Skyrim - 5 Five Ways to Make the Next Elder Scrolls Game Better @ Forbes

The removal of 'classes' from Skyrim didn't really bother me that much. In past TES games 'classes' were just pre-determined beginning attributes and skills. I always created a 'custom' toon anyway. There is a small part of me that does miss that process though. But for me, TES has always been more about how you play rather than how you start.
 
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The article has been written in PC Gamer site is good to see as well:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/30/15-things-we-want-to-see-in-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/
Regardless of whether Skyrim and the other TES games are RPG or not there are some issues that exist in Oblivion (the upper link) and if you look carefully you will figure out that none of them has been eliminated in Fallout 3 and Skyrim. I even suspect they will never be removed from any other Bethesda-made games. The games Bethesda makes are all similar to each other and will never go further compared to their predecessors.
 
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Stingray said:
How does that make anything moot?

Are you one of those who believes the world will end before then?
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no--by 2016 there will be new games to compare it to, including at least another bethesda game. the guy working for forbes won't be working there probably. technology will have jumped to new levels. and half of the people playing elder scrolls games won't be playing them any more in addition to whole new audiences.

bottom line is its way to early to discuss this, forgetting the fact that i disagree with most of the assesments anyhow.
 
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classes are for those without imagination
 
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Vahid said:
the article that has been written in PC Gamer site is good to see:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/30/15-things-we-want-to-see-in-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/
Regardless either Skyrim and the other TES games are RPG or not there are some issues that exist in Oblivion (the upper link) and if you look carefully you will figure out that none of them has been eliminated in Fallout 3 and Skyrim. I even suspect they will never be removed from any other Bethesda-made games. The games Bethesda makes are all similar to each other and will never go further compared to their predecessors.
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I think Bethesda are getting better and better, the faces improved in FO3 over Oblivion and slightly more in Skyrim, the dungeons seems to have improved too (still havent played enough to know for sure). FO3 was a big improvement over Oblivion i think. Bethesda are no different from anyone else, the improvements arent going to be earth shattering for every new release. I could mention numerous RPG devs where the direction isnt really heading forward.. Witcher 1 vs Witcher 2 or Risen 2 vs Gothic 2 / Risen 1, not to mention Bioware..
 
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curious said:
classes are for those without imagination
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Forcing a specific class upon the player isnt a very good approach though :/ It's like having to play the Jedi in a Star Wars RPG.
 
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#5) Bring back the stats.
#4) Hone character development and integrate some kind of class system.
#3) An end to fetch quests and better adventuring.
#2) Better storytelling.
#1) Combat.
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I definitely agree with #3 and #4 and with #5 to some degree.

It's unbelievable how easily you can end up in a cul-de-sac if you pick your skills wrong because of the level scaling. If they insist on keeping this system, they could put skills in two different categories, combat and non-combat, so that you never accidentally end up with a character that can't proceed with the main quest due to being too weak.

They should get rid of the fedex quests already. How hard can it be for a huge company such as Bethesda to hire some creative guys to come up with interesting quests? :roll:

I'm not sure if they should change the combat, though. Elder Scrolls are first person hack'n'slash games after all. It would be pretty pointless to try to be something else.
 
MigRib said:
When you play a costumizable character, and you have dialogues with NPC's and freedom of choice, you are playing a role…. Every player character in Skyrim has to be the Dovahikin, but if you don't care about the main plotline you don't even have to know that - of course it depends on the time you spend playing Skyrim, but I have a second character with which I have played two, maybe three of the major quests (but not the main plotline) and I haven't killed any dragon, learned any shout or got involved in the dragon quest (or the civil war). This character is clearly distinct from my main character, which is a typical nord warrior, who was involved in all the major quests and the main plot. There are roles in Skyrim. There are no roles in Deus Ex: HR, where you MUST play Adam Jensen. It's a great game, I love it, but Deus Ex is not trully a role playing game because it does not have roles to play, just one.
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There is zero role in Skyrim, the game. After that, you can imagine having a role. But the role only exists in your mind, not in the game.
 
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curious said:
classes are for those without imagination
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Players do not want to play RPGs. Players who want can not end with claiming that they are playing a RPG when they imagine playing one.
 
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vurt said:
You don't seem to understand that the freedom in TES (or FO1-3/FO:NV) is a part of the game mechanic. I even bought them mainly because of this. You don't need make-belief roleplaying, the game has working economics, working law/order, freedom of where to go etc etc. This allows for all kinds of situations and roleplaying because those mechanics are pretty "wide".
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None of these define a role in the game universe. There is zero roleplaying because there is no role in Skyrim.

Attributing oneself a role by creating mental constraints that only exists in your mind and that are not implemented in the game is not roleplaying. That is filling for something that does not exist in the game.

That's a pretty shitty comparison. TES is obviously limited of how you can roleplay, but please give examples of a cRPG that does it a lot better. Again, P&P RPG's doesnt always come with specific mechanics. TES has mechanics enough to allow for roleplaying, but we dont need to pretend it's going to be super complex, we're dealing with shitty computer A.I after all, like in all cRPG's..
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Non computer RPGs do not have to come with specific mechanics as they are flexible: any RP mechanism can be added or removed at will. They are part of the game though.

In a non computer game, if a role playing situation is not encompassed, a new mechanic can be designed, it can be written down and used for subsequent situations, used by other players etc They now exist in the game.

For computer games, all those mentally rules have no existence in the game. The game does not know them.
 
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I know them, that's enough.. in a P&P you also have to know / decide how to play the role - the rule book will stay unknowing. Using a computer to play a RPG will have compromises, i'm not gonna pretend there arent any, especially with the A.I. Comparing to other cRPG's might be slightly more fair ;)

What you do defines your role, your stats/skills defines your role. So i don't agree.
 
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vurt said:
I know them, that's enough.. in a P&P you also have to know / decide how to play the role.
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No, in a P&P RPG, roles are contextualized and belong to the game universe.

Divergence on interpretation of what the role is can happen but overly, players playing the same role play the same role.

When a mental substitution happens, no player plays the same role and it is way beyond interpretations on what a role is.

Because the game itself provides no game to play.
What you do defines your role, your stats defines your role. So i don't agree.
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That is indeed the path taken by many, many players which is an antithesis to RP as role playing is about constraints brought by the game universe.
Players do not decide what a role in a universe is: they play their roles against archetypes of the role. It is a matter of constraints.

In the end, I suspect that most players do not want to play RPGs, they want to play skirmish wargames or open world games.
 
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vurt said:
I think Bethesda are getting better and better, the faces improved in FO3 over Oblivion and slightly more in Skyrim, the dungeons seems to have improved too (still havent played enough to know for sure). FO3 was a big improvement over Oblivion i think. Bethesda are no different from anyone else, the improvements arent going to be earth shattering for every new release. I could mention numerous RPG devs where the direction isnt really heading forward.. Witcher 1 vs Witcher 2 or Risen 2 vs Gothic 2 / Risen 1, not to mention Bioware..
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The improvement are necessary but not efficient for a game that wins lots of awards (even best technical graphics on behalf of some sites and magazines LOL), by the way, the cases I've mentioned wasn't improved so much unlike what you said and still are poor. The Witcher 2 was one of the best games I've ever played in terms of graphics, modeling, animations and the other technical cases, it's not on a level with Skyrim or any other RPG games have been released so far. Nobody can deny that the engine used to make The Withcer 2 (RED Engine) was much more powerful than the first one (Infinity Engine) and these games can't be in comparison to each other unless you have played neither.
Today there are many games that are excellent in many cases and many that are not. If many aren't good it's not the reason for the rest to be the same. ;)
15 things that have been mentioned are "weakness points" of Oblivion (and Skyrim too) so when you speak about them you should spend much more time and eliminate them completely not only improve them a bit.
 
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ChienAboyeur said:
No, in a P&P RPG, roles are contextualized and belong to the game universe.
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Same as in a cRPG. You're limited to what roles you can play and they have to fit in within the universe, prove me wrong.. Sure, not everything you do might be reflected as in a P&P, but again it might be a bit unfair to compare them, both have their strengths and weaknesses. I see myself as both GM and player when i play for example Morrowind, but i've never had problems with constraining myself of acting like a moron in a open world game just because the option is there. When watching youtube vids its obvious many people doesnt like to roleplay, they just like to mess around, kill everyone in sight no matter who they are etc. So i do agree that most people doesnt seem to want to roleplay.

Vahid: yeah the graphics are fantastic, though it really lacks the open world exploration of TES or even Witcher 1. Elliminating something and starting from scratch often breaks something else, so it's not always as easy as it might sound. There's a reason why this never or very rarely happens with games, they progress slowly.
 
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MigRib said:
….. and are not open worldish enough to be true RPGs. ……
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vurt said:
…. though it really lacks the open world exploration of TES or even Witcher 1. …..
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Since when is "open world exploration" a mandatory requirement for an RPG? It seems to me that some people imply that RPG's with open world exploration are better by default, which is just pure nonsense.

Open world RPG's like the TES games have their strengths but they often tend to sacrifice certain areas that other people find (more) important in their RPG experience.
 
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Lots of interesting comments. The bottom line is that Skyrim has made millions and millions of dollars so I'm pretty sure they're going to make sure TES VI is VERY similar to Skyrim. I loved the game but am solidly in the camp of folks who want the NPC's to be much more fleshed out similar to New Vegas. If Bethesda would make the game, environments, etc and allow Obsidian to write the story, I think we'd have a winner. Combat could be improved, but not at the cost of the sandbox experience. I was hoping DLC would flesh out npcs. Take Riverwood and give everyone a real life. If someone dies, allow Radiant story to have the town take up a collection for a resurrection. Let the annoying boy follow you to Bleak Falls Barrow and get lost trying to keep up. Write a story connecting all the dragon claw keys. Tie this story to a Dragon worship cult, etc.
 
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vurt said:
I think Bethesda are getting better and better, the faces improved in FO3 over Oblivion and slightly more in Skyrim, the dungeons seems to have improved too (still havent played enough to know for sure). FO3 was a big improvement over Oblivion i think. Bethesda are no different from anyone else, the improvements arent going to be earth shattering for every new release. I could mention numerous RPG devs where the direction isnt really heading forward.. Witcher 1 vs Witcher 2 or Risen 2 vs Gothic 2 / Risen 1, not to mention Bioware..
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TES games are poor DMs.

"Here you go dudez, enjoy the space like I´m not at all here.
C´mon, hunt something."
 
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I agree that it needs better storytelling, but I disagree with the articles ideas on how to make it better. I have a difficult time following the story in every Elder Scrolls game and generally can't tell the difference between the main quests and the side quests (other than the game bolding the main quest in your journal -- come on!)
 
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