Witcher Sex and maturity in The Witcher

A lot of comments have been made recently about certain aspects of The Witcher, in particular one concern came up that they’d just added boobies and resultantly call it a ‘mature’ RPG. Having played the game now for a while it’s clear this couldn’t be further from the truth so I’m starting this up so we can share real information and discuss these aspects of the game, in a ‘mature’ way

My game is the uncensored UK retail version. It’s rated 18, but it’s clear that actually it only got this high a rating on a technicality - for the most part the actual content of the game is IMHO far more applicable to a 15 rating. What am I saying? Basically that this game isn’t explicit.

Many films (Basic Instinct for example) contain far more explicit material - I don’t believe it is this which earns The Witcher it’s ‘mature RPG’ tag at all, rather something else.

Much has been made of certain scenes in the game, so let me describe them - certain dialogue options lead to certain NPCs consenting to bed Geralt. I use that terminology because that’s the most accurate way of describing it - to give one example there is an in-game cut-scene showing the characters heading to a bed, then the camera moves to show only the bottom of the bed - we see a sword dropping to the floor and there is the suggestion of disrobing, but we don’t see the top of the bed or characters therein. Then it fades to black and a movie plays - the movie consists of a blurred and red-toned background showing Geralt embracing a generic woman and falling into bed with her. This can only be briefly seen however, as in the centre of the picture an art card zooms in to take up a lot of the screen. Geralt and the woman in the background are naked, but any delicate anatomies are completely covered by hair/arms/the card.

The cards themselves are 2d, hand painted and completely static. They depict solely a female figure. Some of these cards contain nudity, but overall they are a throw back to famed fantasy airbrush artworks.

That’s it - the whole process lasts seconds and is not at all gratuitous or titillating. Certainly it seems in no way an attempt to make the game ‘mature’.

Instead, what seems mature about The Witcher to me is more the world setting. Other fantasy games typically offer a very candy-sweet version of relationships, sometimes at complete odds to the medieval based setting. I was actually surprised the first time I chose what in other games would be a very innocent/romantic comment, yet in The Witcher the NPC reacted as if the comment were rather more sexually suggestive than romantic. Think about it a little though and it begins to make sense. This is not a well-mannered, modern, exclusive setting. This is a very medieval setting. I’m not a historian, but my guess would be that in a harsher world, where people lived from plate to mouth and without dominating civilising influences such as the church, promiscuity could well be the norm. You could argue it’s becoming so in today’s world as well. Add in the fact that Witchers are by their nature very isolated from society, are infertile and immune to disease as well, and suddenly the actions of Geralt and reactions to him become much easier to understand.

So really, it’s not the content or delivery of that content which makes The Witcher a mature RPG, it’s the world setting. In particular, The Witcher is the first mainstream game I’ve seen which has really tackled a very likely world-view towards relationships between strangers. In doing so it leaves no room for the innocence of most other RPGs. Thus it is, and by making demands on the player that they also accept this lack of innocence, a mature RPG.

-kalniel

I agree with all of that, with the minor note that the inclusion of the playing cards essentially makes it a mini-game, which will see some people relentlessly pursuing every possible option in the game, which does seem a little silly to me.

The inclusion of a mini game that lets you collect cards after sleeping with women has turned me off this game completely. I can't think of anything more immature then that in all honesty.

Sorcha I think you should give this game a chance. Its a rare thing to see such a well crafted rpg game with an orginal design these days.

Sorcha Ravenlock said:

The inclusion of a mini game that lets you collect cards after sleeping with women has turned me off this game completely. I can't think of anything more immature then that in all honesty.

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I would tend to agree; it would be nice if adult oriented adventures could avoid teenage male fantasies. Still, as far as I understand it, the mini-games are optional, so I'll just avoid it, like I avoided the sex in VTMB and the Gothic series.

What I don't understand is why anyone would really get excited about seeing some fantasy art cards and a suggestion their character had sex. Surely there are other, better ways of enjoying yourself than that? Wasn't that what the Internet was invented for?

chaedwards said:

What I don't understand is why anyone would really get excited about seeing some fantasy art cards and a suggestion their character had sex. Surely there are other, better ways of enjoying yourself than that? Wasn't that what the Internet was invented for?

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Not that I want to turn this into a discussion of pr0n in games, but I've seen the above mentioned argument often enough, although mostly in a very rude and patronizing way, to warrant a response of some kind:

What *I* don't understand is why anyone would feel the need to decide for others what they should or should not get exited about. Please don't take offense to this cheadwards, since this is not a directed at you.

There are people catching insects, sticking a needle through them and displaying them in glass cases. There are people counting trains, planes, automobiles, birds, you name it and just for the "fun" of counting them. Why is this any different?

If you look at a game like the recently released Conan for the 360 and PS3, it features plenty of semi nude maidens in distress. Do their presence have an impact on the gameplay? No, but they have a rather large impact on the "style" of the Hyborian world since the original Robert E. Howard novels contained plenty of scantily clad damsels and without them it wouldn't be Howard's Conan. Perhaps the same is true for the Witcher comic?

I'm not advocating the removal of such scenes from games, although I am pleased that they're optional. I just don't understand why people claim that it makes something more gritty and realistic - it doesn't, it makes it more like stereotypical male wish fulfilment fantasy, one step removed from chainmail bikins.

I can see the semi-naked maidens fit into Conan - as you say, the experience is true to the books - but the hype for the Witcher suggested that it was a mature experience, filled with contemporary themes and difficult choices in a realistic world. For me, that sense of grittiness and realism is eroded by a mini-game that encourages sleeping with as many women as possible and getting to look at vaguely naughty playing cards as a result.

@chaedwards -- that describes my initial reaction pretty much exactly. "Choices with deferred consequences, uh-huh, moral ambiguity, great, racism, terrorism, corruption, great, complex writing, awesome, mini-game with naughty postcards... uh, what?"

Strangely, though, I find that my expectations have shifted a bit since then. For one thing, it appears that there's a certain amount of humor involved.

I just got the game, though, and am quite curious to see how well this is actually done. So, for science, I'm off to bang Triss (virtually, naturally). I'll be sure to let everyone know how it went.

chaedwards said:

I just don't understand why people claim that it makes something more gritty and realistic - it doesn't, it makes it more like stereotypical male wish fulfilment fantasy, one step removed from chainmail bikins.

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And I don't understand why everybody always talk about "sex-cards". It apears now it was quite clever marketing decision . It isn't the main thing in the game, it's optional. Why don't people react to other part of Kalniel post:
Instead, what seems mature about The Witcher to me is more the world setting. Other fantasy games typically offer a very candy-sweet version of relationships, sometimes at complete odds to the medieval based setting. (...) So really, it’s not the content or delivery of that content which makes The Witcher a mature RPG, it’s the world setting. In particular, The Witcher is the first mainstream game I’ve seen which has really tackled a very likely world-view towards relationships between strangers. In doing so it leaves no room for the innocence of most other RPGs. Thus it is, and by making demands on the player that they also accept this lack of innocence, a mature RPG.

Personally, I thought at first if I have such rare oppurtinity to have full control over a guy, I'll make him faithful to Yennefer (in books he wasn't, she either ) - but I decided to give Geralt more freedom, but not with Triss - but dryad surely, I like the design of her card .

The whole sexthing and the postcards and what not is really nothing to be concerned about. The brothel on the docks in Gothic 2 is as "mature" as this sexual content.

However, the game is definetly mature in terms of other content - rapes, murders, children losing their parents, becoming slaves and so on and so forth. The story is quite grim, as are some of the sidequests you come across.

Having now gotten a quite a bit deeper into the game, my perception of this bit has evolved too.

Yes, there is a pretty unashamed set of tail-chasing quests in the game.
Yes, some of the cards could have been executed with, um, better taste. IMO of course.

However, all in all, I still find it rather nicely done. Some of the sexual encounters feel pretty sordid, while others are genuinely moving (and no, I don't mean only moving *that*). If your version of Geralt wants to frequent prostitutes, he can do that; if he likes a girl and wants to romance her, he can do that too. What happened for me is that the option to do the latter totally turned me off to the former.

I guess the bottom line is that in Geralt's world women actually *want* to sleep with a famous, athletic, heroic swordsman type, if he's considerate and polite and brings them flowers. (Also sterile and immune to disease.)

What a bunch of weirdos.

Sterile and immune to disease? Damn, this is a world without contraception; (I assume) it's just about a moral duty to go and service the women of the land in that case!

(can't wait for this one to arrive in my mailbox)

The world is rather intriguing, actually; I'd very much like to read the books. There certainly hasn't been any mentions of contraception but there have been mentions of unwanted pregnancies.

On the other hand, people casually talk about mutagens and genetic modification, normal causes of death include gang warfare, terrorism, and vampires, and alchemy and medicine are related, systematic, empirical sciences with their universities, practitioners, conferences, and what have you. In other words, if an alchemist can prepare a potion that'll massively accelerate your healing rate, give you night vision, or put you into a blurry, roaring slow-time (not to mention simple stuff like instant hangover cures), I'd be rather surprised if they couldn't prepare a morning-after potion, or a contraceptive one for that matter. Of course, such potions would be way too costly to be used on a casual basis...

IOW, it's pretty clear that the technological and social evolution of the place was very different to ours, even allowing for the high-magic setting with monsters stalking the streets at night. The nice thing is that (other than some anachronistic turns of phrase) it doesn't seem random or accidental -- there's clearly an underlying structure and rationale to it. This is emphatically not your vanilla pseudo-medieval orcs-and-elves-and-dwarves-oh-my fantasy world -- it may *look* like it on the surface, but there's a lot more to it than that.

Here I go again, gushing. But this game is just so damn good I can't stop myself. If I was reviewing it and defined "10/10" as "genre-defining" rather than "perfect," it'd be an easy 10/10 -- IMO this is a far more significant game than Bioshock, let alone cruft like Oblivion or (admittedly good) blasts-from-the-past like NWN2:MotB. It really combines the best of the classics (PS:T, Fallout etc.) with the best of the current state of the art.

/me looks at watch, wondering if it'd be OK to sneak home from work already

kalniel said:

Think about it a little though and it begins to make sense. This is not a well-mannered, modern, exclusive setting. This is a very medieval setting. I’m not a historian, but my guess would be that in a harsher world, where people lived from plate to mouth and without dominating civilising influences such as the church, promiscuity could well be the norm. You could argue it’s becoming so in today’s world as well. Add in the fact that Witchers are by their nature very isolated from society, are infertile and immune to disease as well, and suddenly the actions of Geralt and reactions to him become much easier to understand.

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Could you explain a bit more why a harsher world would lead to promiscuity. Could you also define promiscuity in this context. I checked dictionary.com for a definition: indulging in promiscuous (casual and indiscriminate) sexual relations. If you could just clarify your thoughts for me a bit and give a few examples, I'd understand you better.

Prime Junta said:

The world is rather intriguing, actually; I'd very much like to read the books. There certainly hasn't been any mentions of contraception but there have been mentions of unwanted pregnancies.

On the other hand, people casually talk about mutagens and genetic modification, normal causes of death include gang warfare, terrorism, and vampires, and alchemy and medicine are related, systematic, empirical sciences with their universities, practitioners, conferences, and what have you. In other words, if an alchemist can prepare a potion that'll massively accelerate your healing rate, give you night vision, or put you into a blurry, roaring slow-time (not to mention simple stuff like instant hangover cures), I'd be rather surprised if they couldn't prepare a morning-after potion, or a contraceptive one for that matter.

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The game mentions that Witchers are sterile. There've been mentions of Sorceresses being sterile as well. Most potions are only usable by witchers, they contain toxins that only a witcher's body can tolerate.

I really didn't know that you collected card for sleeping with women. I am soon in act 3. Never "played character" in a rpg that way.

I can however see how I could percieve it if i was of another gender, and had another approach to the whole thing. Perhaps i am little jaded of the man chasing women thing, since lesiure suit larry, Austin Powers, Simpsons or Southpark.
My problem lies more in other things youth watches today, without guides usurped through television - Mostly MTV.

Well, i have no problem with anything sexual oriented; depicted, ficiton, life. Everybody is drawn differently and appreciate different flavours. So, everybody isn't bound to like the cards, interestingly though, as i mentioned. I didn't know about them - yet. Got a card on triss, but i didn't add the pieces together - my fault.

My experiecne of Gothic is to present to draw me away from that fact. - But this is me. I am not a woman, and i have my history shaping me to who i am - and i don't know if i would have thought differently having my experience but having a different sex.

The most TROUBLESOME though as someone, and me, has pointed out earlier. Nobody has problem with the killing. Just the sex!!

Do you know, that in sweden, only 6% of the teacher tutoring kids in ages 13-15 years of age feel comfortable talking about sex. Do you know that we are talking more about war, movies and killing with our kids then educating people of sex and maturity. What does that imply.

Now enters a game with a view, that somewhat sexistic. A man f*cking women. (Altough not in my game - grrr). Thats not policical correct, hence people react. The view would have differed i guess if there were possibility to do it playing a female humping men. Then its fare - equal - which is good. Or?

I guess i love witcher to much. Perhaps i should start chasing down the women so i can watch my cards. But if I want porno i probably stick with watching the latest rap video from snoop dog or fifty cent.

O if i don't like the porno stuff, i stick with my swirvling death moves killing som innocent villagers combo style.

;-)

Hm, fun game.

Interestnig fact, and horrofying stuff.
Girls today wear makeup into school, age of ten, and lower.
Girls today dresses in the most daring manners in these classes, cause - this is what their Idols does. When teachers protest, try to ban some outfits and trying to restrict clothing - parents enters and defend their daughters
Boys in ages below 6 call their kindergarten buddys for whore, cause they're a) a woman, b) beeing plain stupid.

And really, we want to change the world to a more equal society, but still we are talking about pictures. Most interesting. Those kids, btw didn't play Witcher, many of them played Quake, Doom - and watches MTV. (You know entering a 10 year olds classroom today watching when they perform, its really horrific).

I do not blame MTV, or any media to whats going in with the chidlren or the teacher. i am blaming society for not taking the responisbility.

And lastly, you can get a child - cause thats your right. But getting a DOG is much much tougher - In sweden it is on going talks about getting license for owning one (dog). Still free to fuck around and get a child. Even if you are an abusing, unresponsible person. Nice.

So, do i have problem with this witcher and maturity stuff. Absolulty not. Its a wonderfull game. The problem is elsewhere!

If you wonder why i react, its because i am a teacher. I have seen the way children changes since 93. Today i work in a coorporation, enhacing their business flow. Still however, like to think i am one of the good guys.

Despite the fact.

I like The Witcher.

* gah - i had to let it off - i just had to *

Edit-
i know that people have their right to like or disslike the game. After reading some media stuff i got the feeling almost that i am a pervert for liking it.

Some very interesting thoughts, mute. I can only agree about how children seem to be losing their entitlement to a real childhood--as a teacher, you know far more than I, but even just looking at kids in the mall, I see the reflection everywhere of TV and pop culture pushing them into adult behaviour.

Then again sometimes I don't think we're any worse than in ages past--in Victorian times, poor children were put to work as young as five or six, while in medieval times, twelve and thirteen year old girls were considered of marriagable age, perhaps because of the short lifespan, but perhaps because of other more physical factors as well. I think it's just fact that humans become physically mature a whole lot earlier than they become emotionally mature.

AFA the card game, it's a tempest in a teapot IMO. I do think the way sex is handled in the Witcher can function almost totally as roleplaying, though as always with this kind of content, you're going to get a bunch of silly and immature responses from some players.

Then again sometimes I don't think we're any worse than in ages past--in Victorian times, poor children were put to work as young as five or six, while in medieval times, twelve and thirteen year old girls were considered of marriagable age, perhaps because of the short lifespan, but perhaps because of other more physical factors as well. I think it's just fact that humans become physically mature a whole lot earlier than they become emotionally mature.

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Thanks, didn't think anybody would dare to read all my text!
Concearning your above text is another thing i have been thinking about. More to fz.se review than these postings however. What if, we get so political correct that we try to dehumanize history.

Deny the fact that in pre-chistianity of Rome, to celebrate the gods was to "fuck" around. Even entering Brothels wasn't abusing anyone, it was part of the culture. Enter christianity, and there is a ban.

Not saying its right or wrong. But if developers start painting a shimmering view of the history so the view of the present becomes brighter "No there wasn't any problem with sexism in the middle ages". NOW i am REALLY making a starship from my dogs food... but, anyway. What if.

And also, as you pointed out. Is there a problem, or is it we that see the youth rebel upon us as we did our parents. Or is it we that think its okey they are just rebelling, and the we become like the frog and the boiling water.

One thing however is proven.
We as human usually reacts at the symtoms, not the desease. Only future will tell what will happens. But i think people should owe it to them selfto react when children is taking the their parents faults. It is a acute problem with our youth, but soo many times we are shooting at the wrong things.

Perhaps this is why i think its more troublsesome then ever that we are discussing some picture (i know triss's and i liked that picture, and i hope the others is as beatuful as that) and show how we feel about it instead on reacting on stuff that should be really upsetting.

I mean, how many of you saw the live feed of the journalists getting killed in Burma infront of the TV camera? When did any of you saw two people getting intimit with eachother in the same broadcast (without having certain parts heavily censored).

Hm.

*Searching for a rock, and will climb under it - waiting for mr self rightouse to go away*

(last post - promise!!)

Sorcha Ravenlock said:

The inclusion of a mini game that lets you collect cards after sleeping with women has turned me off this game completely. I can't think of anything more immature then that in all honesty.

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Not trying to flame and dont take offense, or try not to, but it's always some woman who wants to come in and plant some feminist flag where it doesnt belong.
This a video game (the realm of males old and young alike), and the setting isnt sometime last year in Los Angeles, birthplace to being PC. It's Europe in the dark ages. So guess what? This is how it was back then. Sorry you dont like it, should we rewrite history to make it easier to accept? History is what it is (or was) and this is how it WAS back then.
Now, if you have a the same game and the setting is Poland 2007 and all the characters are as 'male' as they are now, then sure, get right on your soapbox and preach.
Lets do a RPG about the Old South and lets see you preach about the treatment of the slaves in that game. Ya it was a shitty time, but thats what was going on.
Exactly how far did you get in the game before you came across this and went to get your money back?

That's quite a rush to judgement from one short post. Because Sorcha doesn't often post I feel I should say a few words in her stead. I don't know a lot about her, but I can't remember Sorcha ever pushing a feminist agenda. She's a young mother, quite a talented artist and fond of romance in games. She's European not American as well as perhaps most importantly in this context, a gamer. She is as entitled to express her opinion as you are. You may see it as a feminist flag; I see it as one gamer's opinion. You're quite free to take exception to it, of course. But your words come off sounding very defensive and you may not realize it, but this is a pretty offensive statement: "This [is] a video game (the realm of males old and young alike)..." It's not very accurate, either.

The card game *is* immature, and some people are not going to like it for that reason. It doesn't really represent the way the game deals with the male/female relationship, which to me is quite realistic if a bit simplified. I don't object to it in particular, but there was no real need to include it either IMO. And honestly, do you think the mini-game is the big factor in what makes the Witcher a great RPG?

I'm glad you're passionate about the game, and glad to see you here. Hopefully it wasn't your intent to demean anyone or suggest that being female requires you to stay away from the ultra-male province of video games.