What will be Bioshock's impact on the cRPG?

magerette said:

but I am of the ilk that would rather die and reload than have everybody jump up like nothing happened and move on, as in KotOR. Dieing is a mistake in tactics, I'd like to rectify it myself, not pretend I actually played just swell.

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It is funny - I'm loving Jeanne D'Arc on the PSP, but unlike in Fire Emblem GBA games your units aren't *dead* when they fall in battle - if Jeanne makes it through everyone survives. I like the thought that you are protecting *characters*, not just playing short-term strategy with units.

Nice well thought of points DArtagnan. Agree with most of them.

Concearning the Vita chambers they ruined my game. Some fights was almost made with the vita chambers in thought (i stink with action fps! ). And some tactics i used was kill untill killed. Revive, continue kill. What captivated me in this game was the story. However. I don't think anybody got surprised over the "twists". It was soo system shock 2 (Soo 90...) .

And this is nothing like savespots cause, the damage done when you done to the enemy is still there...

What i didn't understand really was why I did regenerate in the vita chambers and the enemy did not. In System Shock, i flip the switch so when i am dragged into the the revival chambers by the mutants, robots or whatever (i think its them that drag me there) i end up as a human not as a cyborg. I am playing in the world. I am part of it, but i flipped the switch end changed my odds.

Since the game heaviily borrowed from SS/SS2 i think they could have fitted something like that into the game. it would certainly have me think more. And of course, reuse the levels... too bad, you never revisti any place you left. Even though Ken Levine said they did. You don't.

Still a great game. If it wasn't created by Irrational games (errr) 2k Boston, i would have just enjoyed it and let it be. Now i want perfection and this can be better then its spiritual predecessors!

I am just nitpicking!

SPOILERS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>









in order to open up sander cohen's room upstairs in olympus heights you have to not kill him in fort frolic which i did the first time through the game. you then get access to items in that room as well as his key that you can use back in fort frolic.

also traveling to the farmers market via aracadia and then back to arcadia is not optional and i'm pretty sure qualifies as returning to a level.







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besides, many of the levels are massive and have you going from one end to the other and all over the place, many times in whatever order you want. many shooters don't even give you even close to that luxury. (or rpgs for that matter)

curiously undead said:

i'm still confused how people can be upset with the u-invent (inventors are supposed to be smarter than the average bear) and then say that there is more than enough items/ammo and money to go around. its not like when you invent the stuff it vanishes into thin air. it just drops to the ground where you can handily pick it up. system shock 2 did this is well but apparently people forgot. when you had the limit of a stack it would simply fall to the ground when you purchased something that theres wasn't room in your inventory. so in that case you had to check your inventory first. its no different in bioshock, taking the same amount of time just a bit more brain power, since you have to subtract (which an inventor should have no problem doing).

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Actually, in System Shock 2, the machines functioned more like a real one, meaning the stuff would drop out of a slot for you to pick it up. The big difference is that you could carry nearly unlimited amount of stuff, especially commonly used items like ammo and hypos.

In Bioshock, you can carry a very limited amount of stuff, especially something like ammo and hack tools. I'm not saying it's a huge issue, but I will claim to be a relatively smart player and even I managed to forget the amount of hack tools (hmm, did I have 4 or 5?) and since you had to actually hack something to tell, you just couldn't get that info. So the stuff just drops to the ground and you can't pick it up, and by the time you'll need to, you'll most likely have forgotten where it was anyway. Luckily, the game was crawling with stuff, so there was never really any need to buy something. I could have saved a LOT of money by realising this earlier, but I kept wanting it to be more meaningful.

and it doesn't make sense to have a genetonic inventory since this its not in the present or future where a cybernetic implant would be able to be "accessed" in a self diagnostic kind of way. again i think this adds realism and difficulty to the game.

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Realism?

You think it's realistic to have a health and eve bar in the left corner? You think it's realism to carry more weapons and ammo than Rambo did in his entire carreer at once? You think it's realistic you can stop time and select from a menu what weapon/plasmid you choose? You think it's realistic you automatically get a map on some futuristic screen that you show no evidence of carrying?

I'm not following you here.

as far as the vita chambers are concerned i think it could have added a bit to the game if they did have to be activated (though that could have been tricky will the plot), but they surely could have had some kind of cost in either credits or a weakened or slowed state for a brief gaming period. 95% of the time i reloaded as well.

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I would have preferred no Vita chambers at all, simply because I don't find it fits with the story. Suchong even points this out in a log somewhere, talking about how he (as the most prominent scientist) has no idea how it works. Why in the world would they have this technology, and why doesn't Ryan use it then? It's a very weakly implemented crutch, if you ask me.

But if they HAD to do it, I would have preferred the option to turn it off entirely at the "start game" stage, or at least do it like System Shock 1+2 where there's only 1 each level so you can't easily abuse it. That, or make the cost significantly high, only that would be meaningless since no one would ever pay a high cost when they can simply reload and no fights are challenging anyway.

nevertheless i enjoy reading your well thought out opinions on the game DArtagnan.

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I'm glad, and I'm also enjoying your response

i guess my arguement for realism doesn't hold up that well, but surely some game comprimises and standards have to be met.


oh but ryan does use them. remember the comment that is on an audio log that says it will work with anyone who's a close relative. cross referenced with another one that says something about only ryan (and maybe a few others) having access and then, though i didn't catch this til the 2nd time through, the vita chamber in ryan's office is turned off and you can turn it back on. to me that makes it a key factor in the games story, that ryan new what was coming and turned it off deliberately. why else would he provoke you then?

curiously undead said:

i guess my arguement for realism doesn't hold up that well, but surely some game comprimises and standards have to be met.


oh but ryan does use them. remember the comment that is on an audio log that says it will work with anyone who's a close relative. cross referenced with another one that says something about only ryan (and maybe a few others) having access and then, though i didn't catch this til the 2nd time through, the vita chamber in ryan's office is turned off and you can turn it back on. to me that makes it a key factor in the games story, that ryan new what was coming and turned it off deliberately. why else would he provoke you then?

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There's a difference between being able to use them and actually using them.

I never saw any mention anywhere in the game related to Ryan actually using them, or how they could possibly get their hands on that level of technology. Plasmids are one thing, immortality is quite another if you ask me.

Besides, the whole turning it off deliberately thing made no sense to me, and though I understand how it could be woven into the story in relation to the "you're a slave" point, it still makes absolutely no sense to me. Ryan wouldn't have lost a thing by being resurrected because that would just be another case of him being in control. The chambers remain one of the weakest plot points of the game, but again, that's just what I think.

Levine chose to go beyond a typical weak "gamey" story, and as such it is subject to the kind of criticism such a story should get. It had potential, but it was nowhere near as profound as it promised.

I agree with you DArtagnan. Story could have been less copied, and more innovative. But, nevertheless it was well executed.

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but ryan new his time was up. by him dying it did do something to prove to you what was going, on and one last time trying to get through to you. ultimately he had more vision and was why he built the city, and fontaine fought to the end, this was also brought up by McCoulugh or whatever his name was (one of the "best" characters morality wise in the game, a shame you never got to meet him). if ryan had used the vita chamber it wouldn't had mattered, you'd "bested all his defenses", and were clearly much stronger so you could have destroyed the vita chamber in a stupid boss fight and then him. i really don't see how the resolution could have been any better or more powerful. it was disturbing though, even after having witness all prior events in the game. ryan was all about power of the mind, and will which is a fitting end for him. fontaine was a conman, though clever, he sought shear power at any cost, he got it and is why the fitting megafreak battle was a fitting end. sure the ending didn't require much planning or skill, but you have to think in gaming and story themes. he wanted you to drain the little sisters (THE key element of the game story and design from day one-adam) but in the end you helped them, they helped you and together you toppled the man holding up the world, and the little sisters get a chance to go ape shit. i couldn't think of a better ending dispite its lack of grandiosity. the system shock endings may have been more "like whoa" but overall bioshock (bio-life, system-inorganic structure) had a much more human feel to it, from the dead and living npcs. its only fitting then the end should reflect that and not just be a multi part final boss fight. endings to good story are usually not that rewarding anyhow as the best encompassed so much prior, and the sadness of it being all over sets in.

More than ever I wish I could play this game for myself, but I can't so I appreciate hearing the discussion from all parties. It seems to me, that like all things with a claim to art, what you get from it has something to do with what you bring to it.

I only hope all the people who will someday develop the next crop of cRPGs are playing this game and letting it creep into their subconscious minds, so they can someday take the best qualities and bring them into a more fully realized role playing mode, because this kind of ambiguity and tension is what makes stories immersive, characters meaningful and games rewarding to play.

Well, I think it would be cool, anyway.

magarette, why can't you play the game yourself?

For those of you who are bitching about the Vita-chambers, just don't use them!

Nobody is forcing you to use them, I haven't used them a single time. Whenever I get killed I just reload from my last save, and I intentionally don't save very often, maybe twice per level.

I also disagree with the comments on the item carrying limit. If anything it's too much, not too little. I think they should have only allowed 5 or 6 med kits to be carried at one time, they also have way too many just lying around. There wasn't a single time where I thought "oh shit, I'm getting low on med kits". They also should have limited the number of med kits and hypos you could buy from the machines. They could have made it more realistic by having a random number for different machines ie: 3-7 or something in that area. It would have greatly added to the atmosphere and tension in the game to know that there was a finite supply of healing items available.

JDR13 said:

magarette, why can't you play the game yourself?

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Serious heaving-level motion sickness. Don't get it with many games, fortunately, mostly just with the free camera attached to the mouse ones.

"Nice" too see someone else having these problems. Many games, FPS, is a no go for me. Specially Halflife 2 which i had to abruptly stop playing to not have me vomit. I know people have doubted this game make people vomit, but me it was true. Half-life 2 is impossible for me to even try playing. 5 min, and my stomach want to turn itself outside in.

Stalker is also a game thats on the virge of what i can play or not. Thank god i could approach Bioshock as a RPG, with slowly progress and take my time going through the levels. To not be able to experience this game would have been sad for me. No matter what i written, this game is a great game. (I just whish it would have been more ... )

But, i am envious of all people being able to play those FPS games without any kind of motion sickness... (Only FPS games make me motionsickness. Nothing else, real life or virtual... Skydiving, flying, sailing. gocarts, rally - bring it on. Halflife 2 or FPS - na, i better pass. )