The Wall Street Occupation

Wall Street got degraded by Fitch thanks to this ruckus about the American unemployement.

blatantninja said:

I wouldn't think so, we're wired to think either as men or women.

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And as a coincidence hermaphrodites just happens to think of themselves as the same gender as their parents? Wouldn't you say that's an indication that at least part of it is socially constructed?

blatantninja said:

Most just the way our brains think. Instincts, chemistry, etc. tend to lend men to think and behave, at a general level, in different ways than women on the whole across cultures.

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Do they? What would these "patterns" be, and how much impact should they really have considering what I mentioned above regarding variation within vs between the genders? If we present a brain specialist with a random brain, will he be able to tell if the brain is male or female?

blatantninja said:

Because eye color doesn't effect how my brain works.

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That indicates that a sex change changes the way your brain works. Do you have any evidence supporting that it does?

blatantninja said:

I disagree with that wholeheartedly. Sure, some people are like that, but I have been managed by both men and women and I have managed both men and women, and haven't seen that at all.

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Is that because it doesn't happen or because the current order has blinded you to these kinds of things? Well, we can't say for certain, of course, and I'm hesitant to push the latter point since you flat out can't defend yourself from it. However, ponder this:

Quite a bit of research has been done on the division of domestic work between men and women in relationships (being a classically unequal field and all). And when the two spouses are asked about how the work burden is shared (who does most of the work) the result nowadays tends to be around 50-50: the spouses thinks the workload is shared evently. When you check out how much each spouse does, however, the studies tend to find that the woman still does most of the work. So, the spouses thinks the burden is shared equally when in reality it's not.

That's the problem with judging how fair you are in your dealings with pepole. You might not think you treat women worse than men in certain circumstances (and vice versa). The thing is - most pepole think that, including pepole who obviously do. So, how is it? Are you one of the precious few who really don't do it or one of the many who do it unconciously? Which sounds the most likely?

blatantninja said:

My solution is pretty simple, when you see someone being treating differently because of their sex/race/etc., stand up and say something.

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Pepole are already trying to do that - it's success has been fairly limited. That we tend to miss most of this treatment since we see this kind of treatment as natural is probably part of the reason why.

blatantninja said:

That's contradicts what they said in the article on the 'progressive stack'. It was specifically because of the 'historic' advantages we white men have enjoyed.

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It was about "encouraging white men to acknowledge the privilege they have lived in their entire lives and to step back from continually speaking". In other words, the point isn't to punish men, it's to get them to realize they're unconciously taking more space than they'd be entitled to in a fair society and thus get them to stop doing so.

blatantninja said:

Even so, just because a black woman feels like she has been disadvantaged in her life, for instance, doesn't not give her any right to try to disadvantage me.

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To go back up to my domestic work example, the problem isn't that the woman feels like the does most of the housework (not only because she doesn't even feel like she does), the problem is that she does, in fact, do most of the housework. The problem is that with no framework in place to prevent it the black woman will, in fact, be at a disadvantage due to social structures. Men will, without knowing it, take more space than they're entitled to and we all will, without knowing it, allow it. That's the problem they're trying to deal with.

It's not ideal to have rules that ensures women have the upper hand to prevent men from having it. The best would be some kind of structure that ensures equality, however that structure would work. But if that's not possible (and since your option seems to be "do nothing besides what we always do" there doesn't seem to be one) then this is the better option. Because letting women have the upper hand for a change is at least a little more equal than letting the men have it all the time. Besides, it might help to make some men aware of their privilieged situation, which over time will open up for a situation where "do nothing" is actually equal.

Übereil

blatantninja said:

I wouldn't think so, we're wired to think either as men or women. Certainly not everyone, but the majority of people.

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Not really no. Statistically there's are greater differences in the brains structure and computation of information between left-handed and right-handed than between gender.

When speaking about fundamental differences in peoples "wiring", there are five well-supported dimensional opposites when it comes to personality, each associated to a group of subtraits. That means that if you are close to a fringe in any of these traits, chances are that you have most of the subtraits associated with that fringe.

The five opposites are:
Openness to new experiences vs closeness to new experience
Conscientousness vs "sloppiness"
Extraversion vs Intraversion
Agreeableness vs Antagonism
Neuroticism vs worilessness

The important part here is that there's no association between any of these traits and gender. Each gender cover variants of all of these.

Oh, and a quick side note:

Jon Stewart's take on the situation. News seem to be covering it now.

To that it seems to be spreading. Even the local newspaper had an article on it today, and it mentioned that (among other places) there will be a similiar demonstration in Stockholm.

Übereil, maybe those protesters will have a better idea what to do about stuff

Getting back to the protests for a moment:

There is a potentially dangerous situation brewing here. There is no doubt that more and more folks are feeling disenfranchised from the economic system and that that their personal futures are in doubt at best, hopeless at worst. Not having a job is bad enough, but when even having a job fails to pay the bills, people are going to take it to the streets.

There are plenty of viable arguments to explain the destruction of the American middle Class, from Globalization to fundamental shifts involving the move from a manufacturing economy to that of a service economy. However, rational arguments mean nothing to someone who has been unemployed for over a year, or who was forced to take a job that won't pay his mortgage, or someone who fears layoff with no hope of further meaningful employment.

These protests reflect the dissatisfaction of the lower classes with the way wealth is distributed in our economy, and the disparity of wealth amongst the various classes. Bank bailouts, seemingly pornographic CEO pay packages, and political vitriol from various pundits pours gasoline onto the embers.

The very fact that there is no leadership or unified messages is dangerous in itself, in the same way that political candidates generally fail to be specific, allowing the electorate to make assumptions on the candidates policies.

We haven't reached critical mass yet, but if we can't find a way to more evenly spread the wealth, we could end up with a revolt from below. The big problem, then, is how to maintain a Capitalist system, and still endeavor to spread the wealth more evenly amongst the workers.

there is an argument that the politico-economic systems cycles every 50 years or so, as power (and blame) shifts between Business (collectively) and Government, as fundamental shifts of power between the two take a great deal of time to manifest systemic weaknesses. We are at the end of the Reagen cycle of empowering Business, and we will eventually swing too far back towards empowering Government. The key then, is to do this before we greatly damage ourselves.

Jhari said:

snip

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I don't think that the lower classes are up to this because there is no middle class any more.

This situation is dangerous for who ? when you have nothing to lose you have nothing to fear .

How about a word from our sponsors?

dteowner said:

How about a word from our sponsors?

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Biological soup.

Sad stories, meaningless lives. A woman who celebrate creation yet have created nothing worth mentioning and a musician who had to give up being a musician and be proud of being "productive" with 3 times more work than necessary in todays wealth to reach up to an average living standard. This is what communism is all about, be indoctrinated to believe you are being a good person when all you do is work harder and harder for less and less while sacrificing all you can be in the process. Money can't fill an empty soul and being the perfect ant doesn't make your life meaningful.

Tragos said:

I don't think that the lower classes are up to this because there is no middle class any more.

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There is plenty of middle class. It's shrunk some for sure, but the middle class is still there.

JemyM said:

Biological soup.

Sad stories, meaningless lives. A woman who celebrate creation yet have created nothing worth mentioning and a musician who had to give up being a musician and work 3 times more than whats necessary in todays wealth.

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Have you seen any of the sob stories from "We are the 99%"? Spoiled clam chowder there. Understand the context before pontificating, perfesser.

JemyM said:

Biological soup.

Sad stories, meaningless lives. A woman who celebrate creation yet have created nothing worth mentioning and a musician who had to give up being a musician and work 3 times more than whats necessary in todays wealth.

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Meaningless lives? That's pretty judgmental.

A woman who started her own business is certainly worth mentioning (starting your own business is the SINGLEHANDEDLY responsible for most of the millionaires in the US). A guy that turned his passion into a vocation that he enjoys and is profitable? That's not just worth mentioning, that's a dream come true.

And who is working 3x more than whats necessary? 60 hrs a week is a bit long (I usually put in 50-55 myself), but at most its 1.5x times a standard work week.

JemyM said:

Not really no. Statistically there's are greater differences in the brains structure and computation of information between left-handed and right-handed than between gender.

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Brain structure and computation of information don't equate to personality necessarily. There are massive amounts of different between diesel and gasoline engines, or standard and rotary engines, yet they serve they produce functionally the same result..

blatantninja said:

Meaningless lives? That's pretty judgmental.

A woman who started her own business is certainly worth mentioning (starting your own business is the SINGLEHANDEDLY responsible for most of the millionaires in the US). A guy that turned his passion into a vocation that he enjoys and is profitable? That's not just worth mentioning, that's a dream come true.

And who is working 3x more than whats necessary? 60 hrs a week is a bit long (I usually put in 50-55 myself), but at most its 1.5x times a standard work week.

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To me "starting your own business" is pretty much like "starting your own church". In it's own it's nothing more than participating in the cultural system, it tells me very little about what someone did with their humanity.

Given the wealth of an average western civilization, the US in particular, we do not need more than 10-20 hours per week. It's like work is your life. Where do you have room for family, recreation, being human? Or perhaps you work so much that you do not really have time to ponder about the existential questions, where you are, who you are, what purpose you got, what fills your life with meaning, is your life meaningful.

Remember, money and greed is everything to these guys...

Thrasher said:

Remember, money and greed is everything to these guys…

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Not neccessary greed, just basic survival in a culture who creates poverty in a wealthy region by promoting individual wealth as the meaning of life and a virtue out of wanting and chasing that life.

This can be compared with the ideal worker in the communist state who works their ass off for a cause that is not their own, or the pious who have given up their lives for Jesus following the virtue of faith, much to their leaders benefit.

This can be compared to the games in hegemonic male cultures that promotes virtues like who can down a bottle of liquor, take a naked walk in the snow or endure greater heat in the sauna etc.

There's nothing of real value in any of these virtues. They are done purely out of cultural pressure. Usually they make the individual sacrifice part of their humanity to be what they are asked to be rather than walk their own path.

Exactly what enlightened culture do you favor, perfesser? I see lots of complaints, but no answers. Bonus points if your proposal actually has viability in the real world.

dteowner said:

Exactly what enlightened culture do you favor, perfesser? I see lots of complaints, but no answers. Bonus points if your proposal actually has viability in the real world.

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Creating your own.

The word culture comes from "to grow". Culture grows from humanity. There's a difference between being a fertilizer to the bush and the flower itself. To create something new and something great, that's culture.

When asked "what do you make?", why do we mean "how much do you earn?"? What should be important is literaly, "what do you make" as in "what do you create".

To be able to create something new one must think and think different. But as anyone knows who ever created something, you cannot begin by saying "I shall create something", that will only be artifical and plastic.

When we are in the capacity to live our lives to the fullest, to make experiences and create from those experiences, that's when we can create something new and something that feels real. It's the human investment that makes something more than mere plastic.

Freedom is neccessary for culture to grow, but that includes both freedom to create and freedom to live. Often emptiness is neccessary for something to grow in it.

JemyM said:

To me "starting your own business" is pretty much like "starting your own church". In it's own it's nothing more than participating in the cultural system, it tells me very little about what someone did with their humanity.

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Well, I know a lot of clergy that have done very good things for humanity, so not sure what you mean by that.

Given the wealth of an average western civilization, the US in particular, we do not need more than 10-20 hours per week. It's like work is your life. Where do you have room for family, recreation, being human? Or perhaps you work so much that you do not really have time to ponder about the existential questions, where you are, who you are, what purpose you got, what fills your life with meaning, is your life meaningful.

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If we all worked 10-20 hrs per week, civilization as we know it would completely collapse.

As for time? Well, there are 168 hours in the week. If you are working 60 of them and presumably sleeping 7 a night that still leaves a solid 59 hours in the week for everything else.

I think about my family, my faith, what fills my life with meaning all the time, but working a full work week doesn't interfere with that. I still find time to do a lot of charity work (mainly scholarship fundraising) as well as spend quality time with friends and family.

blatantninja said:

Well, I know a lot of clergy that have done very good things for humanity, so not sure what you mean by that.

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The act of following ones cultures idea of "doing something" is not neccessary synonymous with "doing something". "Hey, I started my own business" doesn't mean you created something and "hey, I became a priest" doesn't mean you do good things for humanity. It's simply following expectations.

blatantninja said:

If we all worked 10-20 hrs per week, civilization as we know it would completely collapse.

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Civilization as you know it, probably. That doesn't make it a worthwhile one.

blatantninja said:

As for time? Well, there are 168 hours in the week. If you are working 60 of them and presumably sleeping 7 a night that still leaves a solid 59 hours in the week for everything else.

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No, for plenty of reasons. Just because you aren't sleeping doesn't mean your at your peak. For one thing we have a sleep cycle that strikes in the middle of the day which modern people tend to skip with coffee, but that doesn't make you awake and effective like 7 hours of sleep does. We have a limited amount of endurance that physical and mental exercise will drain so prolonged work demands rest even during the day. We have a limited capacity of cognitive functions, the amount we can handle in one sitting without beginning become unfocused and disattached. We are built for short moments of stressed awareness (that is good for us), not hours upon hours. Most of us have an hour of travel time to work, most of us spend at least an hour per day either cooking or eating and forget the part about "the female handle that. We also need to buy food, we need to take care of our childrens homework, we need to clean our homes.

If you work 60 hours you will not have 59 effective hours in the week.

blatantninja said:

I think about my family, my faith, what fills my life with meaning all the time, but working a full work week doesn't interfere with that. I still find time to do a lot of charity work (mainly scholarship fundraising) as well as spend quality time with friends and family.

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Good for you.

JemyM said:

Creating your own.

The word culture comes from "to grow". Culture grows from humanity. There's a difference between being a fertilizer to the bush and the flower itself. To create something new and something great, that's culture.

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Where do people who are happy in being the "fertilizer" fit in your world? Will we be the outcasts then?

I'm a teacher and have no desire to be a flower or to be unique in this world. I want to teach others so they have more opportunities to shine in this world, but according to you then I would be an outcast in your world order because I have no desire to think about how meaningful my life. I have thought about it and I am content in my role in this life. I go to my temple, go to work, play games and take my girlfriend out. I'm happy without thinking about all that crap you do. Actually thinking about that nonsense leads to discontent or a should have/could have scenario.

The only thing I want from this Wall Street Occupation is for America to wake up and stop letting people take what we already have. I had to leave the freaking country because of this greed. My mom and dad were part of the middle class that got swallowed up in corporate greed. They took my dad's job and then my mom's and couldn't see anything improving. So after my mom got situated and my dad died I said, "Goodbye suckers!!! I'm taking my ball and going to a new home!!!" I've never been happier since I left that godawful country.