Yes but BG 2 is to BG what Empire Strikes Back is to Star Wars
The original was great but the sequel had more drama, more twists, better (more polished or advanced) special effects, and more memorable moments!
Gamezone's Top 10 Western cRPGs
- Thread starter Konjad
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Yes but BG 2 is to BG what Empire Strikes Back is to Star Wars
The original was great but the sequel had more drama, more twists, better (more polished or advanced) special effects, and more memorable moments!
Yes but BG 2 is to BG what Empire Strikes Back is to Star Wars
The original was great but the sequel had more drama, more twists, better (more polished or advanced) special effects, and more memorable moments!
Perhaps, but the original is what blazed the path, and I think that's why it's where it is.
Many people actually preferred BG1. I personally consider them as equals.
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pibbur
Guest
A Warning: Long, really boring rant coming.
You don't have to go far, I consider PS:T the best game I've ever played. I also enjoyed Oblivion very much. I don't agree that the game was bland, personality less, but there were a lot of general weaknesses like the infamous levelling of enemies and treasure, inconsistent voice acting, useless radiant AI. It didn't matter to me, I just ignored it. As for the RPG weaknesses (mainly little conesquence of choices, the possibility to be an expert in everything) I did what I always do when playing RPG, I add the values of my character to the game. So I didn't join the Dark Brotherhood, even if I could, because my character was basically a good guy. I didn't fight in the Arena. I rejected several quests because my character didn't want to do them. And I selected not to do any powergaming (which I unfortunately did when I played Morrowind, I regret that). So while the game in itself wasn't great RPG wise, as a sandbox game it was a very good vehicle for roleplaying. (The same can be said about WoW).
Exactly.
Now let me elaborate a bit on the impossibility of creating even approximately objective rankings. (Here comes the boring part).
First, it's not clear what "The best 10 rpg games" mean. Is it the games with the best RPG properties, or is it the overall best games among RPG's? The answer to that will greatly affect the ranking of a game like "Risen" which, while the RPG is (IMO) strong, is a bit rough around the edges. And Gothic itself is an even better example: A good game RPG-wise, but with a cumbersome interface, which did alienate a lot of players.
Second, there are a lot of properties of a game, which will affect ranking, but which is impossible to judge objectively. I'll give you two examples.
1. In Risen there are several strong enemies in the swamp where you start the game. Which means that if you stray from the path, you will get killed until you advance a few levels. This has been discussed in another thread here. Is that a good thing, or a bad thing? There's no objective answer to that. Personally, I like that. But it does make the game less forgiving. Your answer to this will affect how you rank Risen.
2. There are several RPG systems involved: AD&D (which comes in several versions), the Elder Scrolls, The Ultima system, The Gothic system. The RPG system greatly affects how a game is played. AD&D, being a class based system is as I see it, much more restrictive than classless systems (Elder Scrolls, the Gothics,Risen included). Can a mage wear metal armour? Why not? (I don't suggest that you should be able to reach expert level in everything, that IS a weakness in Oblivion) Further, in the Gothics you pay someone to train you when you advance levels, in Elder Scrolls you advance the skills you use. Which approach is the better? How you regard these things may greatly affect how you judge individual RPG's. But I can't see there is an objective answer to what is best among these systems.
3. What about long lasting turn-based fights like in Wizardry 8. compared to real time fights like in Risen? I found that the fights in Wizardry added nice tactical opportunities, but a lot of players hated it and stopped playing the game. I Risen the outcome of a fight depends not only on the skills of your character, coordination and reflexes is also important. This makes fights more intense, but for some this is a serious RPG sin, results of fights should only depend on the properties of your character. Again, I find it hard to find an objective answer.
Well, that was 3 examples.
One final, and possibly completely incorrect issue. Assuming that it is possible to create objective rankings, and that some reviewers actually do this, it should be possible to find a subset of lists in which there is little variation between them. I have searched the web for top ten lists. I found little consistency, which to me is clear evidence that rankings are in principle subjective.
END OF LONG RANT!!! I did warn you.
You might want it so, but actually I think that claim is unreasonable. We are not the target audience for places like Gamezone and we're in the the minority. Which is why I go to places like Rpgwatch in stead of Gamezone for the information I want.
You don't have to go far, I consider PS:T the best game I've ever played. I also enjoyed Oblivion very much. I don't agree that the game was bland, personality less, but there were a lot of general weaknesses like the infamous levelling of enemies and treasure, inconsistent voice acting, useless radiant AI. It didn't matter to me, I just ignored it. As for the RPG weaknesses (mainly little conesquence of choices, the possibility to be an expert in everything) I did what I always do when playing RPG, I add the values of my character to the game. So I didn't join the Dark Brotherhood, even if I could, because my character was basically a good guy. I didn't fight in the Arena. I rejected several quests because my character didn't want to do them. And I selected not to do any powergaming (which I unfortunately did when I played Morrowind, I regret that). So while the game in itself wasn't great RPG wise, as a sandbox game it was a very good vehicle for roleplaying. (The same can be said about WoW).
Get someone who KNOWS RPGs to write about them. As was said above, there was no mention of the Ultimas. No mention of the Wizardry. I cannot believe Fable and ME are better RPG experiences than Arcanum.
I've played some FPS and Strategy games in my lifetime but very sporadically so I would not feel qualified to write about them much less make a list of the 10 best.
But yes, I guess this is why those lists are fun to come across… more debate fodder
Exactly.
Now let me elaborate a bit on the impossibility of creating even approximately objective rankings. (Here comes the boring part).
First, it's not clear what "The best 10 rpg games" mean. Is it the games with the best RPG properties, or is it the overall best games among RPG's? The answer to that will greatly affect the ranking of a game like "Risen" which, while the RPG is (IMO) strong, is a bit rough around the edges. And Gothic itself is an even better example: A good game RPG-wise, but with a cumbersome interface, which did alienate a lot of players.
Second, there are a lot of properties of a game, which will affect ranking, but which is impossible to judge objectively. I'll give you two examples.
1. In Risen there are several strong enemies in the swamp where you start the game. Which means that if you stray from the path, you will get killed until you advance a few levels. This has been discussed in another thread here. Is that a good thing, or a bad thing? There's no objective answer to that. Personally, I like that. But it does make the game less forgiving. Your answer to this will affect how you rank Risen.
2. There are several RPG systems involved: AD&D (which comes in several versions), the Elder Scrolls, The Ultima system, The Gothic system. The RPG system greatly affects how a game is played. AD&D, being a class based system is as I see it, much more restrictive than classless systems (Elder Scrolls, the Gothics,Risen included). Can a mage wear metal armour? Why not? (I don't suggest that you should be able to reach expert level in everything, that IS a weakness in Oblivion) Further, in the Gothics you pay someone to train you when you advance levels, in Elder Scrolls you advance the skills you use. Which approach is the better? How you regard these things may greatly affect how you judge individual RPG's. But I can't see there is an objective answer to what is best among these systems.
3. What about long lasting turn-based fights like in Wizardry 8. compared to real time fights like in Risen? I found that the fights in Wizardry added nice tactical opportunities, but a lot of players hated it and stopped playing the game. I Risen the outcome of a fight depends not only on the skills of your character, coordination and reflexes is also important. This makes fights more intense, but for some this is a serious RPG sin, results of fights should only depend on the properties of your character. Again, I find it hard to find an objective answer.
Well, that was 3 examples.
One final, and possibly completely incorrect issue. Assuming that it is possible to create objective rankings, and that some reviewers actually do this, it should be possible to find a subset of lists in which there is little variation between them. I have searched the web for top ten lists. I found little consistency, which to me is clear evidence that rankings are in principle subjective.
END OF LONG RANT!!! I did warn you.
P
pibbur
Guest
A long, boring rant. Posting it twice didn't exactly improve it. Sorry about that, I had serious problems with my net connection.
In fact - JemyM, please look away now - I had to use the Swedish button and reboot the machine.
To the powers that be: Feel free to delete.
In fact - JemyM, please look away now - I had to use the Swedish button and reboot the machine.
To the powers that be: Feel free to delete.
Well by not doing the Dark Brotherhood quests, you missed the best THAT game had to offer!!!!
And that's a FACT!
JK But for me anyhow those were the best quests in the game.
And I don't think the actual game "system" should matter. If a game is done well it shouldn't matter whether it's turn based, phased based, real time or 1st Person solo, 1st Person group, Isometric view, etc.
And that's a FACT!
JK
But for me anyhow those were the best quests in the game.And I don't think the actual game "system" should matter. If a game is done well it shouldn't matter whether it's turn based, phased based, real time or 1st Person solo, 1st Person group, Isometric view, etc.
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pibbur
Guest
Ahh. I've just started replaying it (this time with the OOO mod). Maybe I should make my new character a bit more evil (or neutral, neutral). I think I'll do that.
Yes, that may be an option, choosing to ignore aspects connected to the game system. I should have thought of that.
Seems like my chain of arguments was a bit Fragile after all.
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pibbur
Guest
Obviously (if you bothered to read my long rant, can't blame you if you didn't.
) I disagree with you in that.
Konjad
Keeper of the Watch
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Obviously (if you bothered to read my long rant, can't blame you if you didn't.
ok. And I did read your post and it's not that really long.
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To me Oblivion is still one of the best games I've played. Sure the bandits on mega armor on the road was stupid, but that was about my only complaint when I played the game (and I played it twice, one of few games I've ever bothered to do that)
Ok, now you're being silly. When did I say anything remotely resembling this comment?
I said it didn't matter what game system is used for any given game AS LONG AS IT IS GOOD.
I loved Morrowind - 1st person solo, open world, FPS combat. And I loved Wizardry 8 - 1st person group, more traditional turn based combat. I also loved Arcanum - isometric view, group based, really messed up combat system (both real time and turn based).
See? DIfferent systems but all still good games. Just like I still enjoy console RPGs and Strategy RPGs. As long as they're good.
dteowner
Shoegazer
Y'all are making it too complicated. You ask your buddy dte to make a list and then accept it as indisputable fact. Piece of cake.
Seriously though,when you think about it, is there any gaming genre with so many disparate branches as RPG? The only one I can really think of that's even close are sims (flight, life, economic, racing). We've got sandbox, action, and old skool right off the top. Not to mention that our umbrella includes games with fundamental differences in their mechanics (real time vs turn based, solo vs party, build your character from scratch vs develop a character you're given, action vs story, etc). When you look at FPS, you've got different degrees of story, tactics, settings, and such, but ultimately every one of those games share the basic mechanic of running a gauntlet with your weapon. Even if you break RPG down into some component sub-genres where it becomes a little more manageable to determine best-in-class, you're not going to be able to generate a top 10 list without eventually ranking those sub-genres, which is shaky territory.
Seriously though,when you think about it, is there any gaming genre with so many disparate branches as RPG? The only one I can really think of that's even close are sims (flight, life, economic, racing). We've got sandbox, action, and old skool right off the top. Not to mention that our umbrella includes games with fundamental differences in their mechanics (real time vs turn based, solo vs party, build your character from scratch vs develop a character you're given, action vs story, etc). When you look at FPS, you've got different degrees of story, tactics, settings, and such, but ultimately every one of those games share the basic mechanic of running a gauntlet with your weapon. Even if you break RPG down into some component sub-genres where it becomes a little more manageable to determine best-in-class, you're not going to be able to generate a top 10 list without eventually ranking those sub-genres, which is shaky territory.
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pibbur
Guest
Ouch! I meant to say that I could agree with you: focusing on how good the game is, how well it's done, independent of engine specifics (at least that is what I thought you said). Which meant that the things I wrote in my rant wasn't that important and logical after all.
I can see that what I said came out very different from that. Sorry.
Yepp, I can see that.
And @dt: Yes, I did make things unnecessarily complicated.
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Ah! I apologize as well for misinterpretting your comments.
But you didn't make things complicated, everyone has an opinion, right?
The whole point of forums
What's complicated for me is everytime I see a bunch of people defend Oblivion I feel like installing it again... just makes me wonder if I'm missing something or if maybe I was just expecting too much! Hehe.
But you didn't make things complicated, everyone has an opinion, right?
The whole point of forums
What's complicated for me is everytime I see a bunch of people defend Oblivion I feel like installing it again... just makes me wonder if I'm missing something or if maybe I was just expecting too much! Hehe.
Jaz
Play nice.©
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Now wait. I LIKED Oblivion. The Thieves quest was fine (not perfect, but fine). Hieronymus Lex was fine.
I just disliked the fact that you couldn't move light sources, and I ABSOLUTELY hated the fact that you could occupy just the houses you bought.
But hey, let's just say I was spoiled by Morrowind - in Daggerfall, it was pretty much the same as in Olivion, and I still love Daggerfall. If Morrowind hadn't happened, Oblivion might have well become one of my favorite cRPGs ever.
I just disliked the fact that you couldn't move light sources, and I ABSOLUTELY hated the fact that you could occupy just the houses you bought.
But hey, let's just say I was spoiled by Morrowind - in Daggerfall, it was pretty much the same as in Olivion, and I still love Daggerfall. If Morrowind hadn't happened, Oblivion might have well become one of my favorite cRPGs ever.
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I've played almost every crpg ever released and Oblivion would be in my top 10 for sure. The only problem with that is that I'd have about 40 games in my top 10 People who dislike Oblivion generally prefer a story. They need a good storyline to feel involved in the game. That's absolutely unnecessary for me. I started back in the days when the stories were barely sketched out. "I" made the story, which is what I love about Oblivion. In many ways, Oblivion doesn't care that you exist. The world will get along fine without you. I get to make up the story as I play along. In one game I'm a pack-rat alchemist. In the next, I'm a wannabe cartographer who wants to map the whole territory. In a third, I'm a Holy Knight who can't stand the sight of the Oblivion incursion. In a 4th, I only care about robbing graves. Oblivion was endlessly fascinating for me. Morrowind was the same, but with more interesting quest-lines.
See, to me, the Gothics and Torments aren't crpgs. They're bad fantasy books where you walk the character from chapter to chapter. I get no choice in who I am or what I want to accomplish. I have no problems with others who disagree with me. It's what makes the world go round
My top 10 at this particular instant.
1. Legacy of the Ancients C64
2. Phantasie
3. Might and Magic 3
4. Ultima IV
5. Might and Magic 7-probably my favorite of all
6. Neverwinter Nights (for it's construction set, not for the original campaign)
7. Oblivion
8. Amberstar
9. Deus Ex
10. System Shock 2
People who dislike Oblivion generally prefer a story. They need a good storyline to feel involved in the game. That's absolutely unnecessary for me. I started back in the days when the stories were barely sketched out. "I" made the story, which is what I love about Oblivion. In many ways, Oblivion doesn't care that you exist. The world will get along fine without you. I get to make up the story as I play along. In one game I'm a pack-rat alchemist. In the next, I'm a wannabe cartographer who wants to map the whole territory. In a third, I'm a Holy Knight who can't stand the sight of the Oblivion incursion. In a 4th, I only care about robbing graves. Oblivion was endlessly fascinating for me. Morrowind was the same, but with more interesting quest-lines.See, to me, the Gothics and Torments aren't crpgs. They're bad fantasy books where you walk the character from chapter to chapter. I get no choice in who I am or what I want to accomplish. I have no problems with others who disagree with me. It's what makes the world go round
My top 10 at this particular instant.
1. Legacy of the Ancients C64
2. Phantasie
3. Might and Magic 3
4. Ultima IV
5. Might and Magic 7-probably my favorite of all
6. Neverwinter Nights (for it's construction set, not for the original campaign)
7. Oblivion
8. Amberstar
9. Deus Ex
10. System Shock 2
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pibbur
Guest
Ah! I apologize as well for misinterpretting your comments.
But you didn't make things complicated, everyone has an opinion, right?
The whole point of forums
What's complicated for me is everytime I see a bunch of people defend Oblivion I feel like installing it again… just makes me wonder if I'm missing something or if maybe I was just expecting too much! Hehe.
Oblivion is a great game.
Oblivion is a great game.
Oblivion is a great game.
Oblivion is a great game.
Oblivion is a great game.
Oblivion is a great game.
Oblivion is a great game.
Oblivion is a great game.
Oblivion is a great game.
Oblivion is a great game.
Hm. Maybe I should include this in my signature?
Oblivion with lots of mods can actually be an extremely satisfying experience, but out of the box it was probably the biggest disappointment i've ever felt while playing an rpg. Never before or after have i seen so much fail packed in the game mechanics. It was a parody of the genre.
Konjad
Keeper of the Watch
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I agree with you with exception of "extremely satisfying experience" mods. Well, mods can make this game playable and even fun but extremely satisfying experience? Hell, no, extremely satisfying experience gave me only a few games and Oblivion is veeery far from there even with 15 GB of mods.
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