Who will win the 2012 US Presidential Election?

Of course, the righties will say any government expansion is not centrist. :rolleyes: That's simply a side effect about how extremely right they have flown, and the reason this country has become so fucked up.
 
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Actually, I'd turn that thought around. When the left will call socialized medicine a centrist policy, it demonstrates just how far in the liberal weeds they've gone, which might explain why this country has become so fucked up.
 
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His "crown jewel" policy is socialized medicine. How do you, in any universe, call that centrist?

Count the number of Western European countries without it.

Übereil, abolishing it is considered far right politics here
 
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By DTEs argument, social security, medicare, and welfare is also socialism. But of course, DTE would never call the US government socialism. :rolleyes:

The truth is that rightes like to try to demonize everything left of far right with silly emotional references to words like socialism and liberalism, rather than provide any factual basis for their arguments.
 
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Because only in USA universal health care is considered, by some, as "socialized"?

Count the number of Western European countries without it.

Why stop at "Western"? Count the number of European countries without it I would say.
 
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Count the number of Western European countries without it.

Übereil, abolishing it is considered far right politics here
And were we talking European politics, your point would be relevant.
 
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Where did I use the word consistent?

Hmm, I misread centrist as consistent I guess. It depends on the policy. He is centrist in many ways but also pretty far left in some.
 
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Actually, I'd turn that thought around. When the left will call socialized medicine a centrist policy, it demonstrates just how far in the liberal weeds they've gone, which might explain why this country has become so fucked up.

You're not calling a system whereby individuals and/or employers are required to purchase health insurance from private companies socialized medicine are you? Even Gingrich referred to it as a "back door road to socialized medicine" rather than as actually being socialized medicine.

Granted that socialized healthcare is certainly a popular policy goal among some liberal circles, but I just want to make sure we're not mixing up apples and orangutangs. Complaining about the mandate is not something I'll completely disagree about either.
 
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Ah but it is. Since there is more Europeans than Americans and, since quite a few Americans support universal health care, the voice of majority says that your views are no more than those of vocal minority.

And, as jhwisner pointed out, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Almost every country in Europe have their own (and different) way of implementing universal health care.
 
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By DTEs argument, social security, medicare, and welfare is also socialism. But of course, DTE would never call the US government socialism. :rolleyes:

How is it inaccurate to refer to those "social" programs as socialism? I fail to see how socialism cannot exist to degrees or in certain areas without the entire government being considered a socialist regime.
 
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Ah but it is. Since there is more Europeans than Americans and, since quite a few Americans support universal health care, the voice of majority says that your views are no more than those of vocal minority.

And, as jhwisner pointed out, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Almost every country in Europe have their own (and different) way of implementing universal health care.

Europeans do not dictate American politics. We are happy to listen to your opinions, but just because there are more of you does not mean we need to share your values. In the US, this is a subject of debate. At issue for a large number of us is the issue of choice, getting down to our core reverence of liberty.
 
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Socialism is a form of government, not a kind of program. Social program is the correct word. But, the right likes to use the word socialism to scare people. :rolleyes:
 
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And, as jhwisner pointed out, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Almost every country in Europe have their own (and different) way of implementing universal health care.

Well I guess what I was getting at is that the mandate isn't socialism at all. It's a sort of weird animal that you don't see very much of. It doesn't really seem to owe itself to any particular ideology and is non-trivially different from he auto-insurance requirement; though perhaps you could call it a misbegotten byproduct of pragmatism in the flavor of a semi-private cartel system?
 
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It was the only way they could get the righties to sign the bill; the health care industry overlords threatened to drop campaign contributions, otherwise. Corruption, plain and simple.
 
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It was the only way they could get the righties to sign the bill; the health care industry overlords threatened not drop campaign contributions, otherwise. Corruption, plain and simple.

Yeah that's why one of the few words I could really think of that fit was pragmatism. I guess it doesn't really help make anyone's points though to suggest that the Republican alternative to single payer or public option - this mandate - might be better classified as a child of corporate statism than capitalism or socialism.

Repub "Our dinner has been laced with poison!"
Dems "You're the ones who bought the poison and told us it was the only way you'd eat it!"
Republicans "Still, pretty dumb of you to dump in a box of something with big skull and crossbones on it wasn't it?"
Dems "WTF!"
 
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Socialism is a form of government, not a kind of program. Social program is the correct word. But, the right likes to use the word socialism to scare people. :rolleyes:
Please quote where I used the word socialism. You were the one to bring that out in a fine attempt to derail the uncomfortable topic. Don't you have a favorite phrase for that little logical faux pas? Something about dried wheat, perhaps?
 
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Please quote where I used the word socialism. You were the one to bring that out in a fine attempt to derail the uncomfortable topic. Don't you have a favorite phrase for that little logical faux pas? Something about dried wheat, perhaps?

Well the reason I started talking about it was because the use of the term "socialized" in the context of "socialized medicine" carries the definition of something having been made socialistic (as opposed to meaning having aquired a personal identity and learns the norms, values, behavior, and social skills appropriate to his or her social position.) That the use of the term "socialized" pertains to socialism is unambiguous not arguable; what is debateable then is whether "socialized medicine" is appropriate in reference to something like Obama Care/ The Affordable Care Act is debatable particularly if the act is not socialistic and therefore not a form of socialized medicine.

Ultimately though the technically more proper classification of the mandate in particular may have far more unpleasant sounding synonyms; considering members on both sides of the aisle have supported mandates to some degree at various times I can also see why they shy away from the more inflammatory and arguably more accurate label.
 
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One thing to keep in mind as you parse it out is the difference between ObamaCare as proposed and ObamaCare as passed. I would offer that Barack's advertised/campaigned vision of his "crown jewel" was even more deserving of the socialized medicine label than the pile of crap (as described by both sides, except for Ms. Pelosi-ov, who couldn't be bothered to actually read it) that actually became law.

And, if we're going to dig out our textbooks here and impress each other, I'd say you could make a fairly convincing argument that ObamaCare isn't that far from Webster-approved socialism. While the government would not technically own the means of production, by controlling all payments made within it the government would have an incredible amount of control upon those means. I believe control of means of production satisfies the textbook definition of socialism, yes?
 
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