Why Do Our RPGs Still Need Numbers? @ Kotaku

Except here in Germany. ;)

Of which I'm very, very glad … ;)

More seriously, shouldn't it be rather, then :

"Are RPGs turning into Adventure games ?"

I always considered RPGs to be Adventure games (with numbers).
 
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Maybe it's my inner control freak coming out of the closet to a rendition of Diana Ross, but I'd feel lost without numbers to give me an exact reading on in-game stats and combat.
 
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I agree with the idea that RPGs don't *need* numbers. Should many RPGs put their numbers up front for gamers to play with? Yes! I hope we always have RPGs with numbers. I do enjoy that meta game. But why not have something representing the other side? And why does it have to be considered dumbing down if we try? Think about this:

DM: You'd been trudging through the depths of the dungeon for days, but then you breached the grounds of the subterranean temple which was your target. After an epic fight with losses on both sides, you navigated the puzzles and locks leading into the inner sanctum. There, glowing with mysterious light, is a mace. It pulses with energy and you hear voices tickling the edges of your subconscious.
Player: OK, I grab the mace and whip it around a few times.
DM: You feel bolder, and more confident, as you take hold of the ancient weapon. As you swing the mace effortlessly, you marvel at its perfect balance. The +3 mace —
Player: Plus 3?! What? That's (1d8)+3? Nevermind. Put it back.
DM: But wait! It also — uh, it does plus 1d6 versus undead!
Player: My current weapon is 2d6+1, does plus 1d4 vs evil, and has a faster attack speed.

etc.

You might argue and say that the easy solution is to make a mace that's undeniably more powerful than the weapon already in use. But what's wrong with a little mystery? This weapon could be more or less the same as any other weapon in the game, but if it feels special to the player, and occasionally is special (in ways that pure, up front knowledge can't as easily manage), then I call that a win for all.
 
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Ive played paper&pen rpgs that had very few numbers. However those games worked only because we had a very creative gamemaster. Computer games dont have gamemasters and plot arching is very limited in them, so I dont see how it could work in a crpg.
 
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I agree with the idea that RPGs don't *need* numbers. Should many RPGs put their numbers up front for gamers to play with? Yes! I hope we always have RPGs with numbers. I do enjoy that meta game. But why not have something representing the other side? And why does it have to be considered dumbing down if we try? Think about this:

DM: You'd been trudging through the depths of the dungeon for days, but then you breached the grounds of the subterranean temple which was your target. After an epic fight with losses on both sides, you navigated the puzzles and locks leading into the inner sanctum. There, glowing with mysterious light, is a mace. It pulses with energy and you hear voices tickling the edges of your subconscious.
Player: OK, I grab the mace and whip it around a few times.
DM: You feel bolder, and more confident, as you take hold of the ancient weapon. As you swing the mace effortlessly, you marvel at its perfect balance. The +3 mace —
Player: Plus 3?! What? That's (1d8)+3? Nevermind. Put it back.
DM: But wait! It also — uh, it does plus 1d6 versus undead!
Player: My current weapon is 2d6+1, does plus 1d4 vs evil, and has a faster attack speed.

etc.

You might argue and say that the easy solution is to make a mace that's undeniably more powerful than the weapon already in use. But what's wrong with a little mystery? This weapon could be more or less the same as any other weapon in the game, but if it feels special to the player, and occasionally is special (in ways that pure, up front knowledge can't as easily manage), then I call that a win for all.

the dnd strawman you made up, did not make any sense

get out of here newfag
 
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QUOTE SAGO
Please ban me so we dont windup with two codexes
———————————————————————————————————————————
Shouldnt you be guarding a bridge or something?

On topic:
The reason for adding numbers i allways thought was fairly obvious: they tell you exactly what is going on.
Sure one can argue just howmuch information one needs wich id say depends on the difficulty of the game. Something like Bg2 would be prettymuch unplayable
without detailed knowledge of saves, damage ranges, defences etc where as your average hack&slash wich seems to be the preferred "rpg" model really does not require any indepth knowledge beyond hp/mana bars.
Apparently the latest generation of gamers have deteriorated to the point where the mere presence of numbers is intimidating so the obvious solution would be to simply make them optional.
I found Da 2 to be incredibly annoying with their vague spell/item descriptions forcing me to choose spells and item sets at random as i had no detailed information telling me what they did. Even tho i had no problems playing trough the game on nightmare a simple item description toggle would have made it much more enjoyable.
 
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QUOTE SAGO
Please ban me so we dont windup with two codexes
———————————————————————————————————————————
Shouldnt you be guarding a bridge or something?

On topic:
The reason for adding numbers i allways thought was fairly obvious: they tell you exactly what is going on.
Sure one can argue just howmuch information one needs wich id say depends on the difficulty of the game. Something like Bg2 would be prettymuch unplayable
without detailed knowledge of saves, damage ranges, defences etc where as your average hack&slash wich seems to be the preferred "rpg" model really does not require any indepth knowledge beyond hp/mana bars.
Apparently the latest generation of gamers have deteriorated to the point where the mere presence of numbers is intimidating so the obvious solution would be to simply make them optional.
I found Da 2 to be incredibly annoying with their vague spell/item descriptions forcing me to choose spells and item sets at random as i had no detailed information telling me what they did. Even tho i had no problems playing trough the game on nightmare a simple item description toggle would have made it much more enjoyable.

But interestingly the best action or hack-and-slash RPGs use a lot of numbers. Just look at Diablo 2 (IMO the best Action-RPG to date) or at hugely successful MMOs like World of Warcraft. They have more numbers than your average DnD game. And it's not only the numbers themself it is also how the influence each other and your playing style. I for one think that I need to pay far more attention to numbers in Diablo 2 than in Baldurs Gate or The Witcher.
 
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the dnd strawman you made up, did not make any sense get out of here newfag

Hahaha. I realize you're probably trolling, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and "dumb it down" for you.

Luke Plunkett (the writer) claims that numbers in RPGs are well and good, and those types of RPGs should continue to be made, but it'd be nice if other people made other games that didn't push the numbers so heavily.

I agree.

In the Lord of the Rings, Bilbo had his elven sword Sting which he used to fight off spiders. When Frodo had it, the blade glowed blue when orcs were near. No mentions of numbers. Just cool lore and backstory, and neat stuff happening in the adventures.

If we're playing a game like D&D and you give me the numbers, I'll play the meta game and wield the best weapons for my character build to maximize his damage -- and that'll be fun. Take the numbers away, and I'll go for the interesting lore and cool in-battle effects. That'll also be fun.
 
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Luke Plunkett (the writer) claims that numbers in RPGs are well and good, and those types of RPGs should continue to be made, but it'd be nice if other people made other games that didn't push the numbers so heavily.
He just doesn't like RPGs, what he is after is adventure games. The idea to hide all the numbers from the players sounds good on paper but is more frustrating than anything else in practice. Combat will be incredibly infuriating when you have no idea what's going on, and players will want to wield the best weapon and armor even if they can't see their stats.
 
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The whole premise of the Kotaku article quickly breaks down when you question the assumption "why, uh are we still using numbers now in 2011?" as if somehow, numbers have some kind of use-by date and oh ho ho it's so backwards to be using them in a modern game. This is just ridiculously biased short sightedness. There shouldn't be an either/or dynamic at play here.

The article has essentially gobbled hook line and sinker, the modern BioWare and Bethesda oriented visions of cRPG's as dress-up/social interaction based role-playing, and is erroneously pushing it as the only way forward.

Thankfully the article does accept the reasons for players' finding the joy and transparency in numbers, which is its saving grace.
 
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The whole premise of the Kotaku article quickly breaks down when you question the assumption "why, uh are we still using numbers now in 2011?" as if somehow, numbers have some kind of use-by date and oh ho ho it's so backwards to be using them in a modern game. This is just ridiculously biased short sightedness. There shouldn't be an either/or dynamic at play here.

The article has essentially gobbled hook line and sinker, the modern BioWare and Bethesda oriented visions of cRPG's as dress-up/social interaction based role-playing, and is erroneously pushing it as the only way forward.

Thankfully the article does accept the reasons for players' finding the joy and transparency in numbers, which is its saving grace.

Just a remark: Bethesda games have numbers, lots of them actually. What they don't have is a story.
 
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He just doesn't like RPGs, what he is after is adventure games. The idea to hide all the numbers from the players sounds good on paper but is more frustrating than anything else in practice. Combat will be incredibly infuriating when you have no idea what's going on, and players will want to wield the best weapon and armor even if they can't see their stats.

I am willing to agree, to an extent, about the frustration. And as far as Plunkett goes, you may be right. I have not paid attention to his other posts.

But if you go into the game with the mindset that you can't know everything, and focus on wording and clues, then it can be as enjoyable — and a nice change of pace. Gamers balk at first, sure, but you have to give them time to really decide if they actually like/hate it, or only like/hate it because it's different. Some of the best campaigns I've run in d20 (according to the players) used all the numbers but kept them behind the screen.

Sometimes it takes trial-and-effort to learn instead of the DM spoon-feeding it to the player. "Is this dagger better or is this sword better" "Well," says the DM, "maybe you should try them each and see for yourself." Sometimes a property that stands out via randomness is enough to make one seem special. What if the player suffers a broken sword within four or five fights, but has a dagger that that hasn't broken in months? If the DM says, "No, it's a normal dagger, 1d4" then the player loses all that sense of mystery. If the DM abstains, then the player thinks, "Maybe I have a magic dagger, a dagger crafted by ancient dwarves and built to last for all eternity."

Remember, once upon a time, for example, Ultima (we'll say #5, since that was my favorite) didn't use numbers in combat. Yes, you had numbers representing your health — but combat used descriptive terms. That isn't the high-water mark, but it shows it can be done. Couple that idea with today's graphics — because in a game like NWN you could not depict how wounder the player was, but you could do it easily in a game today — and I think it'd be a nice sub-genre to the RPG.

The whole premise of the Kotaku article quickly breaks down when you question the assumption "why, uh are we still using numbers now in 2011?" as if somehow, numbers have some kind of use-by date and oh ho ho it's so backwards to be using them in a modern game. This is just ridiculously biased short sightedness. There shouldn't be an either/or dynamic at play here.

No, I agree it should not be either/or. It does sound divisive. But poorly presenting or phrasing the argument should in no way invalidate the idea itself. It is a good idea. It may be something that some RPGers enjoy. It may be something that pulls new RPGers into the mix. It definitely should have a space all its own.
 
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Hahaha. I realize you're probably trolling, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and "dumb it down" for you.

Luke Plunkett (the writer) claims that numbers in RPGs are well and good, and those types of RPGs should continue to be made, but it'd be nice if other people made other games that didn't push the numbers so heavily.

I agree.

In the Lord of the Rings, Bilbo had his elven sword Sting which he used to fight off spiders. When Frodo had it, the blade glowed blue when orcs were near. No mentions of numbers. Just cool lore and backstory, and neat stuff happening in the adventures.

If we're playing a game like D&D and you give me the numbers, I'll play the meta game and wield the best weapons for my character build to maximize his damage — and that'll be fun. Take the numbers away, and I'll go for the interesting lore and cool in-battle effects. That'll also be fun.

no, no it wont because youll still be wielding the best weapon for max damage unless you genuinely think a flint dagger has an advantage over an atom bomb.

and i said nothing about dumbing down, faggot (corwin, pls, i was calling him a bundle of sticks, not the derogotry phrase for homos)

stop saying i said things when i didnt, it makes me very sad and angry :(
 
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It's easy to differentiate a flint dagger from an atom bomb -- and other similar extremes; I'll give you that bit of insight. But take away the numbers and system, and how do you tell if a mace is better than a morning star is better than an axe is better than a halberd, etc.? You go out and use them. And if you don't know all the variables, then performance in the field is going to determine your beliefs.

I know this isn't for everyone. Don't worry, if I decide to start up a numberless RPG campaign, I won't put you in the awkward position of declining my invitation. But there is a market out there for people who would enjoy a true, hard-core (maybe even turn-based) RPG experience without a heavy reliance on numbers meta-gaming.

PS I know you didn't say anything about dumbing down. That was something I was doing for your benefit. Sheesh, I have to explain everything to you. *wink!*
 
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It's easy to differentiate a flint dagger from an atom bomb — and other similar extremes; I'll give you that bit of insight. But take away the numbers and system, and how do you tell if a mace is better than a morning star is better than an axe is better than a halberd, etc.? You go out and use them. And if you don't know all the variables, then performance in the field is going to determine your beliefs.

I know this isn't for everyone. Don't worry, if I decide to start up a numberless RPG campaign, I won't put you in the awkward position of declining my invitation. But there is a market out there for people who would enjoy a true, hard-core (maybe even turn-based) RPG experience without a heavy reliance on numbers meta-gaming.

PS I know you didn't say anything about dumbing down. That was something I was doing for your benefit. Sheesh, I have to explain everything to you. *wink!*


man im sperging so hard right now, sperging more than a codexer about someone liking oblivion, getting so obsessed with your semen cleaned teeth (nothing wraung with homos, corwin) in that pic of yours. im raging so hard at when you thought putting words into mah mouth was for my ''benefit''. even alrik fassbauer would be amazed at the sperging im feeling rite now. i know im getting trolled but i just cannot help it :(

btw, how are you going to create a numberless video game when computers are just a load of numbers? you gunna try and create a virtual reality like in the matrix cuz' that is the only way to get a numberless rpg

srsly you are such a mad gay
 
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That goes beyond RPGs.

It is based on the type of combats that request simulation.

Skill based combat usually does fine with explicit numbers and can do with succint depiction of damage, resistance and all.

Non skill based combat requires numbers to give references and a referential.

Street fighter like games, beat'em ups, FPSs etc work well without explicit numbers as the difference is decided by the player's skill.

Non skilled combat like casting a dice or auto attack demands numbers to track the progression of combat.

The OP relates to ME2 and ME2 combat style is one based on skill: depending on the player's skill, the target is hit or is not hit. The target can be hit on various locations for different effects: legs to impair displacement, head shot for mass damage etc... Differences in weaponry can be text expressed: more or less damage on head shot, more or less accurate etc

For fantasy medieval settings, skill based combat is hard to implement. Bow/crossbow is near gunfights but the slow rate and the prevalence of HtH combat makes it more difficult. Few games rely on a skill based spell casting system like Arx fatalis's glyph based system. HtH combat, sword and shield, the core of fantasy medieval combat is very hard to implement with skills in mind.
Hit/miss because of player's skill, different locations to be hit... Not easy.

Not really RPG genre that requires numbers but the type of combat you want to simulate.
 
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