RPGWatch Feature - Morrowind Revisited

It all depends on what youre looking for in an RPG. Some people are all about love interests, the laughs, and tears, some are more about your role in the big picture and the "big picture" itself.

The star of Morrowind is not some cast of NPCs that you drag around, the star of Morrowind is the world and culture as a whole. It's a single-player non-party RPG, and as such, youre not spoon-fed a cast of wacky characters to form virtual relationships with. No, Morrowind takes a little more effort on your part then just having it all served up to you by an NPC you cant avoid. Reading books such as Ancestors and the Dunmer, you come to realize what those little graphical elements and references in the game really mean, and the world begins to open up. Everyone's read Brothers of Darkness when youve been persued by the Dark Bortherhood, but have you read The House of Troubles and learned about the dark spirits that all those Daedric Shrines are dedicated to?

Chimer are mentioned in that last text, what are they? Theyre the ancient Dunmer, before the Daedra Azura's curse turned their skin dark, and eyes red. Her curse was brought down on the elves for the supposed murder of the Indoril Lord Neravar by the Tribunal of Almalexia/Vivec/Sotha Sil. You are the reincarnation of this being in the game.

It's possible for you to just run around looting shrines, killing everything in sight, grabbing the next quest item, and delivering it to the right person. Get the tools, sever the heart, kill the main bad guy and youre done. Youre not seeing the forest thru the trees however, when it comes to the real role-playing experience in the world of Morrowind.

Damn it Sammy, I just spent an hour lost in Elder Scrolls Wiki because of you.

Well put Sammy.

JDR13 said:

Damn it Sammy, I just spent an hour lost in Elder Scrolls Wiki because of you.

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No kidding, one thing leads to another and before long i feel like trying to get Daggerfall going again just so I can start from the very start!

wait that's Arena. I dont know if I can go back that far tho ='.'=

I know what you mean, I would love to take a crack at Daggerfall someday, especially if that guy actually finishes his DaggerXL project.

Forget about Arena though, I tried playing that about 5-6 years ago, and it was way too dated for me.

I have waited for two years for that guy to finish his DarkXL project.

xSamhainx said:

It's a single-player non-party RPG, and as such, youre not spoon-fed a cast of wacky characters to form virtual relationships with. No, Morrowind takes a little more effort on your part then just having it all served up to you by an NPC you cant avoid.

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Which is exactly why I feel that Morrowind is empty and why I feel so alone.

It's an individuals opinions that makes them feel alive in my book. When you engage in a social universe you are indeed spoonfed people you cannot avoid, with opinions different than your own, of which you must navigate in order to get along.

Clean out the "wacky people", remove the "in-your-face" interractions, allow you the opportunity to avoid every awkward unwanted encounter, and all you have left is desolated wasteland, artificial papercut backdrops without meaning, without purpose, without soul.

It's not my task to give purpose to the artists creation or try to find meaning where none is intended, to fill holes that was created out of ignorance rather than out of purpose. That is what apologetics do.

xSamhainx said:

Reading books such as

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Or drop the game, go down to the local library and explore the mysteries of the intellectual history of the western Civilization, that I promise is both deeper and more thoughtworthy. Just do not get too lost, in this universe there are people who actually cares for you and your opinions.

JemyM said:

Or drop the game, go down to the local library and explore the mysteries of the intellectual history of the western Civilization, that I promise is both deeper and more thoughtworthy. Just do not get too lost, in this universe there are people who actually cares for you and your opinions.

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That is true of all gaming. We do it anyway, don't we?

My post came out as unneccessary bitter, harsh and exaggerated and I apologize for it. Can't edit it on my mobile. Take it with a grain of salt.

GhanBuriGhan said:

That is true of all gaming. We do it anyway, don't we?

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I guess we all play because we get something out of it. What we gain is different from people to people. I try more and more to not judge people for enjoying what I do not.

I personally like social interactions, deep and complex characters and moral challenges. Of course Morrowind offered me very little of that so it wasn't my kind of game. I love the party in games like Dragon Age. Yes, you are stuck with your party, just like you are stuck within small boxed in maps in Deus Ex. The box is a platform for the challenges that are a part of the game, in the case of games like DA:O they are social challenges, in Deus Ex it's about getting from A to B. You just can't skip the box.

The above post tried to be apologetic to Morrowind by deevaluing precisely the content I enjoy the most (party). My reaction became a counterdevaluation.

JemyM said:

The above post tried to be apologetic to Morrowind by deevaluing precisely the content I enjoy the most (party). My reaction became a counterdevaluation.

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I don't see his post as being "apologetic" at all. I think that's just your interpretation of it due to the fact that he enjoyed the game and you didn't.

Must a person be labeled apologetic every time they talk about the reasons why they like something? I think not.

JDR13 said:

I don't see his post as being "apologetic" at all. I think that's just your interpretation of it due to the fact that he enjoyed the game and you didn't.
Must a person be labeled apologetic every time they talk about the reasons why they like something? I think not.

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I use the term "apologetic" to describe the will to add meaning that isn't neccessary there, evident or by design. Especially when the most intutive analysis would make the conclusion that something is bad, broken, stupid or unintended. If I say I like boars in vanilla Gothic 3 because they were challenging I would be apologetic. They are hard due to broken AI, not by design. I still like them, but I wouldn't use it as a defense for unexcuseable broken code.

I personally put value on presentation. I do not think lack of presentation can be excused. Text is the cheapest form of presentation. Presentation includes introduction to the player, information about whats going on and feedback to their actions. The way Morrowind is described above remind me of a museum. A non-interactive display with a sign next to it you can read for more info. If I prefer non-interactivity I could go for a book.

JemyM said:

I use the term "apologetic" to describe the will to add meaning that isn't neccessary there, evident or by design. If I say I like boars in vanilla Gothic 3 because they were challenging I would be apologetic. They are hard due to broken AI, not by design. I still like them, but I wouldn't use it as a defense for unexcuseable broken code.

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What a black and white world you live in

You don't have to actually be apologetic if you like something that others don't like. Not even if it's universally despised.

The concept of being apologetic comes into play, if you WILLFULLY ignore or excuse significant flaws - because you WANT to enjoy something.

That may or may not be the case with fans of Morrowind - but only someone truly arrogant would claim it to be the case, with certainty.

That said, I do agree that you have to use your imagination quite a bit to enjoy Morrowind, from where I'm sitting. Nothing wrong with that - but since I'm not really what you'd call big on imagination, I definitely prefer a game to show and tell - rather than have me pretend or "do the work" for the game.

That's also why I'm not a big reader.

Morrowind is clearly a game that appeals to the sort of person who can immerse himself into written lore, and relatively static environments.

JemyM, I guess, for some people, MW falls into a certain bracket of interactive and non-interactive content that feels comfortable.
The if-I-want-non-interactive-I-can-read-books argument doesn't really make sense to me in the context. Its not like MW is only books, they are merely an important device to transport backstory in game. Its the combined effect of the interactive and this non-interactive content that makes the game special to me, not the books by themselves.
I am a scientist by nature, I like to explore and probe my virtual worlds, and like it when they hold up to scrutiny - its part of what makes them "real" to me. Both dialog and in-game text and a coherent and cross-referential design of the world itself contribute to that effect. MW did it well through books, lore topics in dialog and a relatively coherent world design. There is soul in that as well, if you are susceptible to it. MW was poor in the mechanics and actual flavor of dialog and NPC interaction, that could add even more for that purpose as well, no doubt. Gothic or Bioware games, e.g. are pretty good at the latter, but don't allow you to scrutinize history, backstory, religion through books much or at all.

Maybe a book can serve as illustration as well. The story of Frodo is nice, and having him come alive through dialog and exposition is an important element to draw you into the story. But the WORLD comes alive because you can sense the enormous body of legend, stories, language and mythology that Tolkien had made up long before he set down to write this particular story. The former is necessary to allow me to read and enjoy the story, the latter is necessary to make it great, at least for me.

GhanBuriGhan said:

The if-I-want-non-interactive-I-can-read-books argument doesn't really make sense to me in the context.

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There *are* "interactive books" out there, by the way.

GhanBuriGhan said:

But the WORLD comes alive because you can sense the enormous body of legend, stories, language and mythology that Tolkien had made up long before he set down to write this particular story. The former is necessary to allow me to read and enjoy the story, the latter is necessary to make it great, at least for me.

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Well said, this is how I see it myself, too.

Maybe a book can serve as illustration as well. The story of Frodo is nice, and having him come alive through dialog and exposition is an important element to draw you into the story. But the WORLD comes alive because you can sense the enormous body of legend, stories, language and mythology that Tolkien had made up long before he set down to write this particular story. The former is necessary to allow me to read and enjoy the story, the latter is necessary to make it great, at least for me.

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Yeah, that's true enough.

But we must remember that we're talking games vs. books here.

I think games can draw from all kinds of sources, and books/movies are great for several things.

In my opinion, though, games are only great games when they truly utilise the strengths of that specific medium.

That's why I don't care too much for modern Bioware games, and that's also why I don't care too much for Morrowind. I think Bioware games are movies, and I think of Morrowind very much as an interactive book - with horrible game mechanics.

Gothic, on the other hand, is a strong game - because it uses the "gaming-specific" stuff brilliantly. It simulates a world with a lot of interaction, and it succeeds in making the world feel alive - and the story is presented through the "moving" world itself - as well as spoken dialogue. As someone mentioned - Morrowind is almost like a beautiful painting - and as such, it feels pretty dead to me.

All that is subjective, of course - but I really don't see Morrowind as a particularly good example of utilising the strengths of the medium.

However, with that said, it was awesome in its initial presentation. I was VERY impressed for the first couple of hours, playing it. Definitely the best looking game of its time. Unfortunately, it didn't live up to that impression at all.

Truth is that all modes released aiming at making MW more alive changed the world so much that it didn't felt like MW any longer .
Adding travellers/text was okay but extra monsters outside the lore was bliah.

MW's combat is as crap as in Gothic but spell making can be very creative , also the exploration rewards both in gear and in knowledge kept you going .

Tragos said:

Truth is that all modes released aiming at making MW more alive changed the world so much that it didn't felt like MW any longer. Adding travellers/text was okay but extra monsters outside the lore was bliah.

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No, that is not truth. You just have to be selective if you want to have your modded Morrowind lore friendly and in a good shape.
For example, if your basic enlivening combo is Morrowind Comes Alive + Giants, then yes, verisimilitude goes out of the window and your game will become likely broken in other departments as well.
If you go with Starfire´s NPC Additions + Creatures X though, the game remains intact, just enhanced.
The only truth here is, there´s a shitload of mods for the game.

Tragos said:

MW's combat is as crap as in Gothic

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A solid material for another multi-page thread .

DArtagnan said:

The concept of being apologetic comes into play, if you WILLFULLY ignore or excuse significant flaws - because you WANT to enjoy something.

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Like the Gothic 3 boars?

JemyM said:

Like the Gothic 3 boars?

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I haven't met anyone saying they liked them, yet