Skyrim review @ Gamebanshee

Asdraguuhl said:

No it isn't. The concept of an RPG is very broad and RPG's can consist of many different elements, which are sometimes mutually exclusive.

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Actually it is. RPG stands for Role Playing Game. Is Skyrim a sandbox enough game where you can effectively RP a character in the setting provided? The answer is yes, and you can do so fairly well in fact. Anything else is a artificial requirement put on by a individual due to personal bias. By definition Skyrim is a CRPG.

HiddenX said:

The CRPG-Meter system tries to be fair:
CRPG-Meter for Skyrim

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Thanks, that was an interesting analysis. I remember seeing that thread a while ago, but I never read it because I don't really care about how much of a "true RPG" a game like Skyrim is in order to enjoy it. After reading it, it appears I was wrong about what the "CRPG-meter" is all about - it's more of an in-depth scoring of all the core components/mechanics of Skyrim from a role-playing fan's perspective rather than an argument about whether it's a "real" RPG or not. The "CRPG meter review" seems very fair without going into complete extremes or unwarranted nit-picking. It would be great to see more written analysis to go along with the individual categories.

Of course, I imagine that the meter could be used "for evil" if it fell into the wrong hands , but this particular case is about the best (or at least the most fair) summary of Skyrim I've seen thus far. The only thing I would personally add is an "overall enjoyment/fun factor," as Skyrim would score quite high there for me, but i suppose that would be way too subjective to use in the scoring system.

Harlequin said:

Actually it is. RPG stands for Role Playing Game. Is Skyrim a sandbox enough game where you can effectively RP a character in the setting provided? The answer is yes, and you can do so fairly well in fact. Anything else is a artificial requirement put on by a individual due to personal bias. By definition Skyrim is a CRPG.

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You are missing my point. I never claimed that Skyrim is not an RPG. By saying that "Skyrim is a love letter to RPG gaming" I interpret that as saying that the "format" in which it is delivered is what RP is about and what RPGs aspire to be, and this is clearly BS.

Fluent said:

I am just genuinely shocked when I read negative opinions of Skyrim.

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The opposite also occurs. I just cannot understand how someone can be so enamoured with the game like you. One thing is to really like a game and put in your top 10 but it is another thing to claim that a game is pure perfection in all areas and assuming that the default situation is that all gamers share that opinion and dismissing all other opinions as mere nitpicking. (It is fanboyism in its purest form).

Fluent said:

It's like looking at a girl and thinking she is beautiful. You figure the whole world shares that opinion, but there are a few people who will say she's ugly.

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You couldn't have chosen a better analogy. There have been countless cases of men being madly in love with "average" girls and claiming that they were pure perfection. It is interesting to see how chemistry can affect the mind.

(It seems that you fell victim to one of Cupid's cruel jokes )

Hmm when will people finally realize everybody is different? What someone loves another will hate. That is the reality of things.

That's also the reason why I don't care for critics or award shows. Games or movies I hate always win. But hey there the best games and movies ever right just cause someone says its so?

I guess it all depends upon perception.

Some will find problems with Skyrim while other's will adore it to bits. The former will find the latter delusional and vice versa.

I'm not exactly a contrarian by nature but i am wary of hyperbole. And the ES series , to me at least, is saturated with it.

Morrowind was considered the epitome of RPGs yet i found it bland, boring and so monotonous i gave up despite trying on 3 separate occasions.

Oblivion came along and "dethroned" Morrowind and i was so excited but was left disappointed when i experienced almost the same issues i had with Morrowind.

And now we have Skyrim. To be fair, i have to give it a try before i make any comment and i will (eventually). But I must say that it isn't as gorgeous, ground-breaking and epic as countless editorials seem to indicate.

Hyperbole - the bane of all cynics!

I think in the end that if you like Skyrim, good for you. If you don't, no matter. But we should respect each other's perspective whether it's "perfect" or "broken".

Dr. A said:

I think in the end that if you like Skyrim, good for you. If you don't, no matter. But we should respect each other's perspective whether it's "perfect" or "broken".

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Couldn't have put it any better. Were all guilty of not doing this once or more in our life.

I think some people dont 'get' the skyrim allure are like those who dont care for the traditional D&D tropes and dont get the Baldur's Gate love. Granted, theyre rare in the RPG world (i think our belove Jazzy is one of these strange species) but they tend to shock and awe people w/ seemingly not taking part in the glassy-eyed devotion that most of us have for the D&D infinity engine games.

I'm betting that Dr. A wasnt sitting down at his computer and reading the Morrowind books for hours instead of running quests. He wasnt into the lore and world that someone like myself, who has the books on his portable device so I can read them when stuck in line somewhere. You dont NEED to have a genuine interest in the setting & lore of a world to enjoy a game, but it really helps to enjoy a sandboxy game like Skyrim.

xSamhainx said:

I think some people dont 'get' the skyrim allure are like those who dont care for the traditional D&D tropes and dont get the Baldur's Gate love. Granted, theyre rare in the RPG world (i think our belove Jazzy is one of these strange species) but they tend to shock and awe people w/ seemingly not taking part in the glassy-eyed devotion that most of us have for the D&D infinity engine games.

I'm betting that Dr. A wasnt sitting down at his computer and reading the Morrowind books for hours instead of running quests. He wasnt into the lore and world that someone like myself, who has the books on his portable device so I can read them when stuck in line somewhere. You dont NEED to have a genuine interest in the setting & lore of a world to enjoy a game, but it really helps to enjoy a sandboxy game like Skyrim.

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Actually xSamhainx, while it's true that i don't read into the lore the way u do; I love the Icewind Dale series, Baldur's Gate series and Neverwinter Nights because i liked reading up on the lore of the little artifacts I found scattered around the world.

Also I love the intelligently and fantastically structured worlds in Planescape: Torment. I love the humor, whimsical and distinctive art style of Divine Divinity.

And I love the punishing difficulty and rich world of Gothic 1 & 2.

I like sandbox games like the GTA series.

After playing these games, Morrowind just doesn't do it for me I'm sorry - i consider myself an RPG fan but it just seems... at the risk of sounding arrogant...lacking.

There is something strange going on… Skyrim had an almost (accent on "almost") universally good reception here at RPGWatch. Yet, maybe because of such an universally good reception, those who think that this game is good but not terrific are being portrayed almost as iconoclasts!
Interestingly it's a kind of mirror image of DA2 when people who haven't disliked it enough were often accused of being Bioware's fanboys!

DA2 is a special case, though. Bioware took a somewhat trite and cliche game with great potential to revisit the days of the infinity engine and completely ruined that potential with a shallow about-face. It's not only DA2 that people loathed, but the realization that Bioware is 'different' now.

With Bethesda, you know what you're getting (good or bad).

I agree Drithius. I have disliked DA2 heartily. I was just musing that people holding to broadly the same opinions still retain a tendency to segregate (online as well as in real life) those like-minded groups into sub-factions.

Asdraguuhl said:

You are missing my point. I never claimed that Skyrim is not an RPG. By saying that "Skyrim is a love letter to RPG gaming" I interpret that as saying that the "format" in which it is delivered is what RP is about and what RPGs aspire to be, and this is clearly BS.

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The game was obviously created by RPG lovers for the RPG crowd as a labor of love. That's what it feels like to me. It may be streamlined and accessible but it's still a hardcore RPG, and it makes no compromises in being that. I think RPG fans should rally around Skyrim and use it as a beacon of hope in a bleak future. It shows a company can take their time and build something incredible, instead of just rushing out crap for a quick buck.

And you better believe that 10 million shipped means more companies are going to take lessons on what Skyrim did, and try to put that stuff in their own games. If they do it right and actually improve their games because of it, then we as gamers win.

The opposite also occurs. I just cannot understand how someone can be so enamoured with the game like you. One thing is to really like a game and put in your top 10 but it is another thing to claim that a game is pure perfection in all areas and assuming that the default situation is that all gamers share that opinion and dismissing all other opinions as mere nitpicking. (It is fanboyism in its purest form).

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There are quite a few movies, books, and games that I consider perfect. Other current-gen games I consider perfection would be Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, and Dante's Inferno. Yeah, you may notice something has flaws, or you may want to change something here and there, but overall the bright spots shine so much brighter than the flaws, it makes the flaws seem insignificant and the product is perfect to you. That's how I feel about Skyrim too. I feel those games are just perfect and I wouldn't change a thing. They are 10/10 games.

You couldn't have chosen a better analogy. There have been countless cases of men being madly in love with "average" girls and claiming that they were pure perfection. It is interesting to see how chemistry can affect the mind.

(It seems that you fell victim to one of Cupid's cruel jokes )

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Well, I'm not one to base anything on popular opinion, but this time, popular opinion is on my side and they have it right, so I'll reference it . Most people would agree that Skyrim is beautiful, so if we're all being fooled, then so be it. At least I'm not the only one.

Now the amount of people who call Skyrim perfect or "best game ever" might be lower, but I am just speaking for myself and how it feels to me. I posted my top 10 RPGs of all time list in that thread, and Skyrim came in at number 4 for me, which isn't bad, especially for a new release. But I really think it probably is the best game I've ever played.

xSamhainx said:

I'm betting that Dr. A wasnt sitting down at his computer and reading the Morrowind books for hours instead of running quests. He wasnt into the lore and world that someone like myself, who has the books on his portable device so I can read them when stuck in line somewhere. You dont NEED to have a genuine interest in the setting & lore of a world to enjoy a game, but it really helps to enjoy a sandboxy game like Skyrim.

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And when you appreciate the setting and the lore of a game, oh my god it becomes incredible for you, because you relate to the game world. Suddenly you're THAT much more interested in everything that is happening. It's a great thing. To those who disliked Morrowind but only spent a few hours with it, I would say they haven't played enough to really get a feel for what Morrowind is about. I would also suggest to those people to read the in-game books and try to get familiar with the lore and the setting of the events taking place AND talk to everybody. If you come to like the lore you will then come to love the game.

If, as an RPG fan, you've played Morrowind for countless hours AND you read all the books AND talked to all the NPCs AND explored all the ruins/caves/dungeons, AND you're still not impressed, well I would consider you one of those weird aliens from another planet. You could apply that same ruleset to Skyrim too. They are RPG classics that any RPG fans should be able to appreciate on some level.

If, as an RPG fan, you've played Morrowind for countless hours AND you read all the books AND talked to all the NPCs AND explored all the ruins/caves/dungeons, AND you're still not impressed, well I would consider you one of those weird aliens from another planet. You could apply that same ruleset to Skyrim too. They are RPG classics that any RPG fans should be able to appreciate on some level.

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Well, I tried my hardest to get into the game. I spent several hours. The gameplay was far too monotonous, combat too dreary, levelling system too clunky and journal too messy amongst several other small things. Trying to play for "countless hours" would have bored me out of my damn mind. Bear in mind, that this my OWN personal experience. I did like the dialogue, music and setting. But they just weren't enough to get me hooked.

On the other hand, Gothic 1 got me hooked within the first 15 minutes. And Gothic 2 - wow, it just blew me away.

I'm sorry that I can't enjoy Morrowind (or any other Elder Scrolls game) like you do. But for what it's worth, I'm glad you are having fun with it

I look at like an RPG in a sandbox. You can follow the main story line and watch it unfold, or take a few hours (or more) to just wander the countryside, see what you find and try to get rich as you go along. So far I am having fun going back and forth, picking up the main story when I tire of being a hired hand for the natives.

Fluent said:

And you better believe that 10 million shipped means more companies are going to take lessons on what Skyrim did, and try to put that stuff in their own games. If they do it right and actually improve their games because of it, then we as gamers win.

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For me, it is the exact opposite and Skyrim has made me extremely pessimistic regarding the upcoming Fallout 4. Skyrim does certain things well yet does other things badly, particularly in the areas of narrative, quest design, C&C, NPC depth, dialogues, etc., which are average at best and these are exactly the things that I find most important in my RPG playing experience.

Therefore, I do not consider that ALL gamers win if Skyrim is taken as the model to be copied by other developers. I somehow believe that you do not seem to realize that there are different types of RPGs and more importantly different type of RPG players each having different priorities who value different things.

Sure, if a developer wishes to create a sandbox RPG, then it makes sense if they look at a TES game to get some ideas but it would be a HUGE loss to the RPG genre if all developers would make TES clones.

Also, by seeing your top 10, we can conclude that your are primarily a console gamer and I suspect that you have not been exposed to many PC RPG classics such as the original Fallouts, PS:T, etc. and as a consequence you probably don't know where many of us who "dare" to critisize Skyrim are coming from.

In any case, I think it is not a bad idea if members would write down their favourite RPGs in their public profiles. This way, when a game is being discussed, a forum reader who might be interested in purchasing the game in question and is searching for feedback, would then be able to apply weights to different opinions depending on their commonality in RPG taste.