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DArtagnan
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If this is about wanting to put me down, then there are much more efficient ways. But, I suggest you PM me for advice on that - and we let this thread get back on topic?
RPG Codex - Top 70 PC RPG List
- Thread starter Couchpotato
- Start date
Drithius
Magic & Loss
To go back to the comment in which it is stated that Skyrim is not a stellar game worthy of a vote but rather a mediocre one, I agree with the sentiment but it has two problems given the poll:
1) It depends on the audience you ask; of course it will never stand up to scrutiny by the type of person to visit the Codex.
2) The argument falls apart once you begin ranking. Regardless of what people continue to repeat to themselves in an effort to make it believable, the list *IS* ranked and so a modicum of sensibility is required. To say Skyrim doesn't belong anywhere on a 1-70 list is disingenuous.
1) It depends on the audience you ask; of course it will never stand up to scrutiny by the type of person to visit the Codex.
2) The argument falls apart once you begin ranking. Regardless of what people continue to repeat to themselves in an effort to make it believable, the list *IS* ranked and so a modicum of sensibility is required. To say Skyrim doesn't belong anywhere on a 1-70 list is disingenuous.
One last time: This lists represents the summarized voting of Codex users representing their top 5 (if you give 5 points for each game) up to maximal top 25 (if you give only 1 point for each game).
Nobody could enter his personal top 70 list. Skyrim would certainly be in, in such a voting process.
This is a cumulated subjective top 5 / top 25 list of CRPGs and borderline CRPGs.
All games below rank 70 got less than 10 cumulated points.
Skyrim not in the top 70 just means: It was not in enough individual top-lists to get over the cut.
The book will include Elder Scrolls games. The book will list all games chronological without ranking.
Nobody could enter his personal top 70 list. Skyrim would certainly be in, in such a voting process.
This is a cumulated subjective top 5 / top 25 list of CRPGs and borderline CRPGs.
All games below rank 70 got less than 10 cumulated points.
Skyrim not in the top 70 just means: It was not in enough individual top-lists to get over the cut.
The book will include Elder Scrolls games. The book will list all games chronological without ranking.
In my case, because of this list I added to my 'to play someday' list:
- Jagged Alliance 2: I didn't particularly enjoy JA1 (only played like 5 missions before abandoning it). Is JA2 that much better and/or different from JA1 that I should give it a go?
- Darklands: Its age might be an issue. I'm not a 'graphic whore' by any means, but my mind does put a limit on how old a game can look to be able to play it, and this one falls far behind it. Still, at #18 it may actually happen.
- Knights of the Chalice: Same issue as Darklands, looks too 'old school', but it's constantly mentioned here in the Watch.
- Jagged Alliance 2: I didn't particularly enjoy JA1 (only played like 5 missions before abandoning it). Is JA2 that much better and/or different from JA1 that I should give it a go?
- Darklands: Its age might be an issue. I'm not a 'graphic whore' by any means, but my mind does put a limit on how old a game can look to be able to play it, and this one falls far behind it. Still, at #18 it may actually happen.
- Knights of the Chalice: Same issue as Darklands, looks too 'old school', but it's constantly mentioned here in the Watch.
I actually really like reading Darts text walls. I very seldom agree with his opinions, but it would be kind of boring if everyone always agreed wouldn't it? I enjoy reading what HiddenX writes too, but we're almost always of the same opinion.
As I see it the Watch offers me two things. Alot of information on games I haven't played but might want to, and since I know roughly which Watchers opinions match my own I know whom to listen to in the discussions. The other thing it offers is a couple of people who doesn't at all share my opinion, but can give their own without resorting to trolling. Dart is one of them, and I actually think it makes this site better, not worse.
As I see it the Watch offers me two things. Alot of information on games I haven't played but might want to, and since I know roughly which Watchers opinions match my own I know whom to listen to in the discussions. The other thing it offers is a couple of people who doesn't at all share my opinion, but can give their own without resorting to trolling. Dart is one of them, and I actually think it makes this site better, not worse.
@Wolfing:
JA 2 is a game for you if you like tactical turn based fighting. The mercenaries have all very different abilities and traits. Some like each other some hate each other, so you have to plan which ones you stick together in your 3 squads.
You can develop all mercs including your own character. Yo can even go solo in the game (very challenging).
The game has a strategic element, too: you can free cities to gain resources, you can free anti-aircraft bases to fly with a helicopter.
It is together with Fallout 1, Gothic 2 NOTR and Wizardry 6,7,8 the game with my most play-throughs. It is better than JA 1. There are tons of free good fan made mods for this game on the market.
Knights of the Chalice offers the best challenging D&D combat in ages. The game looks ugly as hell, but it is really fun.
This game has only a minimal story and is only about C.O.M.B.A.T.
Avoid too much item crafting, the game gets unbalanced with too good self-made items.
Darklands simulates Germany in the middle ages. Very much detail is implemented in the historic setting. Combat is real time and a bit clumsy.
A very ambitious sandbox game that you can play for years.
My ranking (for playing it today):
(1) JA 2 -> you can get fan-made V1.13, too. (higher resolution and other enhancements)
(2) Knights of the Chalice
(3) Darklands
My ranking (historical value):
(1) JA 2
(2) Darklands
(3) Knights of the Chalice
JA 2 is a game for you if you like tactical turn based fighting. The mercenaries have all very different abilities and traits. Some like each other some hate each other, so you have to plan which ones you stick together in your 3 squads.
You can develop all mercs including your own character. Yo can even go solo in the game (very challenging).
The game has a strategic element, too: you can free cities to gain resources, you can free anti-aircraft bases to fly with a helicopter.
It is together with Fallout 1, Gothic 2 NOTR and Wizardry 6,7,8 the game with my most play-throughs. It is better than JA 1. There are tons of free good fan made mods for this game on the market.
Knights of the Chalice offers the best challenging D&D combat in ages. The game looks ugly as hell, but it is really fun.
This game has only a minimal story and is only about C.O.M.B.A.T.
Avoid too much item crafting, the game gets unbalanced with too good self-made items.
Darklands simulates Germany in the middle ages. Very much detail is implemented in the historic setting. Combat is real time and a bit clumsy.
A very ambitious sandbox game that you can play for years.
My ranking (for playing it today):
(1) JA 2 -> you can get fan-made V1.13, too. (higher resolution and other enhancements)
(2) Knights of the Chalice
(3) Darklands
My ranking (historical value):
(1) JA 2
(2) Darklands
(3) Knights of the Chalice
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I don't have a problem with Skyrim not being on the list. I never expected anything else from the Codex. But fact is, I only found 5 games on this top70 list that I don't own and still love Oblivion, Skyrim and Fallout 3. Go call me heretic.
That being said, I'd truely would love to see your CRPG-Meter for Morrowind or Gothic 1…. and shred it to pieces, even though I love Morrowind.
Morrowind:
Characters - about 2-3 interesting ones. Crassius Curio, Yagrum Bagarn and Vivec come to mind. Everyone else is as interchangeable as it gets. Now take a look at Skyrim's Riften alone with: a power-hungry Maven Black-Briar, the kinky Haelga, Brynjolf, the scatty Wylandriah…. even a low priority NPC like Sapphire (thieves guild, 1 very minor sidequest) has an interesting backstory which gets expanded with Dragonborn where you can discover her father.
NPC interactions - you're kidding, right? NPC interactions among themselves - 0. First implemented (admittedly in a humpy way) in Oblivion, refined with Skyrim.
Interactions with the player? Morrowind came with a lot more text / infos, right. But ask any of the 90+ NPCs in Balmora about Balmora and you get - the very same copy/paste response, word for word, from all of them. Compare it with Skyrim, where all NPCs have a lot less to say, but a lot more varied responses. What was that about quantity and quality again?
Gothic 1:
- respawning the complete game world with new mobs at a very specific questpoint 2 or 3 times isn't immersion breaking. Refilling dungeons in Skyrim is….
- beating up the blacksmith 10 times in a row, stealing the last piece of scrap he has on him and he's still willing to sell / buy from me. Hard consequences? Believable gameworld or NPC interaction? Nope. Possible explanation: this guy is THAT good at role playing….
33k mods for Skyrim on the Nexus alone speaks a bit about loyal group of supporters. Why there's practically 0 on the Codex, is another story and pretty much self-imposed.
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Objectivity. Plain and simple.
Given where it's coming from (Codex) and your approach with user-reviews, example Gothic 1:
I expect none of it. So I'm still covered with Matt Bartons Dungeons and Desktops: The History of Computer Role-Playing Games, thank you. But good luck anyway.
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It doesn't have to understand it. The fact that it allows it, is more than most RPGs can claim.
You wanna follow that road the devs laid out for you with 2-3 doors to step through, never stray off that given path? There's plenty of RPGs out there for you. There's practically none besides the TES series going the other way around or at least not as good as Bethesda does it. If that isn't your style or preference, ok. For a few however, that works great as it is and we refuse to follow yours or the Codex's lead - sry about that.
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I don't think RPG codex made a list of top mods.
If I'm seeing it right, it's a list of top games. Not mods, not bugs, not sales and not DLC.
Of course, if there was a list of top mods, top bugs, top sales and top DLC, Skyrim would be in it. Maybe codex makes such list(s) in the future?
OMG, is this true? I'm actually defending Codex!!!
Geez…
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@Siannah
the reviews will come from various sources, the Codex, many different CRPG sites, famous developers and writers,…
We even asked Matt Barton for help - but he said it will be in conflict with writing his own books.
Why don't you write a short Skyrim-review for felipepepe? -> Like I said all Elder Scrolls games will have a place in the book.
We want a fair book, we want to celebrate CRPGs old and new; but strength and weaknesses have to be addressed, too.
PS:
There is a Gothic 3 CRPG-Meter somewhere…
the reviews will come from various sources, the Codex, many different CRPG sites, famous developers and writers,…
We even asked Matt Barton for help - but he said it will be in conflict with writing his own books.
Why don't you write a short Skyrim-review for felipepepe? -> Like I said all Elder Scrolls games will have a place in the book.
We want a fair book, we want to celebrate CRPGs old and new; but strength and weaknesses have to be addressed, too.
PS:
There is a Gothic 3 CRPG-Meter somewhere…
Then the list is not so bad at all… ?
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I'm fully aware that it isn't about mods at all. HiddenX used the quoted part as an explanation about why Arcanum is on the list and Skyrim isn't. And I'm pretty damn sure the amount of loyal supporters of Skyrim, isn't below the amount of loyal supporters of Arcanum - at least not outside of the Codex.
And yes, I love Arcanum.
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felipepepe
Codex Refugee
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Finally managed to close a decent list and make a thread: http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24306
I'll see you on the other side.
I'll see you on the other side.
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S
sakichop
Guest
I don't think you should look at skyrim and not consider mods. Bethesda embraced mods and the modding community.
To me skyrim is a technical marvel, say what you want about bugs and what not but the fact is I can install skyrim and 100 mods made by several different people and have it run rock solid. If that's not impressive I don't know what is.
Arcanum was buggy with terrible gameplay and it's inclusion on the list shows the bias towards old games. I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised though. The codex and the watch have always been heavily slanted towards old games.
To me skyrim is a technical marvel, say what you want about bugs and what not but the fact is I can install skyrim and 100 mods made by several different people and have it run rock solid. If that's not impressive I don't know what is.
Arcanum was buggy with terrible gameplay and it's inclusion on the list shows the bias towards old games. I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised though. The codex and the watch have always been heavily slanted towards old games.
I never claimed that it's bad, not once. Lack of objectivity and fair mindedness from anything coming from the Codex which includes it's userbase? Anytime.
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A completely objective book sounds like an encyclopedia. Which sounds pretty boring to me.
I would argue that objectivity is not desirable or automatically good when it comes to reviews or recommendations.
If a person likes the things Arcanum did well, Skyrim has nothing to offer that person. They're totally different games.
So yes the Codex has a bias towards Arcanum, if by "bias" you mean "preference". It's not because of the year the game came out. It's because of the things Arcanum does well.
Also, 2 of the top 15 games came out in the last 4 years. Is preferring New Vegas to Fallout 3 a bias towards old games?
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D
DArtagnan
Guest
You mean, except if people like more than one kind of game?
Such people exist.
Besides, I enjoyed sneaking and stealing in both games, to mention one thing they share.
The bias isn't about preferring Arcanum - it's about ignoring its flaws because you're emotionally attached to it - and focusing on the flaws of Skyrim, because you're emotionally positioned against Bethesda.
There's nothing wrong with an emotional attachment. But it's key to recognise what it is - and not to pretend it's something else, like a remotely objective position.
Not necessarily.
However, placing Arcanum where you did - and including Wizards and Warriors (every real RPG fan knows in his heart that game was completely and utterly broken) whilst omitting FO3 and Skyrim is pretty obvious bias.
Unless you're in denial, that is.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
Really, for someone who always preaches subjectivity and then on the same site makes absolute statements like this, makes rationale folk tend to discount and skim his long posts. Too bad, as sometimes there is useful info in there. You just need to know when to apply the the BS filter, and skim...
Or maybe some people simply like Arcanum for the well-written lore, great soundtrack, and unique setting. Just a thought…
... and by the Codex and about 99% of it's userbase, I'm not because I enjoyed Skyrim, F3 and Oblivion. So.... welcome to the "real" side.
As for Wizards & Warriors: DArtagnan is right though. I actually enjoyed D.W. Bradleys second last work and played through it more than once, but the game is broken in more ways than I can count. The only one I mention is, how character storing / the inn works. Anything even remotely close to this system in a Bethesda game, would get quartered, stoned and shred to pieces within an instant on the Codex.
All fair and square, given the background of the Codex users view on recent (past Morrowind) Bethesda titles. But if you take how much they're willing to see past flaws in other titles, you wonder where they'd have to put said titles if they applied the same standard - luckily we know, they don't. And we didn't expected anything else.
That's the Codex for me in a nutshell. Only difference is, that I quickly found the skimming too much work for too little gain, at least for everything past the frontpage articles.
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I love Wizards & Warriors for the dungeons in this game alone, simply great; character advancement and combat is good, too. Rival Wizardry 8 is more polished and Wizards & Warriors has some more bugs, that's all. I don't rate a game for its bugs, gfx and sound - I rate it for interesting gameplay elements.