Select a Candidate 2008

Prime Junta said:

And even that can be automated.

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Absolutely - there are traffic-signal cameras here that tag people going through red-lights and automated speeding tracking cameras and so on.

The great thing about those is that they are naturally unbiased ... you don't get an extra fine for being the wrong color or get out of all offenses by being blond

My whole point is that: without political central planning, things would not turn into chaos as your leaders claim. There are more fundamental laws at play. You are right that I don't have the indepth knowledge...but something have to make sense to me. I am talking about the situation here in the US, where collapse of Saving and Loans, Enron, Subprime housing... happen chronically, and they were the brightest, fastest running cars before slamming into a dead end. It never make sense to print money on demand or increase car speed indefinitely. I think it's a time to put a collar to restrait the beast until it become like what you said "responsible".

RP would end the monopoly of the Federal Reserve by legalizing competting currencies back by gold or silver. Let the market/consumers decide.

I will dread the day when a security camera on every 10 yards to ensure ourt security.

mudsling3 said:

My whole point is that: without political central planning, things would not turn into chaos as your leaders claim.

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And you know this because... Ron Paul says so?

Then how come there are no successful anarcho-capitalist/libertarian societies in existence today? There were, you know, but they all lost out to other social models.

There are more fundamental laws at play.

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Are there? If so, what would these laws be, and what evidence can you present for them?

You are right that I don't have the indepth knowledge...

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...so you parrot what your leader -- Ron Paul -- tells you instead.

but something have to make sense to me. I am talking about the situation here in the US, where collapse of Saving and Loans, Enron, Subprime housing... happen chronically, and they were the brightest, fastest running cars before slamming into a dead end.

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Indeed. And there are very good reasons *why* this rash of economic chaos hit just now, and not 10, 20, 30, or 50 years ago. Just like there were good reasons for the economic chaos following the 1929 stock market crash. In fact, many of the reasons are *the same*.

And just like there are good and perfectly understandable reasons for the spectacular American economic success story that started with the New Deal and ended with George W. Bush -- the 1970's hiccup notwithstanding.

And they're nothing like what the libertarians would have you believe.

It never make sense to print money on demand or increase car speed indefinitely. I think it's a time to put a collar to restrait the beast until it become like what you said "responsible".

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Of course not. That's what a rational fiscal policy and traffic regulations are for.

RP would end the monopoly of the Federal Reserve by legalizing competting currencies back by gold or silver. Let the market/consumers decide.

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Which is a completely bone-headed non-solution.

I will dread the day when a security camera on every 10 yards to ensure ourt security.

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That day has already arrived in lots of places. And, of course, it has nothing to do with fiscal policy, the gold standard, or fiat currencies.

actually those red light meters are flawed as well. and when you try to fight it in court you get a robotic response from the 'technician' and you're screwed. it doesn't matter if its right off a freeway onramp where your speed is much higher and the need to have more time to stop is greater. also when the right lane has two car lengths of space less to stop than the 3rd lane on the left i'd call that descrimination to people who drive in the slow lane when they get the same amount of yellow light.

yet i can hardly complain dispite the unfairness if its saved even one life...

Frankly, I don't think it can be *that* unfair. I do drive a fair bit, I know lots of people who drive way more, and I do not know *anyone* who got an automated speeding ticket without actually, y'know, speeding.

(Of course, there are plenty of people who got tickets for what feels like a really insignificant infraction -- 3 km/h in my case, ferchrissake -- but I have little doubt that I *was* in fact speeding, even if I may not have been aware of it at the time. I know I would've been seriously pissed off if I had been ticketed by a cop; the fact that it was a machine sort of made it better: the rules are strict but they're the same for everyone.)

How about it has to do with "big brother" watching, planning, deciding what better for average people. Beside using "whacked-out","bonehead", "concrete tire", I have yet seen any real substance in your argument. The closest example of anacho-capitalist is Switzerland, yep RP mentioned that name as well.

mudsling3 said:

How about it has to do with "big brother" watching, planning, deciding what better for average people. Beside using "whacked-out","bonehead", "concrete tire", I have yet seen any real substance in your argument.

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I wonder, is that because there is no substance there, or that you're so blinded by your faith in Pope Ron Paul I that you're not able to see it?

The closest example of anacho-capitalist is Switzerland, yep RP mentioned that name as well.

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If you actually knew anything about how Switzerland works, you would realize how absolutely laughable that statement is.

For example, the income tax rate caps at 45.5% for a tax revenue of 30% of GDP, the country has the world's most highly subsidized agriculture (for 14 bn SF this year), and it has universal, socially paid health care (and is #2 in health care spending per capita in the world, after the USA). The fact that they take a plebiscite to name every St. Bernhard in the country doesn't make it anarcho-capitalist. Hell, "anarcho-syndicalist" would even describe it better, except that it's probably the least anarchistic place on this green planet.

Oh, and their system works, rather well as political/social systems go. But by American standards, it's stark staring socialism.

Not to derail the Ron Paul discussion, but I saw this yesterday and rather than start a thread for it, thought it might wedge itself in here amidst the political wrangling. It's a little article about a new video game based on the 2008 candidate conflicts called DC Smackdown. It features some novel gameplay:

The game has eight levels — the first six randomly generated from the list of characters and the last two involving combat between former Vice President Al Gore and President George W. Bush.

Bush's special attack is "nuclear" — with his signature pronunciation — while Gore's is global warming. Gore has a "CO2 fart attack," while Bush has a Karl Rove attack. Dressed like the grim reaper, Rove passes through and steals the opponent's soul

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Really, as I've said before, you just can't make this stuff up.

that's so worth five bucks!
thanks magerette.

edit: it was worth the five bucks.

played as jon stewart though i don't understand why buddha is his special weapon/finishing move? made it through to the next to last round and lost to gore (global warming is just to powerful) but apparently you can continue so i won the next time and then finished the last round against bush. i think it was about 8 matches each which is won by winning 2 rounds. each of the players has there own 'home field' which is really hilarious at times. there were a bunch of really good quotes that scrolled at the end of the game. i highly recommend it.

here's an image of guiliani's 'home field'
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o44/mjfossum/giuliani.jpg

I was kinda partial to the "glow in the dark" cats. I saw that on Countdown and thought it was hilarious.

I suppose Hillary's special attack is Bill charming the pants off some intern?

Glad to see you guys enjoyed it. I watched a bit of the demo footage--I can't exactly tell what Hillary was throwing-(-it looked like a cross between a giant roll-on deodorant and a trash can)but Guiliani summoning the foot of the statue of liberty to step on her was cosmic.

Also cool the site has a 'register to vote' link. It can be confusing to find a way to do that sometimes.

actually she hurls a bottle of prescription drugs and says in a male doing a female voice "prescription for destruction" wheras guilinain "tosses a ho"
her 'super move' is an 'intern trample' where a herd of monica lewinskys mows down the opponent followed by bill with his pants down around his ankles chasing them.

Ron Paul would make a disastrous president due to his foreign policy alone. He wants to go back to some sort unilateralism/isolationism that reactionaries think were reality prior to FDR.

That is a recipe for disaster even discounting the fact that much more can be accomplished in the rest of the world with the US on board as a constructive player. As soon as a crisis hits we'll get another case of a president without a clear idea of, or any proper plan for, international policy. A bit like Bush at 9/11, but many times worse since RPs isolationism is a lot more extreme.

Not a recipe for success. As much as I dislike social democrats and like classical liberals the world would be better off with an Obama or even a Kucinich presidency...

mudsling3 said:

How about it has to do with "big brother" watching, planning, deciding what better for average people. Beside using "whacked-out","bonehead", "concrete tire", I have yet seen any real substance in your argument. The closest example of anacho-capitalist is Switzerland, yep RP mentioned that name as well.

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Big Brother tendencies are in deed problematic, but is there no other option than Ron Paul for those who dislike such measures?

PJ, here are a few utube videos in which RP expresses his liking of Switzerland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MB_rmUgH5o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYUvqJ1Od_k

No need to go out of the States to find laissez-fair capitalism, just be one of the small/medium size business...live and die on your own. I just don't see where government got the right to steal money from one group and give it to another.
a simple math in Freemarket vs. subsidy
Freemarket: Price paid by consumer = Actual price
Statist: Price paid by consumer = Actual price - subsidy,
where there is a hidden cost of Tax = subsidy + cost of bureaucracy. It shows that consumers have to shoulder the addition cost of bureaucrazy.

PJ, if you are such believer of cental planning, where do you stop? EU? How about globalism planning?

Zal, are seriously can't disdingrish the difference between Non-intervention and isolation? Classic liberal such as Thomas Jefferson said,"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none", Ron Paul express the same desire in his book A Foreign Policy of Freedom: Peace, Commerce, and Honest Friendship Robert Taft is the name RP mention often. I think you miss the mark. RP just want to bring the guns home and stated that the true isolationists are those who employ military interventionism since Truman or Wilson. Are those classic democrates

I heard no one else mentioning limited constitutional government, states' right. Kucinich is a guy with integrity, but want to set up a cabinet level federal agency for peace? Why do we have to spend tax payers money for this? RP would pull money out of his own pocket to cover the cost that peace medal to Mother Teresa. Why can't Dennis and his wife set up a .ORG?

mudsling3 said:

PJ, here are a few utube videos in which RP expresses his liking of Switzerland.

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Which is rather ironic, considering that other than the bit about the plebiscites, Switzerland is a typical high-tax, high-social-services European welfare state -- just about as far as you can get from the libertarian ideal without going Communist.

Incidentally, it also has the world's highest cost of living.

No need to go out of the States to find laissez-fair capitalism,

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The US doesn't have laissez-faire capitalism. The US hasn't had it in a hundred years or so. Neither has any other developed economy. It proved not to be a viable social/economic model and evolved into what we have now -- politically regulated market economies.

just be one of the small/medium size business...live and die on your own. I just don't see where government got the right to steal money from one group and give it to another.

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The government got the right from us -- the people who elected them. Given a choice between no taxes and no services and some taxes and pretty good services, the vast majority of people picked some taxes and pretty good services.

a simple math in Freemarket vs. subsidy
Freemarket: Price paid by consumer = Actual price
Statist: Price paid by consumer = Actual price - subsidy,
where there is a hidden cost of Tax = subsidy + cost of bureaucracy. It shows that consumers have to shoulder the addition cost of bureaucrazy.

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That's right. Perhaps you should go discuss it with the Swiss? After all, they have the world's most heavily subsidized agriculture -- and the highest cost of living.

The funny thing is, they *like* it that way.

PJ, if you are such believer of cental planning, where do you stop? EU? How about globalism planning?

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@mudsling, I'm not "such a believer of central planning." I'm the strange creature called a "moderate." That means that I believe the best-functioning economies and societies are neither purely laissez-faire nor purely centrally planned; that they're found somewhere in the vast middle ground between the two.

Thing is, I have evidence for this belief. Namely, the incontrovertible fact that all of the world's successful, stable economies, without exception, are such mixes. I can also give theoretical reasons why this is the case, but I happen to believe that observed facts should go first -- not abstract theories of how the facts "should" be.

mudsling3 said:

Zal, are seriously can't disdingrish the difference between Non-intervention and isolation? Classic liberal such as Thomas Jefferson said,"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none", Ron Paul express the same desire in his book A Foreign Policy of Freedom: Peace, Commerce, and Honest Friendship Robert Taft is the name RP mention often. I think you miss the mark. RP just want to bring the guns home and stated that the true isolationists are those who employ military interventionism since Truman or Wilson. Are those classic democrates

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I might read you wrong, but this does sound like nostalgia for pre-WW2 "isolationism".

Obviously non-interventionism and isolationism arent equivalent terms (and on Iraq I definitely think RP talks the talk, but that pointless war is NOT a typical foreign policy issue and would not have happened under any other president), but that's not the issue. The US needs to have the mechanisms in place to act if something happens that threatens it's interests (who I happen to think largely coincide with those of the rest of the western world). And even though the US got huge resources it will get much more than if bringing others on board. Thus I think that "entangling alliances" are necessary, both to better project soft power and prevent shit from happening, and so that one has the framework to work with when the shit hits the fan. And the shit will hit the fan, in some way or another.

But most importantly you need a framework for getting all the everyday stuffs that make us rich (such as international trade) work. The US economy doesnt stop at the borders today.

Unfortunately I dont have Paul's book, and his website is sparse in facts on foreign policy. Could you outline his ideas regarding NATO and NAFTA as a basis for further discussion? I somehow got the idea that Paul wanted to pull out of the latter.

For one reason or another Ron Paul's supporters sometimes do a poor job explaining his views. So it's best to go directly to the source. He's probably going to get my vote.

This column isn't on Stossel's Web page yet but will surely make it there eventually. This local link probably won't work after a few days.

Zal, check out this critic on Nafta by none other than Hillary on Utube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRvJ-o30Sk8

RP want to get out of WTO, IMF, Nafta, Cafta, which he consider as managed trade control by special corporate interest.

Like squeek said, the finger that points to the Moon can't be mistaken for the Moon itself You can watch that entire interview here, it's unfortunate that it won't be shown on ABC 20/20
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=3970818&page=1

And this Sunday RP will be on Meet the Press with Tim Russet
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3898804/

How did you get the idea that I care much for Hillary? I'm a European liberal (eg pro civil liberties and against economic regulation, making RP a somewhat interesting fellow to follow).

Youtube clips wont do much for me given that I dont have sound on this PC Is Hillary using a traditional leftist/protectionist criticism of free trade a la "they are taking our jobs", "social dumping", etc? If so then then that is another reason to be sceptical of her, albeit an unsurprising one. "Unionists" and big government conservatives both tend to fall into that trap.

mudsling3 said:

RP want to get out of WTO, IMF, Nafta, Cafta, which he consider as managed trade control by special corporate interest.

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This is my issue with RP. I sympathise with his goals, but my interpretation of bodies such as these is completely different in that I see them as a tool to create a transparent, large, and even playing field for both companies and individuals, albeit imperfect ones. Without an international agreement upon the rules countries would be free to arbitrarily raise barriers to trade. In practice that leads to a situation where the big, "special corporate interests", have a much bigger leverage due to their resources, which would be detrimental to both individuals, small businesses, and the dynamism of the economy as a whole.

I'm off to xmas holidays in the deep forests now, any further comments will have to wait for two weeks