Grimoire - Crowdfunding campaign at indiegogo

Have you? Publishers and outside funding are not a requirement. Traditionally games have been funded with the profits from previous projects, just like companies in general have funded their R&D and future investments.

Hey, I'm not saying Kickstarter can't be a good thing. I just suspect we have come to a point where game devs, who could have funded the game by themselves, are simply (mis)using Kickstarter, like Grimoire. I'm sorry I brought up Obsidian, I don't know what their financial situation is. I just find it iffy and suspicious that devs you could have assumed would have been able to publish a project without any kickstart, are now asking for the gaming community to pay $140 for something that would cost $70 in a store. In exchange of "feeling good".

Yes i have been involved in indie game development a few times. Traditionally games uses publishers, which doesnt mean its preferable. I dont know the developer of Grimoire and if he has the money to fund / continue his project, and i really dont care, because i'm not forced to fund it.
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Messages
3,263
Location
The land of rape and honey
Have you? Publishers and outside funding are not a requirement. Traditionally games have been funded with the profits from previous projects, just like companies in general have funded their R&D and future investments.

The main problem is that with standard business model it's usual to be paid for your work. In game development publishers often take the advantage of overpriced international lawsuit and simply don't pay you. I am speaking from my own experience having developed 4 games myself and participated on many others.

That's the unbelievable wild-west in game industry, which is not imaginable elsewhere (well, music recording industry came close once). There are also very good publishers who have been nice to us of course.

With our last game only a proper cease and desist letter costed us 2000 GBP and we will never see a dime from sales till this day. Moreover we had to pay taxes from the royalty invoices which were never paid to us. Expenses would vastly overshadow the incomes.

And even if the said publisher breached the contract in 10 or so points, it's just a piece of paper. Unless you are rich enough to afford good international lawyers, which indie studio rarely is. And the prices go there to hundreds of thousands of pounds.

So this is where kickstarter comes in. You can afford to develop your game without investing your own money and risking that someone will steal it. Moreover you know your audience and this is all great idea. Unfortunately it attracts also people who want to abuse the system. Still I am glad kickstarter exists.

Kickstarter was never meant to be a preorder system. People perceive it as one nowadays, but the idea about rewards is to get people something extra for their bigger donations.

The cost of production is what matters. Even if people worked for quite a minimum salary eg. $1300, with taxes here you have to pay almost $2000 per month/man.

That's 24000 / year. If the team has 5 people (tiny indie team) and they agreed upon such a low salary, you have to give them $120 000. Usually the development cycle for a game is around 2 years so $240 000. Count in studio expenses (office, computers, software and upgrades, telephones etc. etc.) Is it still weird to ask for such a money?

Now basically the majority of your audience already pledged (in case of indies) so if you calculate it exactly for the development span cycle and even if you are absolutely on the time with the release, another problem occurs. What next? You've burned your money already on the development and you have none to pay for the upcoming few months? Or you close down after this one game?

So I can see, that some of the indies count with this and add a little bit extra to survive before the game sort of picks up with another sales.

This being said, I fear that the idea of Kickstarter for indies might die because the big names will take all the money playing the "it's safe to invest with us, we're experienced" tune. Crowdfunders only have a limited amount of money and with this huge influx of projects they of course prefer the safe ones. :)

Just my 2 extremely long (sorry about that) cents.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
51
I really don't know if Obsidian needs money, but as an established company one could think they have some from their previous games. I admit I don't know anything about Double Fine, I just assumed it's a startup (I didn't even hear about their kickstart until it was over) like Jane Jensen's Pinkerton Road Studios.

Ah, Google is your friend. ;) Double Fine has 9 or 10 published games including some Kinect stuff and Brutal Legend, a AAA console action game. If Obsidian could pay their own way, so could Double Fine, which confused me.

As for paying $140 for something you could get for $70, it's not about that. After all, you could pay $15-$20 and get a digital copy of the game or…just don't bother. Let everyone else Kickstart it and just buy the game if it releases. It's about support, not the dollars, and noone is forcing anyone.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
11,842
Location
Sydney, Australia
As I understand it, most Developer studios simply don't have much own money they could invest. They virtually live from advance to advance, totally dependent on publisher funding for the next project. A successful game seems to generally benefit the publisher, but rarely the developer. They may sometimes have contract clauses that give bonuses for good performance (like the one that Obsidian just missed with F:NV), but it seems they rarely get a direct cut from sales. That is one reason why Dev studios die so easily - just a few months delay in securing the next contract, and poof, funds are burnt, you're dead.
There are a few exceptions to this that I am aware off, that are truly self-funded indies - Larian being the most notable one, probably. Of course if the PE game sells beyond the Kickstarter supporters, it may create the basis for Obsidian doing more independent games in the future.

Regarding Grimoire: The only reason I can see to pledge here is getting the exclusive physical copy of the game. Or supporting Cleve because... well, just because. Since I am not interested in either, I am happy to wait until/if the game is out, and consider a purchase then. After all it will be published "no matter what"...
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
3,508
As for paying $140 for something you could get for $70, it's not about that. After all, you could pay $15-$20 and get a digital copy of the game or…just don't bother. Let everyone else Kickstart it and just buy the game if it releases. It's about support, not the dollars, and noone is forcing anyone.

Yes, I get that. My point is that Grimoire can't be the only kickstart that doesn't need that support. Kickstarts sell the idea that backers are making games a reality that would not otherwise be funded. While this might be true in most cases, backers really have no way of knowing if there's an actual need for money. It's basically a good system if used correctly, but it's also easy to abuse. I think we'll see more kickstarts like Grimoire which are not about funding at all.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
157
I really don't know if Obsidian needs money, but as an established company one could think they have some from their previous games. I admit I don't know anything about Double Fine, I just assumed it's a startup (I didn't even hear about their kickstart until it was over) like Jane Jensen's Pinkerton Road Studios.

All of Obsidian previous games have been contractual works, do this, get paid this amount. Once the game released they got nothing from them.

Usually these type of contractual works pay the salaries of the people working on the project + a little amount to make the company works. This is why Obsidian have to layoff developers when project get cancelled.
 
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
7,313
All of Obsidian previous games have been contractual works, do this, get paid this amount. Once the game released they got nothing from them.

Usually these type of contractual works pay the salaries of the people working on the project + a little amount to make the company works. This is why Obsidian have to layoff developers when project get cancelled.

This is true to a certain extent for several companies. If my company has a project, we'll bring in thousands of people for the duration of the project. Projects can last as little as a month or as long as 5+ years. As the job peaks and plummets those contractors are laid off. The profit/benefit of their work then goes directly to us, the non-contracted employees. We, in turn, then look towards the next project that needs to be addressed. The cycle then repeats.

The companies that win make sure to earn enough profit in the non-contractor times to fund more and more projects and have money left over besides. This is the story of a successful venture. Companies that do this successfully over a period of time are eventually purchased by a larger company :) This is the story of Bethesda Softworks, in fact. The place where I work has been bought and sold a dozen times, but I still do my same job in my same office.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
8,836
I think the point of the confusion is that you originally separated Obsidian (a "functioning company") from Double Fine (who…aren't? Confused.)

If we are talking about Grimoire, I'm sure a lot of people agree they don't need the money. If we are talking about Obsidian, I'm sure most disagree.

How does that make any sense? Obsidion which is a company vs a one man show trying to complete a game....Obsidion needs the money but Cleve does not? I would say they both need the money for what they want to do.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
5,749
Who cares who needs the money most and what they need it for?
They present their proposals and it's up to each individual to decide if what they offer is worth investing in advance and how much. Figuring out how to spend it is their problem.
As long as they deliver what they promise they can ask for 10 mil and waste it all on crack for all I care.
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
693
How does that make any sense? Obsidion which is a company vs a one man show trying to complete a game….Obsidion needs the money but Cleve does not? I would say they both need the money for what they want to do.

Errr, because his game (if we believe him) is basically already done? And he does not depend on it for income anyway?

Just looking at his own list:

Enhancements Planned During Next Six Months :
1.Increase screen resolution to 1024x768 and viewport size to 720x600
2.All new title screen with animated logo
3.New animated intro, cutscenes and in-game animation sequences
4.Integration of additional monster and magic spell animations
5.Improvements to animation engine and transitions
6.Detailed improvements to user interface and icon presentation

Achievement of Funding Goals :
1.New music score & sound effects
2.Additional animation sequences to enhance all aspects of gameplay
3.Possible ports to IOS, Linux, IPad and Android platforms
4.Work begins immediately on sequel after release

There is nothing there that "needs" to be done to release the game. And as far as nice to have itmes go, they would not seem to require anyhwere near what his funding goal is. However the funding goal is pretty much fluff anyway in a flexible funding campaign. And apparently (again, if you believe him) he wants to release 2013 "no matter what". To me, this is a preorder. Which is actually fine by me, but it IS a difference to actually funding the development of a game.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
3,508
I think he aimed high with the amount myself ad he has nothing to lose by doing that. Changing the resolution seems small to a lot of people, but I'm going to assume the art will have to be redone for a lot of things since it is all 2d.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
5,749
He explained it cost him over 250K over the past 17 years and he wants to recoup his investment.

That's basically it.
Yes, this makes good sense. Considering the time investment he made over all those years along with paying for the art, etc. I don't begrudge him wanting to recoup his investment of time and money. It does amount to mostly a pre-order in that case though. It's flex-funding so it doesn't hurt to aim high I suppose.

I must say the pitch video was entertaining and the game most likely is entertaining too. The question remains - do I trust my money with a self-proclaimed madman? Hmm, I guess some madmen have been known to create good works throughout history. At least I have a few months to decide (or just wait for release).
 
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Messages
510
Location
Oregon
There is nothing there that "needs" to be done to release the game. And as far as nice to have itmes go, they would not seem to require anyhwere near what his funding goal is. However the funding goal is pretty much fluff anyway in a flexible funding campaign. And apparently (again, if you believe him) he wants to release 2013 "no matter what". To me, this is a preorder. Which is actually fine by me, but it IS a difference to actually funding the development of a game.

If one looked at it as that - as a preorder for a game that will be done no matter what - then wouldn't the primary advantage of using a site like indiegogo be the limitation and convolution of liabilities in the event that the unforseeable happened and the game was not actually released? That is as opposed to doing payments directly as a clear preorder on one's own online vendor or a site like kickstarter which would at least provide the added benefit of greater publicity and a larger donor pool.
 
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
1,710
Yep. Clearly, if most of the work is done, then he should be able to recoup his expenses to date through sales. But of course, if he didn't release he wouldn't get money. Thus, the crowd funding. Color me skeptical. I'd still like to see it released!
 
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
15,682
Location
Studio City, CA
I dont think 25$ is too much to pay for a truly epic rpg. If he indeed delivers on that, ill consider it money well spent.

If not, then im out 25 bucks (other people far more) and he's made a lot of enemies. Im willing to take that risk to support a fellow RPG geek's magnum opus. He's put his heart into this game, you can't say that for most developers of games these days. I think that's worthy of support
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
5,228
Location
San Diego, Ca
I dont think 25$ is too much to pay for a truly epic rpg. If he indeed delivers on that, ill consider it money well spent.

If not, then im out 25 bucks (other people far more) and he's made a lot of enemies. Im willing to take that risk to support a fellow RPG geek's magnum opus. He's put his heart into this game, you can't say that for most developers of games these days. I think that's worthy of support

Well said.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
5,749
I want the fucking 100 page manual on paper ;) - pledged as Pilgrim.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
20,013
Location
Germany
Back
Top Bottom