Elder Scrolls Online

DArtagnan said:

They still haven't figured out a good way to solve this problem.

Personally, I think the way to evolve the genre is to actually ALLOW massive changes to the landscape, but also to implement a sufficiently sophisticated element of simulation and a dynamic AI - where NPCs/monsters would be able to rebuild or repopulate cities and other areas.

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EQNext *claims* they will allow you do do this. You can destroy building and stuff but the world will "heal" over time due to various dynamic AI behaviour. For example, if you set fire to forest, the tress will grow back up, or if you destroy an orc settlement, they might move some where else start to rebuild etc. Village might rebuild over time etc.

How this will works in practice is still remains to be seen given that EQNext is pretty much vaporware right now

The main problem is really the players, can their system keep up with player and keep everyone happy.

DArtagnan said:

Yeah, and also the fact that I know the game would fall apart if the landscape changed too significantly - as it would make questing and socialising with others impractical.

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To be fair, how many open-world offline RPGs (or just The Elder Scrolls games) have you played in which the world is significantly changed, apart from perhaps a main plot twist half-way through? I could be wrong, but does it even happen all that much?

Let's say you burned down a city or castle - and you quested in that same area with others. They might have chosen something different, and they might see the full castle there while you see only ruins. Also, if you eliminated enemies and they didn't - they might start fighting invisible enemies right in front of you, or things of that nature.

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Like when after I picked up a book and talked to a spirit that appeared, other people behind me would line up, pick up the book and talk to thin air. It is jarring and there I've seen even more pronounced examples of this.

But it does allow them to have an entire courtyard change with new NPC ghosts that you can talk to after a quest, the same courtyard that other players that haven't finished the quest run through.

An obvious tool here would be player-created quests, which is extremely rare in modern MMOs.

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Personally, I think the way to evolve the genre is to actually ALLOW massive changes to the landscape, but also to implement a sufficiently sophisticated element of simulation and a dynamic AI - where NPCs/monsters would be able to rebuild or repopulate cities and other areas.

An obvious tool here would be player-created quests, which is extremely rare in modern MMOs.

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I wonder how that feature fares these days in Neverwinter. I thought it was cute that you could have a theoretically unlimited collection of quests to play, but they were separate from the rest and mostly not that good.

That said, WoW has also done some very significant stuff with phasing technology. So, it's not entirely unique in this way.

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I've not played the last few WoW expansions, so how has that improved? All I can remember is some quests with a few different phases that changed the world somewhat, to the point that you could not even see other players that were not in your current phase.

Thaurin said:

I've not played the last few WoW expansions, so how has that improved? All I can remember is some quests with a few different phases that changed the world somewhat, to the point that you could not even see other players that were not in your current phase.

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I only played until Cataclysm but you had entire zones with a default phase when you arrived like a war between factions or huge enemy camps blocking your way and upon completing the main arc the war would be over or the camps would be bombed so you could go further.

About ESO, I just started the game (level5) but any player recommending some UI mods?

Luckra said:

About ESO, I just started the game (level5) but any player recommending some UI mods?

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This question is super well timed. I just found out this website that give a list of recommended add-ons.

Thaurin said:

To be fair, how many open-world offline RPGs (or just The Elder Scrolls games) have you played in which the world is significantly changed, apart from perhaps a main plot twist half-way through? I could be wrong, but does it even happen all that much?

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I don't know how many, but there are a few of them - including Dragon Age, in which an entire town is either saved or burned down.

But it's not so much that it happens a lot, it's that it CAN happen.

I wonder how that feature fares these days in Neverwinter. I thought it was cute that you could have a theoretically unlimited collection of quests to play, but they were separate from the rest and mostly not that good.

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NWN the MMO is a crappy game, so it's a bad example. I don't think having a severely limited toolset with extreme restrictions on what can happen with scaled loot and enemies is my idea of player-created quests.

The singleplayer NWN is a much better example of what players can create, if given enough power and freedom.

I've not played the last few WoW expansions, so how has that improved? All I can remember is some quests with a few different phases that changed the world somewhat, to the point that you could not even see other players that were not in your current phase.

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It's the same kind of thing, only evolved to include entire quest lines and regions.

Well if you disliked morrowind lore and liked this instead, that tells me right away I should pass on this. I think the lore has steadily gone downhill since morrowind into boring generic fantasy, and this reaffirms it.

It sounds good to me. I prefer going mostly solo in MMOs. Forced grouping all the time turns me off like in DDO. I may check it out come Winter when I have more time to play games.

ESO…boring generic fantasy, hmmm. I personally don't find ESO generic fantasy.

It's a lot more mature than what you usually find in MMOs: psychological stuff, betrayals, people doing terrible mistakes with their good intentions, creepy stuff, politics, etc. It also explore the lore and expand it.

Thrasher said:

Well if you disliked morrowind lore and liked this instead, that tells me right away I should pass on this. I think the lore has steadily gone downhill since morrowind into boring generic fantasy, and this reaffirms it.

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I like neither in terms of lore, really. It's well done, but not my style. I definitely think you should pass, though, as you sound like you already made up your mind before asking about it.

I feel I should add that lore, to me, is more about the history of the world than what's happening when I play. To me, quests and NPC dialogue is more about story than lore.

I really like the writing and the stories in ESO, but the background lore is just not my kind of thing. It has the feeling of something incredibly elaborate, but I know I'll never actually know what the hell it's about - as it would require me to read what seems like books and books of deliberately opaque stuff. I love that it's there if I want to read it, but I really do prefer a less verbose way to set things up - and I'd need a different presentation to engage myself in the world.

For instance, as ironic as it may seem - I actually really like the lore of Dragon Age and Mass Effect - and both games manage to seem rich and plausible without drowning the player in dry prose. The ironic part is that I don't particularly care for the dialogue and NPCs in those games.

I guess I'm just not that into reading history books when I'm playing a game.

You see I liked the ambiguity and mystery of all the historic lore presented in Morrowind books. Nothing significant was added in that regard afterwards in Oblivion or Skyrim. Instead the "present" lore seemed rather generic in both Oblivion and Skyrim. Dark elves culture in Morrowind was alien and strange. Imperial and Norse culture in Skyrim rather generic. Pretty obvious stuff.

My question is does ESO bring some unusual backstoy or unusual present day cultural lore that has some mystery and ambiguity and innovation, or is it more along the lines of Skyrim and Oblivion.

It's both.

Real helpful.

You asked, I answered. If you can't make a decision based on what you've heard here, tough. You don't seem genuinely interested at all, though.

You seem intent on disliking this based on obvious ignorance. Not a great motivator to persuade you to try and have fun.

I see, how typical. You project you own disingenuity onto me, when I am asking specific questions and you handwave.

Rather than communicate something useful, Dart devolves into insulting when he knows he's not able to provide useful input.

I'll bet you didn't even read all the Morrowind books since you don't like reading in RPGs. How can you compare the quality of the lore if you never even appreciated or read Morrowind lore to begin with because it wasn't all presented in pretty 3-d rendering?

DArtagnan said:

...but the background lore is just not my kind of thing. It has the feeling of something incredibly elaborate, but I know I'll never actually know what the hell it's about - as it would require me to read what seems like books and books of deliberately opaque stuff. I love that it's there if I want to read it, but I really do prefer a less verbose way to set things up - and I'd need a different presentation to engage myself in the world.

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Hahaha, that's exactly how I feel about the lore in Elder Scrolls. I get some part of it, but I'll be damned if I know what the hell it's all about. But it's cool that it's there.

I can't comment yet on the generic/super-unique discussion, because most of what I've seen so far isn't amazingly alien and first-time ever, revolutionary innovative. It doesn't have to be. However, I am getting slightly annoyed by small things. "My sword thirsts for blood!" Pffft. And boob plate. Whatever, it's a fantasy game.

As for the story side, I'm kind of impressed by the amount of different NPCs that you can find and talk with, fully voice-acted and changing their lines after certain events. It does that a bit better than Skyrim, in my opinion.

It's hard to say, as I didn't find the lore in Oblivion or Skyrim generic. The lore is the same style in all TES games, as far as I'm concerned. If I'm not mistaken, the foundation was established before Arena was released, and it was based on PnP sessions - not unlike the Krynn setting of AD&D.

However, the presentation of dialogue and story is very different in each of them, and I'd say it was pretty stilted in Oblivion, not unlike what Morrowind would have been with a similarly bad approach to voice acting.

Just imagine Sean Bean reading from those wiki entries

Skyrim has the superior presentation - and they managed to get the actors more engaged in what they were supposed to be doing at the time of delivery.

In terms of lore, they're all based on TES stuff written many years ago, which has a pretty established and deep history, AFAIK. Each game has clearly expanded upon the lore, but I think the style is similarly opaque across the decades.

ESO includes areas related to all three games mentioned here, so it stands to reason that it will resemble all of them on some level, as they based the game on the existing lore. They didn't "invent" it - so to speak. Even the main plot is directly tied into existing material. That's what I meant by it not disrespecting the source.

But I really can't be bothered to persuade people who're already intent on disliking something from a position of no knowledge about the game. That doesn't seem worth the effort.

If you need a reason not to play MMOs, there are much better options.

Both the lore and stories in ESO are of a very high quality considering the genre. Just my opinion, certainly, but I'm not what you would call ignorant of the topic at hand.

DArtagnan said:

Both the lore and stories in ESO are of a very high quality considering the genre. Just my opinion, certainly, but I'm not what you would call ignorant of the topic at hand.

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And there's so much of it. I can't run half a mile without bumping into some situation or character in need of assistance. Usually those quests turn out to be different than what you'd first expect. So they're interesting to do, even if I'm over-leveled for it. I think I'm getting hooked.

But yes, I'd agree that the lore is basically similar. That is, the stuff which is mostly conveyed in the books and the political, historical and environmental setting in which it all take place is similar to the other Elder Scrolls games. The stories, perhaps, slightly less so.

ESO do expand on quite a few things lorewise. All the lore we have on the Maormers come from the game, before that the race was just a mention in a book.

Although, if you play Ebonheart Pack, it's basically Morrowind Meet Skyrim with a bit of Black Marches thrown in. That's why it is the most popular alliance too.

The lore in Morrowind is deeper than Oblivion and Skyrim. I hunted down and read everything, found the shrines and absorbed it all. It's one of the best aspects of the game and fundamental if you want to get the most out of the main quest. Dart you usually make intelligent if annoying posts but on Morrowind you are clearly ignorant.