Long ago and far away...

chamr said:

Careful, now. That's a broad generalization. Not all women suffer from BBS. Many women are not taken to an "ugly place" by a man that is timid or shy.

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This is 100% true, it is broad and generalized and I probably got carried away. I felt a little guilty after Bart posted in because I was the one encouraging him to approach the lady at the club and it didn't work out.

I will say this however, my experience still bears out my comments. The only women I know who are attracted to timid men are extremely domineering people and I always feel bad for their partners, just like I do for a woman who's in a bad relationship. The women I know, who I consider healthy emotionally, all seem to be attracted to confident, go getter, types. I don't actually include myself here because, while I'm generally well adjusted, I am the only creep freak in my circle of friends. It doesn't change that I don't know any women who are looking for meek man as a partner, they usually end in the "why can't I find a guy like you... only not you?" category.

chamr said:

While I agree that confidence is a good thing when asking a woman out, it's a fine line between confidence and arrogance.

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Which I admitted. I don't like arrogant men, no, my creeps must be charming and hide the fact that they're arrogant, self important idiots.

chamr said:

I don't think we do the world any good by encouraging the clichéd, "me-man you-woman ung!" approach. I'd think you of all people, based on your BBS lamenting, would understand that.

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I don't really agree with this completely, although I do in spirit, if you mean what I think you mean. I agree that a return to a pre-feminist era where the man is dominant and what happens in the family, stays in the family, and the woman takes what she gets and is happy, and is expected to be obedient and respectful and quiet and every other pre-lib cliche' is unacceptable. However, I also want men to be men and do manly things, I don't want to be the one who always has to be strong. I got a taste of that first hand and it was a very bitter pill I can tell you. I'm not interested in having another girlfriend in a mansuit.

chamr said:

And I find it curious that you'd interpret dte's "ether and duct tape" joke as virile manhood. Um, isn't that more like a scared, sociopathic, misanthrope?

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:lol: It is. I was sort of grabbing a convenient example to make a point. And I was actually talking about the easy, matter-of-fact way dte just slipped it in to the conversation while Bart was asking for serious advice -- he was such a guy. I don't believe for a minute that abusive, predatory men should be given one single inch of consideration and I won't shed a tear for any of them that really do burn up on a mattress. I've known dte for several years, though, and I took his comment according to my experience with his sense of humor. I have absolutely no doubt, whatsoever that the duct tape comment was made in complete jest.

I find it interesting that while women 'say' they want a man who is kind, gentle, caring, etc, he's NOT the type of 'man' they choose to date. Several years ago, when I was single, I worked with a group of single women, who were always complaining about there being NO nice, decent, SINGLE guys 'out there'!! They'd 'bitch' about their current boyfriend, or lack thereof, but NONE of them ever expressed any interest in ME!!!! I was more of the 'big brother' cry on the shoulder, get advice from, person, but never a potential boyfriend!! Nice guys finish last seemed much more than a cliche to me back then!! What's your explanation Gig?

You know, Mr. Corwin, I really wish I had a lucid answer to that question but, in fact, there are loads of self-help books dedicated to that issue and why we do it and how to overcome it. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said:

Gig said:

I don't know any women who are looking for a meek man as a partner, they usually end in the "why can't I find a guy like you... only not you?" category.

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And I think that's largely where BBS starts. I've had this conversation with people who moan about their partner not treating them right and how there are no decent men. Yet, when they become available and start looking again they reject guy after guy because he 'isn't their type'. When they finally do find someone who is the right type, he's just like the last jerk. Then, nine times out of ten, the woman will turn around with the 'no decent men' thing, rather than admit that she searched out that creep. I do that, and I read the self-help books and I still do that, except I'm willing to admit who's really responsible. I think it comes from wanting to be with a guy who's fun... exciting... and just a teeny dangerous, but still wanting him to be 'kind, gentle, caring, etc'. Those characteristics, however, seem to be mutually exclusive. Most men seem to be either 'kind, gentle, caring, etc' or they're 'fun... exciting... and just a teeny dangerous'. Again, I reiterate, this is my hang-up and in no way implies that the kind man isn't fun and exciting.

I actually managed to find a guy who was wonderful and caring, at least for a while. You may remember him, Michael, because I was quite in love with him for a while during the NFG. It all fell apart when my grandfather passed away. That was a very traumatic time for my family and when I really needed him to be strong for me, he just wasn't able. So there are no guarantees, no matter how you slice it, the kind man may let you down as well.

Still, there are examples that give me hope... Jaz and hubby seem to have it all down and I have a very old and dear friend who has a great marriage of almost 10 years -- she and her husband are so into each other it's inspiring.

As for me, I've been out of the dating scene for a couple of years and I currently have zero desire to get back in the saddle. My last relationship was so bad that it rivals my marriage! So, I'm willing to accept responsibility for having been involved in bad relationships, but that doesn't mean I'm interested in doing anything like that again.

Gig said:

I'm not interested in having another girlfriend in a mansuit.

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:lol: good one.

Fair enough on the rest of that post...

Gig said:

I've known dte for several years, though, and I took his comment according to my experience with his sense of humor. I have absolutely no doubt, whatsoever that the duct tape comment was made in complete jest.

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Yes, of course. Let me be clear: I've known dte for far shorter a time than you, and I'm also sure it was a joke. He may be a right wing freak, but he's no sociopath, although it's hard to tell the difference sometimes with other right wing freaks. (j/k dte, couldn't resist...)

@Corwin: as Gig describes, it's a bit of a balancing act to be compassionate and sweet without seeming too mushy. A hard won lesson for me in my younger days. It takes a bit of work, but balance can be achieved. Just don't expect every woman to appreciate it.

Back to Gig...

Gig said:

And I think that's largely where BBS starts. I've had this conversation with people who moan about their partner not treating them right and how there are no decent men. Yet, when they become available and start looking again they reject guy after guy because he 'isn't their type'. When they finally do find someone who is the right type, he's just like the last jerk. Then, nine times out of ten, the woman will turn around with the 'no decent men' thing, rather than admit that she searched out that creep. I do that, and I read the self-help books and I still do that, except I'm willing to admit who's really responsible. I think it comes from wanting to be with a guy who's fun... exciting... and just a teeny dangerous, but still wanting him to be 'kind, gentle, caring, etc'. Those characteristics, however, seem to be mutually exclusive. Most men seem to be either 'kind, gentle, caring, etc' or they're 'fun... exciting... and just a teeny dangerous'. Again, I reiterate, this is my hang-up and in no way implies that the kind man isn't fun and exciting.

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C'mon. You can't be serious. Surely you know that's just a superficial excuse, the whole "exciting/dangerous" thing. I don't want to claim to be your therapist, but it's pretty text-book psychology that women who choose bad relationship after bad relationship are acting out a sort of self-abuse rooted in some deep-seeded dysfunction usually, though not always, associate with an unhealthy relationship with their fathers. Until they dig into that dysfunction, really understand it, deal with it, and move on, they're doomed to repeat the same self-destructive relationship patterns. It really has nothing to do with a cool tattoo and a motorcycle. Jeez.

Well Gig, while I can be quite fun, and most people consider me to be a total extrovert, I have never been either exciting, or dangerous!! I wonder if the high divorce rate is linked into this discussion somewhere? I've been married now for nearly 25 years, and when necessary, I can be as strong as required; when I was a teacher, I had a reputation for being tough, but fair. As a minister, there were also times when I was a 'hard case'. However, that soft, human, caring side was only ever a heartbeat away, so as chamr said, it's finding the balance that's important. Perhaps you've found yours, but it often takes us men longer!! A 'good' woman can bring out both sides of a 'good' man, so don't give up. Afterall, a couple should complement each other, which is often why opposites attract. You have a very strong personality, which is wonderful. What you NEED then, might be someone with a slightly weaker personality (not a wimpy wuss). You would then have to nurture his strength as part of your partnership, while he nurtures your needs. Relationships are hard work, especially in the early years. You're a lovely person, so I'm sure there's a great guy just waiting for you. Don't close the door, but don't bolt through either.

Sorry chamr, but I believe psychobabble is a load of manure!! Old Siggy was cocaine headed wacko with more problems and hangups than the people he was supposed to be treating!!

chamr said:

I don't want to claim to be your therapist, but it's pretty text-book psychology that women who choose bad relationship after bad relationship are acting out a sort of self-abuse rooted in some deep-seeded dysfunction usually, though not always, associate with an unhealthy relationship with their fathers.

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Ding ding! We have a winner

And this has turned into a vague generalization - there are many of us here who are happily married nice guys who met nice girls. There is not some digital bad / good divider, but more of a continuum - for girls and guys.

chamr said:

And I find it curious that you'd interpret dte's "ether and duct tape" joke as virile manhood. Um, isn't that more like a scared, sociopathic, misanthrope?

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"Virile" might be a little overly kind, but I'm quite sure your three don't apply. I do believe I've been insulted.

Look, this discussion has gotten out of hand and become far more personal and intimate than I'm comfortable with in this kind of forum. This is going to be my last post on the matter.

chamr said:

C'mon. You can't be serious. Surely you know that's just a superficial excuse, the whole "exciting/dangerous" thing. I don't want to claim to be your therapist, but it's pretty text-book psychology that women who choose bad relationship after bad relationship are acting out a sort of self-abuse rooted in some deep-seeded dysfunction usually, though not always, associate with an unhealthy relationship with their fathers.

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That is so flagrantly oversimplified that it's practically a cartoon. In fact I have no relationship with my father whatsoever, I was three when he left, and my mother raised me alone in a household so loving that I never had a hiccup of doubt about it, not once. Not even when my friends were going through their angsty periods of parental loathing. I don't fit neatly into a category on the psycho chart.

The truth is I can't argue this with you. I don't have any answers. All I can do is sit here chirping "You're right. You're right. You're right." forever, just like I do with my friends, because you are somewhat right. However, you being right doesn't give me any special insight into how best to fix what's wrong.

txa1265 said:

There are many of us here who are happily married nice guys who met nice girls.

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I know that. As I said, that's why I'm still hopeful.

txa1265 said:

There is not some digital bad / good divider, but more of a continuum - for girls and guys.

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I appreciate your ability see all the shades of gray, why those shades aren't as clear to me I don't know.

@Corwin: Very well put! Well... except for the utter dismissal of psychology, but that's for another thread.

@dte: I didn't mean you specifically, but the nature of the comment. No insult, beyond jest, intended. Sorry.
P.S. Where'd your "Romomania" sig go? I liked that one. Huge 'Boys fan myself.

@Gig: OK. One last comment, then I'll leave it alone: a happy household without a father does not mean being without a father has no long term consequences for the children.

No blood, no foul. I was overly bitchy this morning.

It was "Romomentum", which was shamelessly pilfered from Randy Galloway of the Fort Worth Telegraph. I switched back to the old JJ classic while responding to the Red Wings' early golf season. Although I'm very happy to have Romo for our QB, I'm not really a Romo fan per se- I'd buy an 82 jersey first- so I kind of hate to jinx the guy with too many catch-phrases.

Gig said:

This is 100% true, it is broad and generalized and I probably got carried away. I felt a little guilty after Bart posted in because I was the one encouraging him to approach the lady at the club and it didn't work out.

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Don't feel guilty a bit, Gig. It was just the little push I needed. I think that if I'd have waited any longer, my chances would even be lower.

Well, I say lets get this thread back on track and try and figure out where Merc has gone again.

Gig, if you ever want to discuss these issues with me privately, you have my private email address; feel free to use it!!

Yes, Gig, and if you wish to talk to a grandmotherly type who spent twenty years chasing really big losers that would be me--I could tell you about the guy who took me along to help him shop for his wedding clothes before our date, or the one that wanted to be a black jazz musician and live a romantic life with me in the ghetto despite being white and middle class (and incidentally, completely lacking in musical ability), or the one who told me he had just one small character flaw(drugs) ....but you get the idea.

Howsomever, that is all blood under the bridge and the good news is I finally achieved a sane but fun relationship in my forties, and we've been happily married for years. It is indeed possible. It CAN be done.

And I'm sure you've had enough of the topic, so I will close my message of hope by saying I didn't even mention the psychos.

@Bart -- thank you, that's very gracious of you.

@Corwin -- Thanks Mr. Corwin, that I'll definitely remember!

@magerette -- Thank you as well. I may well want to swap war stories sometime. I seem to have managed, somehow, to stay psycho free.

dteowner said:

Although I'm very happy to have Romo for our QB, I'm not really a Romo fan per se- I'd buy an 82 jersey first- so I kind of hate to jinx the guy with too many catch-phrases.

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Yeah, I know it's way too early to anoint him or anything, but I have to say he's the most exciting thing I've seen under center for the Cowboys since Roger. I think it will come down to the mental part for him. He's got the skills, the moxie and the wits. Can he stand the pressure?

Hey, I liked Danny White!!

@CM
Still here Just reading though, don't feel like getting involved in deep psychological analysis because simply enough my experience and qualification don't measure up to the level being discussed in here.

Corwin said:

Hey, I liked Danny White!!

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I loved Danny. The classic tragic hero living in the shadow of his greater "father" and never quite reaching the top of the mountain. Poor bastard. But exciting?

Gig said:

I remember you too Ammon777! I'm not going to try to dazzle you with my memory, but I think I remember when you added the third seven to your name.

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Holy crap !!! I dont even remember that !!!

However, I do recall my first post at RPG-Dot. It was:

"Morrowind, Morrowind, where art thou Morrowind."

It was right before Morrowind was released.

And I got a warning from the mods for spam or somefin... lol.

I was kinda embarrassed the next day. I thought it was funny for some reason.