Original Sin - Inteview @ Rock, Paper, Shotgun

JonNik · March 8, 2014

Yeah that does not sound like a huge issue BUT:

It would be nice if they too were either a) possible to disable. But that would mean the game dialogs and or written materials provide enough directions/hints to find the location.

b) Alternatively only appear after the player has discovered the location for the first time after following said directions. And that would make them an acceptable convenience feature (i.e. something to help you pick up a quest again after some time, like a log entry i.e.) and not handholding (or the Devs making their life easier by not having to include the aforementioned directions and possibly incorporate visible landmarks on the world design and so on and so forth

)

Sometimes the "let me mark it at your map" thing from the NPC works I guess (and I am sure is what most esp. modern gamers want) but I would like to do some searching and exploring too by having to figure out directions like we did back in the day :-/

Couchpotato · March 8, 2014

I have no problem with Map markers and quest markers. I don't have the patience to explore, and make my own maps anymore.

I'm going to borrow Infinitron's post from Swen' blog.

J.E. Sawyer can sympathize:

"Okay, I'd really like everyone to read my response to this, because it's important to me.

A lot of people are not great at games. I don't mean they are terrible at them, but they aren't great. They may or may not realize this, but when you get right down to it and see them sit down at a game and start to play, they do pretty well but some stuff just slips by. In RPGs, often that error is a strategic one that you don't immediately get stung by. The poison bites you 10, 20, 30 hours down the road.

I don't know what sort of person you're picturing in your head, but from comments that a lot of people make, I get the feeling you see a moron, a person who doesn't really like games, who isn't enthusiastic about them in the same way that you are. In some cases, this is true. But I've seen hundreds of volunteer and professional testers come and go. Most of them are actually pretty intelligent. They like or love games. They like or love RPGs and have played a bunch of them. They're still not terrific at them. They miss a bunch of things and they make a bunch of mistakes.

Even among hardcore PC RPG fans, there is a wide spectrum of skill, experience, and preference. When I started at Black Isle, I designed a bunch of fights in IWD that only a handful of veteran BG testers could get through. Memorably, I saw a QA tester blow a fuse because a fight in Lower Dorn's Deep was "impossible". When I showed him how I got through it, I started off by having my casters go through six rounds of buffs. "What are you doing?" he asked. "Uh… buffing my party?" This seemed normal to me. DUH YEAH BUFF YOUR PARTY TO HELL AND BACK LOCK AND LOAD PAY ATTENTION FFFFFFFFFF. Despite his high experience with RPGs and Baldur's Gate, he just… never thought of it.

The problem was that the entire fight was balanced around a party that was optimally built and lit up like a Christmas tree from stacked buffs.
That's a combat example, but it really applies across the board: conversation details, reputation loss/gain, etc. Some players really do play as hard as they say they will. They stoically accept the consequences of companion death, of a dialogue node they carelessly picked 8 hours ago, of an Ironman combat that is going down the drain. For those players, the ability to turn off the "in case you missed it…" features is important. I get that and would like to support it as much as we can.

But again, just to be clear, a lot of actual players actually need these things. I'm not saying this because players come up to me and say, "Josh, I need this." I'm saying this because I'll talk to a tester (volunteer or pro) with a ton of RPG experience and later watch him or her play remotely. Or I'll pop open a Let's Play on YouTube from an enthusiastic player and watch how things turn out. Sometimes they ace it, sometimes they don't. Either way, what I see on that monitor doesn't lie."

People have different ways to play it does not make me inferior just because I want an easier experience. I'm glad some designers recognize, and respect how I like to play.

The best option is to allow the player to turn them on or off. That should be a good compromise for everyone. I'm fine with a map with general locations listed.

That way everyone can play how we want. That's all I want and I'm tired of all the causal crap, and idiot gamer comments on the internet. There even on our site. :disappointed:

JonNik · March 8, 2014

Sure having options is great but the game design needs to support it as I was saying (i.e. you can't really just put an option to disable the quest Markers on the Map in Skyrim without making most location very hard if not impossible and a matter of sheer luck to find). That means extra work and not many Developers seem to be motivated (or have the resources) to do it unfortunately…

Obsidian is indeed trying to do some very nice and "in the right way" stuff regarding difficulty tuning in PoE (i.e not a simple HP/DMG slider but designing encounters differently per difficulty level), that I am eager to see if they pan out and how they turn out in the end.

HiddenX · March 8, 2014

Couchpotato said:
I have no problem with Map markers and quest markers. I don't have the patience to explore, and make my own maps anymore.

I'm going to borrow Infinitron's post from Swen' blog.

J.E. Sawyer can sympathize:

"Okay, I'd really like everyone to read my response to this, because it's important to me.

A lot of people are not great at games. I don't mean they are terrible at them, but they aren't great. They may or may not realize this, but when you get right down to it and see them sit down at a game and start to play, they do pretty well but some stuff just slips by. In RPGs, often that error is a strategic one that you don't immediately get stung by. The poison bites you 10, 20, 30 hours down the road.

I don't know what sort of person you're picturing in your head, but from comments that a lot of people make, I get the feeling you see a moron, a person who doesn't really like games, who isn't enthusiastic about them in the same way that you are. In some cases, this is true. But I've seen hundreds of volunteer and professional testers come and go. Most of them are actually pretty intelligent. They like or love games. They like or love RPGs and have played a bunch of them. They're still not terrific at them. They miss a bunch of things and they make a bunch of mistakes.

Even among hardcore PC RPG fans, there is a wide spectrum of skill, experience, and preference. When I started at Black Isle, I designed a bunch of fights in IWD that only a handful of veteran BG testers could get through. Memorably, I saw a QA tester blow a fuse because a fight in Lower Dorn's Deep was "impossible". When I showed him how I got through it, I started off by having my casters go through six rounds of buffs. "What are you doing?" he asked. "Uh… buffing my party?" This seemed normal to me. DUH YEAH BUFF YOUR PARTY TO HELL AND BACK LOCK AND LOAD PAY ATTENTION FFFFFFFFFF. Despite his high experience with RPGs and Baldur's Gate, he just… never thought of it.

The problem was that the entire fight was balanced around a party that was optimally built and lit up like a Christmas tree from stacked buffs.
That's a combat example, but it really applies across the board: conversation details, reputation loss/gain, etc. Some players really do play as hard as they say they will. They stoically accept the consequences of companion death, of a dialogue node they carelessly picked 8 hours ago, of an Ironman combat that is going down the drain. For those players, the ability to turn off the "in case you missed it…" features is important. I get that and would like to support it as much as we can.

But again, just to be clear, a lot of actual players actually need these things. I'm not saying this because players come up to me and say, "Josh, I need this." I'm saying this because I'll talk to a tester (volunteer or pro) with a ton of RPG experience and later watch him or her play remotely. Or I'll pop open a Let's Play on YouTube from an enthusiastic player and watch how things turn out. Sometimes they ace it, sometimes they don't. Either way, what I see on that monitor doesn't lie."

People have different ways to play it does not make me inferior just because I want an easier experience. I'm glad some designers recognize, and respect how I like to play.

The best option is to allow the player to turn them on or off. That should be a good compromise for everyone. I'm fine with a map with general locations listed.

That way everyone can play how we want. That's all I want and I'm tired of all the causal crap, and idiot gamer comments on the internet. There even on our site.

I don't have a problem with in-game helping for casual players.
But like you said, in-game helping should be optional.
And some selectable difficulty levels are helping to satisfy different target groups, too.

I have only a problem with games that are casual by design with most roleplaying elements cut out.

azarhal · March 8, 2014

Couchpotato said:
I have no problem with Map markers and quest markers. I don't have the patience to explore, and make my own maps anymore.

I'm going to borrow Infinitron's post from Swen' blog.

J.E. Sawyer can sympathize:

"Okay, I'd really like everyone to read my response to this, because it's important to me.

A lot of people are not great at games. I don't mean they are terrible at them, but they aren't great. They may or may not realize this, but when you get right down to it and see them sit down at a game and start to play, they do pretty well but some stuff just slips by. In RPGs, often that error is a strategic one that you don't immediately get stung by. The poison bites you 10, 20, 30 hours down the road.

I don't know what sort of person you're picturing in your head, but from comments that a lot of people make, I get the feeling you see a moron, a person who doesn't really like games, who isn't enthusiastic about them in the same way that you are. In some cases, this is true. But I've seen hundreds of volunteer and professional testers come and go. Most of them are actually pretty intelligent. They like or love games. They like or love RPGs and have played a bunch of them. They're still not terrific at them. They miss a bunch of things and they make a bunch of mistakes.

Even among hardcore PC RPG fans, there is a wide spectrum of skill, experience, and preference. When I started at Black Isle, I designed a bunch of fights in IWD that only a handful of veteran BG testers could get through. Memorably, I saw a QA tester blow a fuse because a fight in Lower Dorn's Deep was "impossible". When I showed him how I got through it, I started off by having my casters go through six rounds of buffs. "What are you doing?" he asked. "Uh… buffing my party?" This seemed normal to me. DUH YEAH BUFF YOUR PARTY TO HELL AND BACK LOCK AND LOAD PAY ATTENTION FFFFFFFFFF. Despite his high experience with RPGs and Baldur's Gate, he just… never thought of it.

The problem was that the entire fight was balanced around a party that was optimally built and lit up like a Christmas tree from stacked buffs.
That's a combat example, but it really applies across the board: conversation details, reputation loss/gain, etc. Some players really do play as hard as they say they will. They stoically accept the consequences of companion death, of a dialogue node they carelessly picked 8 hours ago, of an Ironman combat that is going down the drain. For those players, the ability to turn off the "in case you missed it…" features is important. I get that and would like to support it as much as we can.

But again, just to be clear, a lot of actual players actually need these things. I'm not saying this because players come up to me and say, "Josh, I need this." I'm saying this because I'll talk to a tester (volunteer or pro) with a ton of RPG experience and later watch him or her play remotely. Or I'll pop open a Let's Play on YouTube from an enthusiastic player and watch how things turn out. Sometimes they ace it, sometimes they don't. Either way, what I see on that monitor doesn't lie."

People have different ways to play it does not make me inferior just because I want an easier experience. I'm glad some designers recognize, and respect how I like to play.

The best option is to allow the player to turn them on or off. That should be a good compromise for everyone. I'm fine with a map with general locations listed.

That way everyone can play how we want. That's all I want and I'm tired of all the causal crap, and idiot gamer comments on the internet. There even on our site.

That comment from Josh is more about not making the game with only the power-gamers in mind than any hand-holding. I believe he posted that in a thread complaining about him trying to make POE balanced so you could go through it with a full party of paladins (which he mentioned in a video) and people going on saying that it's going to be too easy if that is allowed.

Basically, powergamers are preemptively complaining that the game is going to be too easy because players are going to be allowed choices in term of party builds...

Couchpotato · March 8, 2014

azarhal said:
That comment from Josh is more about not making the game with only the power-gamers in mind than any hand-holding.

What he said fits the point I was trying to make.

Alrik Fassbauer · March 8, 2014

azarhal said:
Basically, powergamers are preemptively complaining that the game is going to be too easy because players are going to be allowed choices in term of party builds…

And, even worse, that some players might actually be able to achieve something they want to have reserved for themselves ...

Like in this quote :

Carnifex said:
Heck, we killed contested mobs not because we needed them but to prevent others from getting into what we considered our zone!

TheMadGamer · March 8, 2014

Couchpotato said:
I have no problem with Map markers and quest markers. I don't have the patience to explore, and make my own maps anymore.

I'm in the same boat. Sven indicates that there will automatic map notations for locations discovered, not map markers of go-here-and-talk-to-this-guy OR go-here-and-kill-the-bad-guy-in-this-cave.

The way he describes it is something I'd attempt to do manually but lack of time and just tiredness after decades of having mapped out games this is just fine with me. I'm playing M&MX right now and I appreciate the way maps work in that game - some things are automatically noted and the rest I can notate myself right on the game map.

However, I do understand that some people just want ZERO help so for them, I'd suggest getting on Larian's forum and voicing their opinions ASAP - the way Sven and his team work, it's likely you can get a feature in the UI to disable it all.

JonNik · March 8, 2014

Well personally I'd be a-OK if it is indeed marking after discovery as I was saying.
Not sure it is clearcut from that twitter sequence but I guess the alternative would be actual "Quest Markers" for all true purposes so that probably makes sense.

I don't really expect any actual "handholding" or catering to any audience other than people that truly love RPGs from this game (so definitely not worried). Trying to stay away from spoilers but every little bit I am reading in the updates seems to indicate that this one is shaping up in just the way I would have wanted

TheMadGamer · March 8, 2014

JonNik said:
I don't really expect any actual "handholding" or catering to any audience other than people that truly love RPGs from this game (so definitely not worried).

I'm often puzzled why there is so much hand holding in games in this day and age of the internet where in 3 second you can google or youtube an answer if you're stuck.

Some hand-holding back in the 80s and 90s would have been nice, when some RPGs had really tough puzzles and unless you had a friend who figured it out, you were either stuck or if it was available (and that's a BIG if) you could call a help line for $10 to get a hint - at least if you played the game within 6 months to a year after it was released, before the hint line went away.

But these days with the internet, I just don't see a need for in-game hand holding.

JonNik · March 8, 2014

Well I guess that looks like a fair question from our perspective here, but I Imagine that for the suits (mainly the publishers but some times in the Dev side too) it boils down to serving consumer expectation. Because that is what (mainstream) games are more or less today: A consumer product.

So after games exploded outside of their niche (mainly through the increasingly popular adoption of consoles) and became a thing of mass appeal (and got a foothold on the living room and not in one's crummy PC desk

) they had from a business perspective to conform to certain rules about how a streamlined successful consumer product needs to be packaged. That means be simple to set up and use as a minimum. And no the consumer should damn not right have to search the internets to make sure his product (bought with his hard earned money! just read a few product reviews on amazon i.e.) works as intended and that, alas, in the case of games means guaranteed, trouble free fun and gratification (or else how am I gonna get my damn moneys worth!)…

Seriously though, all joking aside, targeting the lowest common denominator (and yes there are people out there that can't be arsed or feel entitled not to have to do a simple Google search) and making sure about the broadest possible appeal (that will guarantee ROI of a risky investment) is 101 stuff for these guys. And the Swens of this world better be prepared to make a very big splash with their game's acclaim and sales if they want to be taken seriously by the powers that be

Besides, a Google search will probably lead to place like this or the Codex I imagine. Can't base your product's success on a bunch of opinionated old nerds now can you ?

TheMadGamer · March 8, 2014

@JonNik

I don't disagree with your analysis and conclusions. Though popularity of games like Dark Souls may indicate that there is more than just a niche of gamers who want real challenge.

Not only does Dark Souls require quite a bit of trial and error but the story too takes work to 'decode.' I keep wondering if and when gamers are going to tire of superficial eye candy games with zero challenge and if games like Dark Souls could, maybe, possibly be the beginning of a sizeable demographic wanting more? I can hope and dream anyway...

JonNik · March 8, 2014

Don't get me wrong here.

I don't adopt these guys viewpoints and goals. I am actually supporting the views of guys like Swen (and indeed I agree with you) that there is more than a small niche out there wanting something more substantial (and something made with actual passion and creativity). Its an old debate after all and a discussion often recycled within gaming communities such as this one. But to try and convince the suits and their business analysts is another ballpark altogether.

Now, maybe success of a few of the high profile KS projects may make an impression. Also, having MMX come out from under Ubisoft did make some of us raise an eyebrow I am sure i.e. (Now finishing Blackguards I am struggling with the fact that I may have to cave and give Ubi my money

May still wait for the next Steam Sale though).

Dark Souls is not a bad example but it is not a very good one either imho. It seems to be a game riding its own myth at the moment. Built on how hard the game is and how "cool" and "hardcore" you are when you beat it and that is not a particular good indicator of people wanting deeper more substantial games.

I rarely see anyone praising its design/mechanics and the particular care the designers took to mesh all the elements together and desing their world, but most of its previews and fanbase seem concerned about if the game is still hard enough. And while I have advocated against watering down and compromising the design. Difficulty for its sake (and apart from as an equal element of the other aspects I have often cited as my main draws) is completely useless to me. (I also don't mind From trying to remove some of the opaqueness and easing new players in or adding an tiny bit more exposition in #2 either)

But yeah accepting that challenge and total lack of handholding can be satisfying and fun is a good first step

Alrik Fassbauer · March 9, 2014

TheMadGamer said:
I'm often puzzled why there is so much hand holding in games in this day and age of the internet where in 3 second you can google or youtube an answer if you're stuck.

In the other Larian thread there was this reply posted : http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s0reu1

Read it thriough, it is quite interesting.

wolfing · March 9, 2014

I'm one that needs markers. I have a really bad memory. Some people can go to some place after they've gone there once, not me, I need to go like 3 times before I can go there without a map (and if I don't go again for a month, I probably need to hit the GPS again).

To me that's also part of the player-character wall. My character can ask anybody "where's the temple?" and he'll get a response. That doesn't necessarily have to be coded in the game, it's just an abstraction to me. A good approach would be to have markers appear in the map when they're relevant, reflecting the act of my character/party asking around for something specific (like in D&D sending the charismatic thief/bard to "gather info").

TomRon · March 9, 2014

wolfing said:
I'm one that needs markers. I have a really bad memory. Some people can go to some place after they've gone there once, not me, I need to go like 3 times before I can go there without a map (and if I don't go again for a month, I probably need to hit the GPS again).

Map markers in that regard are fine, one of my minor annoyances with MMX was the fact that the game DIDN'T record where trainers you had already found were (something the earlier games had). If I've already found something it's perfectly fine it's marked on my map. What I don't want is TES style markers showing me where to go. But that's not what Swen is talking about either, so NP.

Ihaterpg · March 9, 2014

Exploration and find goals or locations or quests triggers isn't a simple matter of having cursors or not, optional or not, and having quick answers through a internet search.

It requires a lot of design, paths hints, NPC hints, partial guidances, and many more trick to not make exploration a pure systematic blinded exploration. That said it's also an exploration trick to trap the player in a more limited area to ensure he finds what he have to find. It's not easy to design and it's not quick to design. And the feedback from players is certainly low about a good design of this. It started with arrows on NPC to pinpoint quests givers and quickly ended in compass arrows.

No way it's fine because it's crap exploration.

How many game with a good exploration since a rather long time? Eschalon Book 3 recently did a rather good job. Before that I don't even remember and certainly not Skyrim that I quote only because it's the more fresh reference for many players not because it's a total crap for exploration, it shows good improvements on that matter when compared with Oblivion, not sure when compared with Fallout 3 and certainly not when compared with Morrowind.

About internet search, that's certainly a large part of tricks and puzzles vanishing from RPG. Because most players will quickly give up any mind search to replace it with an internet search. The result is the feedback from players on quality of tricks/puzzles design is very low.

EDIT: And I doubt Dark Soul is a counter example because it's more its action difficulty that made it popular, for the tricks most players certainly do quick internet search and for story complexity or lack of clarity it's most probably that most players just don't care in game until it's about to argue in forums.

JDR13 · March 9, 2014

tomasp3n said:
What I don't want is TES style markers showing me where to go. But that's not what Swen is talking about either, so NP.

Yeah, I despise Bethesda's style of hand-holding with the constant pop-ups telling you exactly what to do next and the markers on the compass. One of the first things I do is mod away all the compass markers.

I'd rather not even have a map marker unless an NPC gave me exact directions.

TomRon · March 10, 2014

JDR13 said:
Yeah, I despise Bethesda's style of hand-holding with the constant pop-ups telling you exactly what to do next and the markers on the compass. One of the first things I do is mod away all the compass markers.

I'd rather not even have a map marker unless an NPC gave me exact directions.

Well, playing Skyrim or Oblivion without them seems rather unpractical since there's no replacement mechanic. But I prefer Morrowinds system where you got directions instead. I do remember having to google some places I just couldn't find though...

JDR13 · March 10, 2014

tomasp3n said:
Well, playing Skyrim or Oblivion without them seems rather unpractical since there's no replacement mechanic. But I prefer Morrowinds system where you got directions instead. I do remember having to google some places I just couldn't find though…

Well yeah, you obviously need some guidance in games as large as TES. I just wish it wasn't so blatant.

Like wolfing mentions above, it would be nice if map markers only appeared after asking directions in-game. At least that would make it a little more realistic. Compass markers for landmarks and enemies should be something that can be toggled on/off.

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