Israeli troops admit murder and pillaging in Gaza

Corwin · March 22, 2009

He's got you there Damian; you can't both have your cake and eat it. While seeing things from an alternative point of view is valuable in many ways someone like you (and me) with strong opinions will always be judged to be speaking from our known position unless we specifically state we are doing otherwise. That's often fun too, but rarely necessary in these forums!!

Thoth · March 23, 2009

They should have both sides pick a champion and then duel best of three in Street Fighter 2. Winner gets all

Damian Mahadevan · March 23, 2009

Corwin said:
He's got you there Damian; you can't both have your cake and eat it. While seeing things from an alternative point of view is valuable in many ways someone like you (and me) with strong opinions will always be judged to be speaking from our known position unless we specifically state we are doing otherwise. That's often fun too, but rarely necessary in these forums!!

I realize that now. But its something i have to be a lot more careful in what i write then, since i have a habit of trying to write as little as possible, it's kind of hard. >_<

blatantninja · March 23, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
It's the palestinians(HAMAAS) fault that civilians are getting attacked. They attacked from civilian locations so that the israeli troops wouldnt fire back. Now they are fed up and are attacking civilian targets. If Hamas stuck to proper rules of engagement this wouldnt have happened,

That's probably the most asinine response I've ever heard in regards to this conflict.

blatantninja · March 23, 2009

Pladio said:
First of all, that is not a whole lot of collateral damage in the most densely populated place in the world.
Second and very important too is the fact that all of that did get the front page and were on all the news reports, so your point is very well moot.

It's not a lot of total kills certainly, but the percentage of civilians is disturbingly high.

blatantninja · March 23, 2009

Pladio said:
So you believe that the US would do whatever AIPAC commands them to do ?

Of course not. I said they have significant influence.

Give me a break! AIPAC is a lobby group like all others and they have influence, but if the majority of the people would actually be against it and there would be no interest for the US in it, then the US would certainly not back Israel.

They are a VERY powerful lobby group. And don't forget that in general, public policy leads media bias which ultimately shapes public perception.

Israel however is being backed by much more than just AIPAC, but by lots of conservative (right) republicans and still many democrats too. A lot of the American people support Israel as people are afraid of losing one of the Middle East's allies to the US.

If the average American read an objective report of what has gone on in that area for the past 60 years, there would be a lot less support. You can't isolate support or lobbying or whatever.

blatantninja · March 23, 2009

Pladio said:
Then if you drop Israel, just like that, you'd not only be hated by the Arab world, but none of your Eastern European allies would even trust you anymore as whenever a situation gets coarse you'll abandon them, as is actually what happened in Georgia.

The Arab world will keep hating you since you still have troops not only in Iraq but Afghanistan as well.

I have no idea why you're talking about the creation of Israel now, but alright.

The point I think he was making is that if we had stayed out of it, we'd be a lot better off. There is no doubt that we are a bit screwed in regards as to what to do. What we COULD do is twist Israel's arm, like we did in the 90's, to treat the Palestinians like human beings and slowly build some report with the moderate elements of the middle east.

blatantninja · March 23, 2009

Pladio said:
What about the suicide bombings until they were blocked by walls and check-points ?
I think I even once posted a list of Hamas suicide bombings since the Oslo Accords up until the start of the Intifada.

Don't make them look any better than they are. They kill civilians and military targets as if they were the same and they'll go for the most casualties whenever they can.

Even before the wall, their ability to strike Israeli military targets was severely limited. I'm no fan of suicide bombings, but again, they are fighting the only war they can. They simply don't have the option to fight a more conventional war and haven't for a long time. Desperate people do desperate things.

blatantninja · March 23, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
Well how long does he have to put up with the rock throwing, they put up with their attacks for so long before they attacked. And civilians did put Hamas into power. So they only got themselves to blame. I wouldnt argue against the
Palestinians if they didnt.

The civilians put Hamas into power because their lives basically sucked and Hamas was the only one doing anything about. If Israel had been waging any sort of hearts and minds campaign over the past 60 years instead of isolate and let rot, there might be some support from the Palestinians for someone other than Hamas.

Pladio · March 23, 2009

blatantninja said:
It's not a lot of total kills certainly, but the percentage of civilians is disturbingly high.

That depends on what numbers you decide to follow. (which range from 30-70% of casualties)

Damian Mahadevan · March 23, 2009

blatantninja said:
The civilians put Hamas into power because their lives basically sucked and Hamas was the only one doing anything about. If Israel had been waging any sort of hearts and minds campaign over the past 60 years instead of isolate and let rot, there might be some support from the Palestinians for someone other than Hamas.

But Hamas is a terrorist organisation and a long time enemy of Israel. They use civilian locations to attack Israel. Even though there arent many places you can attack from Gaza that isnt civilian, my point is that they shouldnt be attacking them at all. They should be using global pressure to get things done in there instead of firing rockets especially since they are outclasses in terms of warfare. There are peaceful ways of getting things done. Israel is only doing what they are taught under jewish law to do when faced with terrorism ie to wipe out the terrorists. It could have been far worse if it werent for political pressure for peace.

The last thing we need is a war between Israel and Gaza.

Pladio · March 23, 2009

blatantninja said:
Of course not. I said they have significant influence.
They are a VERY powerful lobby group. And don't forget that in general, public policy leads media bias which ultimately shapes public perception. If the average American read an objective report of what has gone on in that area for the past 60 years, there would be a lot less support. You can't isolate support or lobbying or whatever.

Even then, politicians still have the option to go against it if they really want to. There's enough people who are against Israel. An important reason why there's such a great amount of people supporting Israel is also that a great deal of the American people are afraid of the Muslim way of life and anti-democratization that might follow once they would get power in some places in the world.

Scaring people of something is a good way to make them support something else.

Rithrandil · March 23, 2009

blatantninja said:
The point I think he was making is that if we had stayed out of it, we'd be a lot better off. There is no doubt that we are a bit screwed in regards as to what to do. What we COULD do is twist Israel's arm, like we did in the 90's, to treat the Palestinians like human beings and slowly build some report with the moderate elements of the middle east.

Yeah. That's more of what I was aiming for. Obviously we can't just completely cut Israel loose, burn the bridge behind us, and walk off into the sunset arm-in-arm with our new best friend, the Arab street. But there's a pretty clear case to be made that our full-throated constant support of Israel has done us a lot of harm - it's why most of the career State Department people were against it in 1947.

Hell, I don't even think the moderate Middle Eastern elements expect us/want us to abandon Israel - I think they just want us to use our considerable leverage over them to make Israel come to the table in good faith like we used to.

Pladio · March 23, 2009

blatantninja said:
Even before the wall, their ability to strike Israeli military targets was severely limited. I'm no fan of suicide bombings, but again, they are fighting the only war they can. They simply don't have the option to fight a more conventional war and haven't for a long time. Desperate people do desperate things.

I'm sure that's true, but saying that they're only fighting what they can is basically untrue. The Irish fought military targets and police for a long time and there were only several cases in the total conflict of civilian casualties.

magerette · March 23, 2009

Pladio said:
I'm sure that's true, but saying that they're only fighting what they can is basically untrue. The Irish fought military targets and police for a long time and there were only several cases in the total conflict of civilian casualties.

Are you talking about the IRA?
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/17/w...-civilian-deaths-in-its-30-year-campaign.html

Of the 1,800 people killed by the I.R.A. since the late 1960's, about 650 were civilians rather than members of security forces or paramilitary organizations.

That's a little over one-third of the total casualties.

Rithrandil · March 23, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
But Hamas is a terrorist organisation and a long time enemy of Israel. They use civilian locations to attack Israel. Even though there arent many places you can attack from Gaza that isnt civilian, my point is that they shouldnt be attacking them at all. They should be using global pressure to get things done in there instead of firing rockets especially since they are outclasses in terms of warfare. There are peaceful ways of getting things done. Israel is only doing what they are taught under jewish law to do when faced with terrorism ie to wipe out the terrorists. It could have been far worse if it werent for political pressure for peace.

The last thing we need is a war between Israel and Gaza.

They've been in a war for 60 years.

Besides, Hamas is odd in that it is more than a terrorist organization. It is the legitimate democratically-elected ruling party of Palestine (well, Gaza). It has been a provider of social services for decades. It sends kids to school. It does a lot of things that endears it to the local population. And as a side note, they at least have stopped suicide bombings since 2005. Small victories for sanity, I guess.

It's very rare that peaceful movements work without a real or imagined threat of violence behind them. I actually can't think of any off the top of my head. Besides, do you really expect a group of people who have been evicted from their homes and have been living in utter poverty and squalor to smile and be happy towards people they view as invaders and occupiers? That's not how the real world works. I'm not trying to justify the actions of Hamas and other similar organizations but what they are doing is the logical consequence of Israeli policy - something people in the Israeli government are fully aware of.

As BN just said, Israel hasn't been doing a hearts and minds style campaign. It's the only way to win these sort of conflicts. The British did it in Malaya (although there are many differences between these two conflicts the lessons learned apply). The British failed to do it in Aden. The French failed to do it in Indochina. We failed to do it in Vietnam. My main complaint with Israeli policy is that there is a body of literature and experience on how to do this sort of thing and they have usually ended up ignoring it. And what happened when they had someone in power who generally and truly wanted peace? Yitzhak Rabin was killed by his own people.

Damian Mahadevan · March 23, 2009

Rithrandil said:
They've been in a war for 60 years.

Besides, Hamas is odd in that it is more than a terrorist organization. It is the legitimate democratically-elected ruling party of Palestine (well, Gaza). It has been a provider of social services for decades. It sends kids to school. It does a lot of things that endears it to the local population. And as a side note, they at least have stopped suicide bombings since 2005. Small victories for sanity, I guess.

It's very rare that peaceful movements work without a real or imagined threat of violence behind them. I actually can't think of any off the top of my head. Besides, do you really expect a group of people who have been evicted from their homes and have been living in utter poverty and squalor to smile and be happy towards people they view as invaders and occupiers? That's not how the real world works. I'm not trying to justify the actions of Hamas and other similar organizations but what they are doing is the logical consequence of Israeli policy - something people in the Israeli government are fully aware of.

As BN just said, Israel hasn't been doing a hearts and minds style campaign. It's the only way to win these sort of conflicts. The British did it in Malaya (although there are many differences between these two conflicts the lessons learned apply). The British failed to do it in Aden. The French failed to do it in Indochina. We failed to do it in Vietnam. My main complaint with Israeli policy is that there is a body of literature and experience on how to do this sort of thing and they have usually ended up ignoring it. And what happened when they had someone in power who generally and truly wanted peace? Yitzhak Rabin was killed by his own people.

You dont think that if enough people protest in the streets of Gaza the world wouldnt sit up and take notice? I understand that people like to use violence against violence, but when they are outclassed in military power , it is foolish to do so.

Rithrandil · March 23, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
You dont think that if enough people protest in the streets of Gaza the world wouldnt sit up and take notice? I understand that people like to use violence against violence, but when they are outclassed in military power , it is foolish to do so.

They have been. And the world has taken notice. But taking notice doesn't automatically fix the problem. Some countries (including the U.S.) have been trying to reach some sort of peace for decades now. Hasn't helped. This isn't a case of everyone in Gaza and the West Bank holding hands and U2 coming down to play a rock benefit so the world suddenly realizes how bad things are and pitches in to solve the issue. The world knows how bad it is for the Palestinians. The world knows how bad it is for the Israelis. The world knows this needs to end for everyone's sake because this one conflict in such a small area of the world bleeds over into so many other issues that it is frightening to say the least.

There are also a number of parties who have a stake in making sure this conflict lasts as long as possible. Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda and its myriad divisions throughout the world, and other groups use this situation to fill out their ranks. Iran uses this situation to funnel weapons and supplies to Hamas and Hezbollah via Syria in its attempt to become the local hegemon.

And yes, it might be foolish to fight when clearly outmatched, but there are more important things then staying alive.

There is a very real (and justified) fear that if Israel feels secure it will believe it has no need to negotiate a peace settlement. What it's going to take is an Israeli leader who wants this to end, a Palestinian leader who wants this to end, and an American president who is willing to sink all of his efforts into facilitating peace. So far none of these three elements has existed at the same time.

Damian Mahadevan · March 23, 2009

Let me put it this way, when a group of school bullies attack you, do you tell the principal or do you fight back and then complain they beat you up?

I think world politics is a much stronger force than what you give credit for.

Thoth · March 23, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
You dont think that if enough people protest in the streets of Gaza the world wouldnt sit up and take notice? I understand that people like to use violence against violence, but when they are outclassed in military power , it is foolish to do so.

I have to agree. Martin Luther King Jr. is a perfect example of using non-violence successfully against violence. If the Palestinians suddenly flooded the streets and peacefully demanded rights and whatever else they wanted, I can't imagine the world not doing anything. Then again... the Palestinians seem to want to see Israel destroyed rather then have equal rights and representation, so I don't know.

Israeli troops admit murder and pillaging in Gaza

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