Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

dteowner said:

Fine, but that would mean that there would have been a time when he didn't want to believe in atoms. Pure, undeniable logic.

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You do come up with some utter drivel. Before we had sufficient evidence for atoms, I would just have said that I didn't know what the basis of matter was, whereas now there is good evidence that matter is atomic rather than continuous.

There are many things for which which we don't have answers, such as how life originated. If you ask a biologist that question they can give you a bunch of plausible guesses, but can't tell you which one is how life actually did originate with any degree of confidence.

dteowner said:

See, I agree that there's not a lot of logic to a resurrection story. I doubt a 2000-year-old oral tradition is going to serve as scientific proof of jack shit, but I also acknowledge that we don't have proof that the stuff is false. We merely have a lack of proof that it's true. Equating the two positions is a rather elementary logical fallacy and I'm sure we can find someone to supply the appropriate impressive latin.

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"If someone were to assert that there is an elephant on the quad, then the failure to observe an elephant there would be good reason to think that there is no elephant there." (Moreland & Craig).

If you can spot an elephant on the quad, then likely an omnipotent, omniscient god that controls every aspect of the universe would be a cinch. The fact we can't observe such a thing is most certainly an indication that it doesn't exist.

… And what Pladio said .

dteowner said:

Secondly, I come back to a point I tried to hit home earlier in this thread—logic is an inappropriate framework for a discussion of religion. If someone presented religion as a logically sound and empirically proven system, it would be appropriate to tear them a new asshole. I suppose there's a few wide-eyed zealots that might fit that category, but I don't see the vast majority of religious people fitting that description. Most religious folks will tell you that the foundation of religion is faith, not logic. Sure they'll try, with varying degrees of success, to justify that faith with a few patches of logic and historical evidence, but at the end of the day it's all about faith. It's a zombie story. Arguing about it is about the same as the people that argue about bad physics in Star Wars. Yep, they might be 100% correct, but that's simply not the point, and it imposes current day understanding on future events.

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Well this part I agree with. There's a lack of logic in faith-based beliefs. But that's the point. Some of us would rather believe more firmly in things that have evidence and are scrutable by logic. This is personal choice.

Personally, I am not without faith myself. But I don't try to convince others of something I only have faith in.

However, it's perfectly reasonable to try to convince others of things are demonstrable by logic and reason, like science.

Thrasher said:

Well this part I agree with. There's a lack of logic in faith-based beliefs. But that's the point. Some of us would rather believe more firmly in things that have evidence and are scrutable by logic. This is personal choice.

Personally, I am not without faith myself. But I don't try to convince others of something I only have faith in.

However, it's perfectly reasonable to try to convince others of things are demonstrable by logic and reason, like science.

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I don't feel that I have a "personal choice" in what I believe. In fact I'd like to believe that I'm going to some la la land in the sky when I die (with some serious provisos about the kind of god that would be up there), or at least I'd like to believe it *if it were to be true*.

The problem is that nothing we've come to understand about how the world works, through science (and just being alive in it), points to this particular outcome.

It seems to me, also, that there is something a little undignified about not facing up to reality; a bit like living the whole of one's life on some kind of mind altering drug in order to avoid the pain of reality. And the consequences of other people's irrational beliefs, when forced on everyone else, can be pretty dire.

Thrasher said:

Well this part I agree with. There's a lack of logic in faith-based beliefs. But that's the point. Some of us would rather believe more firmly in things that have evidence and are scrutable by logic. This is personal choice.

However, it's perfectly reasonable to try to convince others of things are demonstrable by logic and reason, like science.

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Basically, you cant developp faith in logical patterns.
Another undue reduction of the meaning of faith to apply it only to ungrounded in reality beliefs systems.

There is certainly no lack of logic in any faith based beliefs that relate to logical systems.

dteowner said:

You really want to demand logic from a resurrection story?

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Why should there be no expectation of logic from a ressurection story? Logics are a human invention to comprehend reality. From that point, the lack of expectation of logics from a resurrection story must be established. This point of view cant hang in the air as it was obvious.

Roq said:

I don't feel that I have a "personal choice" in what I believe. In fact I'd like to believe that I'm going to some la la land in the sky when I die (with some serious provisos about the kind of god that would be up there), or at least I'd like to believe it *if it were to be true*.

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And I agree with that. Nobody (IMO) can truly "make" themselves believe or not believe. There is some tentative research which points this way already but I think that believer/non believer question is nature and not nurture based.
So reaching any sort of agreement between those two sides is very difficult (if not impossible) because our brains are wired in a different way.

zahratustra said:

And I agree with that. Nobody (IMO) can truly "make" themselves believe or not believe. There is some tentative research which points this way already but I think that believer/non believer question is nature and not nurture based.
So reaching any sort of agreement between those two sides is very difficult (if not impossible) because our brains are wired in a different way.

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"Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man" (Allegedly an early Jesuit saying):

Dawkins speculates in "The God Delusion" that young children may have been imbued by evolution with an inherent tendency to uncritically believe their parents (or those in authority over them), especially when spoken to in a serious authoritative way. For the most part that would likely be beneficial ("Don't go near the river" - cos you might fall in or get eaten by a crocodile), but it would also encourage the propagation and retention of irrational beliefs, such as religions.

It's certainly very noticeable that many children are unable to discard even the craziest, most naive beliefs of their parents, even after being given an education their parents lacked. And it's well known (particularly amongst Catholics) that many people who do manage to escape their childhood indoctrination often return to it later in life when in emotional need.

But, if that was true, over the time the overall numbers of those who consider themselves as religious would be, more or less, the same. In fact those numbers are falling steadily. Notice that I'm talking about "a true belief" and not "religion as a social activity".

Roq said:

"Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man" (Allegedly an early Jesuit saying):

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'Given them the child until 7 ... and I will show you someone in need of a lifetime of intense therapy'.

Sorry ... bad Catholic priest joke

zahratustra said:

And I agree with that. Nobody (IMO) can truly "make" themselves believe or not believe.

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There's also lots of evidence that people can made to believe things through brainwashing. And we've seen people who brainwash themselves, directed by choice, when triggered by an extreme emotional event.

zahratustra said:

But, if that was true, over the time the overall numbers of those who consider themselves as religious would be, more or less, the same. In fact those numbers are falling steadily. Notice that I'm talking about "a true belief" and not "religion as a social activity".

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They would simply have shifted their capacity to some other domains of beliefs.

That's actually a very good point! BUT I went through whole rigmarole of being a Roman Catholic (baptism, fist communion etc.) but I have never "uncritically believed" any of that. And, since I'm nobody special, I believe that Dawkins over-speculates.

zahratustra said:

That's actually a very good point! BUT I went through whole rigmarole of being a Roman Catholic (baptism, fist communion etc.) but I have never "uncritically believed" any of that. And, since I'm nobody special, I believe that Dawkins over-speculates.

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We are all different, different genes, different expression of those genes in the environment we are brought up in. Some people don't contract measles, others don't contract religion, at least not in the same extreme way that takes over our entire ability to reason rationally. If we were all the same in that respect, we'd all be crashing into tall buildings in order to claim our virgins in paradise.

Dawkins isn't claiming some uniform way that everyone must behave according to the dictat of some unvarying genetic destiny that applies to everyone equally - he's just teasing out some of the tendencies and directions that evolution may be pointing us in.

Thrasher said:

Well this part I agree with. There's a lack of logic in faith-based beliefs. But that's the point. Some of us would rather believe more firmly in things that have evidence and are scrutable by logic. This is personal choice.

Personally, I am not without faith myself. But I don't try to convince others of something I only have faith in.

However, it's perfectly reasonable to try to convince others of things are demonstrable by logic and reason, like science.

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In my Life, I came to belive in God because of logic reason and science.
If I look around myself, I see lots of proof for a much younger world than
the ev.theory can handle. Nature itself proves Dawkins to be wrong.
Nothing yet has proved my Bible wrong. I promise you I have tested it daily.
I have never been a seeker, I have never searched for help or comfort.
I'm not that kind of man. I love facts.
I have becom a better person both proffessionaly and privat, thebezzerwizzer
is gone Today I listen to people

I guess your idea of proof and evidence and mine differ.

Don't be to sure, try me ?

You've given no reason to think otherwise.

I think I need a question to be able to answer you.
What kind of reason or facts do you regard as heavy?
I don't want to go on and on on things that you've heard already.
I could tell you anything of my own experience.
What would you like?

Why don't you offer something in your experience that provides proof of your religious beliefs?

Ok, for me it started like this:
Once, as I was on tour with my band, a girl from my past has called the other guitarplayer to try to reach me, she did we met and so…
I found myself on the countryside married with a pastors daghter, her mom was a pastorsdaughter aswell, no end to it.
At first I was a bit forgivingly to my wife bout her belives. (I'm not shure I put that right,I hope you understand?)
Naturally there was much christian information both to read, hear and watch around the house.
After sometime I was a bit pissed of with a creationist from fla. He was kind of arogant and folish I thought.
So, I spent quiet some time tryin to prove him wrong…
After two years I gave up. It didn't matter how much I disliked him. I couldn't prove him wrong.
During this two years I'd been reading the Bible alot cause he referd to the scriptures all the time.
There are several scientific statements in there that is absolutely correct
the earth is round, Thermodynamics, and so on.
Most of all there is no scientific statement in the Bible thats incorrect!!
By that I mean scientific statement. The wonders thats described you must use your own free will to accept or not.
In the kooran and other religios scripts there are lots of inaccurate statements
like where the sun sets.
filosofical maybe but thats not my cup of tea. I like facts.
Both in the old testament and in the gospels there are tons of historical facts that
is proven to be accurate by sience bit by bit.
Archeologists do find more and more of the citys and places described in the bible.
Do you know that the bible consists of 66 different books written down by 44 authors in a timespan of 2000years and still they all relate to eachother in ways thats are unbelivable.
Its just as hard to create these books seperatly over this timespan with so many writers in so many places that interact so precisly as it is to create the dna,rna system.
So whats your guess? chans?
I chose God. Thats easy for me to say, cause I have experienced this through.
I am baptised, I belive in Jesus christ, I'm saved, I know my God and I also know my enemy. I know what the world is coming to. Our time is described and prophesised in the bible. I will be here as long as God wants me to, I lay my life in his hands.

It was exciting this thing, living in two worlds, Playin in the band, going to different churches and meetings with my wife, who is a nightclubsinger. She was soon to join the band and I was soon to join God, I just didn't know it.
As I kept on traveling with the band I spent alot of time with my wife meeting all kinds of christian people in all kinds of places all over the country.
I've met a woman whos been healed from lungcancer. I've heard about her before, not knowing who she was, I was amazed. She actually didn't have a clue.
One of her daughters drove away with her to a christian meeting where they prayed for her.It was a desperate action from her daughter who was sure her mother would die. The next day she went to the hospital for surgery. They did the preop x-rays of her lungs and all cancer was gone… not even a scar to find.
Seven different doctors looked at the plates,comparing them to the earlier plates, totaly confused.

I asked her if she realised at all how big this is, and she said , laughing
- yeah its big! I even stopped smoking! I'm not swearing either.
I asked her about her belifes and she said: -well, I guess I belive in God and I belive in Jesus but I don't know much of this cause I don't go to church.
Another time we were at a train station and one of our christian friends asked a girl
on a bench where she was sittin with some friends of hers, if she was in pain.
The girl said yes, -I nearly always have headache cause I've got legs of different length and that makes tention to my back and neck.
Ok, said the woman -may I pray for you? Yes says the girl.
-Ok, I pray that the father our god and creator heal you from this pain…
While she was praying we were about ten people in a trainstation, the girls three friends, the four of us and three or four bypassers stopping to watch, looking at this girls leg groving in front of our eyes.
The girl was crazy happy afterwards, runnin round the bench. Her friends was kind of in a schock. It all happened so fast. I wasn't ready myself, I guess.

Well, facts. I do not know what you would be able take in
Ever thought about the flood? Do you see the evidence in nature for this worldwide catastrophy? Do you know about clams? Do you know that when they die they open up. Do you know there are thousands of clams in closed position on our highest mountains?
Do you know about fossils? Do you know that there would not be any fossils if there have not been for a worldwide catastrophy like the flood of Noah.
Do you know there are more than 280 floodlegends around the world that matches
the story of Noah
Do you know about the layers that evelutionists claims represent different ages millions of years from eachother? Do you know there are petrified trees goin through all these layers? The trees are going through the layers in total disorder
somtimes upsidedown.

As a musician my economy always been a rollercoaster, as I started to give away
money and things in the name of God, I all the time was blessed with more.
Every month I didn't give, I was struck poor, the car brook down, or something.
Every month I gave, my money, gas and food always was there for me.
Why do I say this? cause in the bible it says: Try me, fill my warehouse and
yours will be blessed,
I did, the bible was right
So now you think, so thats what its about, squeesin money to the church.
No, not just for churches or congregations, I've givin most to people who have not asked for it, not always money. It can be a guitar or a bible or a car or your time to sombody who needs it.
Do you know sometimes I loose something and I search for hours until I finnaly
pray to God to find it, and then, I always do!
When should I ever learn to sit down and pray first?

As I wrote before this Trasher, give me a question instead, otherwise it will turn out like this

Remember, by human thoughts, they who wrote the books that today is part of the bible never thought or knew that what they wrote would connect with other books to be called the Bible.
Although they all work toghether as a whole.
And if someone tells you they contradict, they better read more carfully.
Oops, its four in the morning here I'm going to see my daughter three hours drive from here so I'm done here.