Dragon Age 2 - News Round Up # 2

skavenhorde said:

Looking forward to it. More power to ya for preordering this …….I want to say "game", but I'm not really sure anymore.

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Comments like this bring this site closer and closer to Rpgcodex....is this where we are heading?

So now comments like "I'm looking forward to it" or making fun of the game because of the ridiculous PR is now going too far? If that is your vision of RPGCodex then I've been a codexer since I first started gaming.

skavenhorde said:

So now comments like "I'm looking forward to it" or making fun of the game because of the ridiculous PR is now going too far? If that is your vision of RPGCodex then I've been a codexer since I first started gaming.

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You have been a little over the top... actually a lot of people are about Dragon Age 2.

A lot of people are pissed off because we actually liked Dragon Age: Origins. I can't speak for everyone who is mad, but as for me I'm pissed off because Bioware has basically said "Bugger off!" to the hardcore crowd.

It's a lot of little things that have added up over time to give me a nice seething anger where this game is concerned. Like all the attention paid to the console versions of this game to Bioware getting rid of the different races you could be.

I went out of my way to defend Dragon Age: Origins last time even with their lame PR campaign. They at least attempted to acknowledge their hardcore fans last time. Not this time though. Nope, we are the redheaded stepchild this time around.

The choice of races and the origins really set DA:O apart (in this day and age), IMHO - seeing that go is a very sad development. The other changes appear more cosmetic and none of them are a killer individually, but nevertheless, none of them go in the direction I would have voterd for. So yeah, until I hear different from folks and reviews DA2 will be bargain bin (steam sale) material. Plenty of other games to play anyway.

skavenhorde said:

A lot of people are pissed off because we actually liked Dragon Age: Origins. I can't speak for everyone who is mad, but as for me I'm pissed off because Bioware has basically said "Bugger off!" to the hardcore crowd.

It's a lot of little things that have added up over time to give me a nice seething anger where this game is concerned. Like all the attention paid to the console versions of this game to Bioware getting rid of the different races you could be.

I went out of my way to defend Dragon Age: Origins last time even with their lame PR campaign. They at least attempted to acknowledge their hardcore fans last time. Not this time though. Nope, we are the redheaded stepchild this time around.

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I'm pretty sure no one in bioware used the words bugger off, they are canadian...we don't say that!

I've made my point of view clear on this: I feel the BioWare bashing has gone way too far the last six months or so - every single thread related to any of their games turns into a Codex thread. They've made three games with a "hardcore RPG" approach: BG1, BG2 and Dragon Age. They've made four games with the streamlined approach: Jade Empire, KotOR, ME1 and ME2. NWN is somewhere inbetween.

It's not a matter of "selling out" or "becoming more mainstream" or "telling the hardcore to bugger off" - it's simply what they do and have been doing for a long time. If Dragon Age 2 turns out more streamlined than Jade Empire, I will be happy to admit that BioWare is continuing a trend of streamlining, but as long as that's not the case - they're simply doing what they've been doing since 2005.

Bottom line: If you don't like the 2005 and beyond BioWare style, it shouldn't take you six years to realize it. Just stop following BioWare then, they're not suddenly going to surprise people and pull a new Baldur's Gate out of their hat.

Edit: Just to point something out. I do agree with the people that feel Dragon Age was a terrific RPG and that DA2 will most likely be a bummer in comparison. However, we pretty much all agreed on that a long time ago, and I simply feel that people should no longer act all hurt and surprised whenever they read news that confirm that DA2 is following BioWare's primary instead of secondary recipe.

Is the world still round? Yep, and it won't be flat tomorrow either. Just accept it and move on.

Maylander said:

I've made my point of view clear on this: I feel the BioWare bashing has gone way too far the last six months or so - every single thread related to any of their games turns into a Codex thread. They've made three games with a "hardcore RPG" approach: BG1, BG2 and Dragon Age. They've made four games with the streamlined approach: Jade Empire, KotOR, ME1 and ME2. NWN is somewhere inbetween.

It's not a matter of "selling out" or "becoming more mainstream" or "telling the hardcore to bugger off" - it's simply what they do and have been doing for a long time. If Dragon Age 2 turns out more streamlined than Jade Empire, I will be happy to admit that BioWare is continuing a trend of streamlining, but as long as that's not the case - they're simply doing what they've been doing since 2005.

Bottom line: If you don't like the 2005 and beyond BioWare style, it shouldn't take you six years to realize it. Just stop following BioWare then, they're not suddenly going to surprise people and pull a new Baldur's Gate out of their hat.

Edit: Just to point something out. I do agree with the people that feel Dragon Age was a terrific RPG and that DA2 will most likely be a bummer in comparison. However, we pretty much all agreed on that a long time ago, and I simply feel that people should no longer act all hurt and surprised whenever they read news that confirm that DA2 is following BioWare's primary instead of secondary recipe.

Is the world still round? Yep, and it won't be flat tomorrow either. Just accept it and move on.

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Why don't YOU just accept that people don't like what they're doing and feel like lamenting it whenever they're confronted with it - and then YOU can move on?

I think there is a point to Maylanders post.

Things change, but some act like they have been betrayed by a lover. Some perspective is always in good order.

It would be very sad if this site goes the way of RPG codex.

But the PR mayhem that EA brought with them is another matter...

C

DArtagnan said:

Why don't YOU just accept that people don't like what they're doing and feel like lamenting it whenever they're confronted with it - and then YOU can move on?

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I've tried. In fact, I've only brought this up a few times, usually when a discussion breaks out about this very topic. I generally don't mention it in the BioWare flame threads until someone brings up the fact that it now looks like it should've been over at the Codex.

Besides, I like expressing how slow and generally dimwited people are - it took them a whooping six years to catch on and now they're whining. It's like being hit by a car, forget about it and then get angry about it half a decade later - only to contact the guy and go "hey, you ran me over! I hate you!".

I don't mind you though, you've been expressing your point of view ever since Jade Empire. That's consistent.

Maylander said:

I've tried. In fact, I've only brought this up a few times, usually when a discussion breaks out about this very topic. I generally don't mention it in the BioWare flame threads until someone brings up the fact that it now looks like it should've been over at the Codex.

Besides, I like expressing how slow and generally dimwited people are - it took them a whooping six years to catch on and now they're whining. It's like being hit by a car, forget about it and then get angry about it half a decade later - only to contact the guy and go "hey, you ran me over! I hate you!".

I don't mind you though, you've been expressing your point of view ever since Jade Empire. That's consistent.

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Thanks

Hey, I understand what you're going through. I've felt the same way about certain games - like Hellgate, to name one.

People keep bitching about it, and yet I thought it was actually pretty great in several ways. At the same time, I can see where people are coming from with their grievances - so there's really not much I can do about it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people REALLY do have legitimate grievances with Bioware - but I also agree that there are people who bitch endlessly and irrationally about little or nothing.

I know I'm jaded and I know it might sound like I just "hate" Bioware, and I really don't.

They're just one prime example of what happens in this industry, because of what I think is a huge problem - which is the focus on money.

I'm so down about this problem in general, that I will always bitch about it - and probably for the rest of my life.

Bioware will not always be a target, but I think for the forseeable future, they'll be among the primary targets

I either love bioware or hate them its a weird relationship. As for the codex you find a few with good opinions but most are hilarious.

Excuse me while I cry in my corner because hellgate was mentioned. A good game but sadly killed by the publisher and developer.

Maylander said:

I've made my point of view clear on this: I feel the BioWare bashing has gone way too far the last six months or so - every single thread related to any of their games turns into a Codex thread.

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Oh c'mon, now you're grossly exaggerating. The comments here haven't been that much out of line. It's a sad state of affairs if one cannot express his/her opinions here about a game (not religion, not politics, etc.), unless it's expressed in overly cautious, politically über-correct, unpersonal and unemotinal, shiny happy people kind of way. We aren't that fragile or sensitive are we?

Maylander said:

They've made three games with a "hardcore RPG" approach: BG1, BG2 and Dragon Age. They've made four games with the streamlined approach: Jade Empire, KotOR, ME1 and ME2. NWN is somewhere inbetween.

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But that's just it! Look at your own list. DA is in the "hardcore RPG" approach camp (well, I wouldn't call it "hardcore", but let's not argue over semantics). Is it too much to expect its sequel to be in that same camp as well? Sequels usually continue in the same general vein as their predecessor, you know. Plus Bioware already have a streamlined, action RPG franchice going (Mass Effect), why drag DA into that too? DA:O wasn't a commercial flop or a critical failure for Bioware. Wasn't that enough of a message to them, that there might be a market for this kind of game? A game which continued the legacy of Baldur's Gate with its PC gaming sensibilities/heritage (let's not argue how well it did that now, however).

Most of us who are upset at Bioware about DA2 (well at least me), are upset because of them doing a sequel to a game, they themselves called the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, and turning it to an action/console RPG. It is about them doing a sequel to a game that at least leaned towards the older school, party-based RPGs, and then deliberately changing it to something which has, among other things, streamlined character creation and combat with an "awesome button" (which, judging from the demo clips I've seen, looks dreadful and boring — teleporting rogues, awesomely hack-hack-hacking at an enemy while awesomely standing still, enemies spawning in waves out of thin air, more hack-hack-hacking, ridiculous melee area attacks, even more ridiculous deaths in explosions of blood, mages machinegunning fireballs, etc. etc.).

I wouldn't have minded if Bioware had made an entirely separate game just like DA2, as a different franchise, but as a sequel to DA:O, I find it just as Skavenhorde, as saying "bugger off" to the ones expecting something which would have continued in the same general vein as its predecessor.

First DA didn't sell well then if they're making it animu.

Lurking Grue said:

Oh c'mon, now you're grossly exaggerating. The comments here haven't been that much out of line. It's a sad state of affairs if one cannot express his/her opinions here about a game (not religion, not politics, etc.), unless it's expressed in overly cautious, politically über-correct, unpersonal and unemotinal, shiny happy people kind of way. We aren't that fragile or sensitive are we?

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This thread is hardly the only, or worst, example. Something can only be stated a certain amount of time before it becomes extremely tedious. I'm not offended by any means, I'm bored. I expect the quality to be higher on the Watch than elsewhere. Every single BioWare thread (or Bethesda for that matter) turning into the exact same discussion is simply rediculous. It's why I like, but generally don't visit the "rant and rave about Oblivion thread" - it's a place where people can continue that age old discussion without spreading across a thousand threads.

Lurking Grue said:

But that's just it! Look at your own list. DA is in the "hardcore RPG" approach camp (well, I wouldn't call it "hardcore", but let's not argue over semantics). Is it too much to expect its sequel to be in that same camp as well? Sequels usually continue in the same general vein as their predecessor, you know. Plus Bioware already have a streamlined, action RPG franchice going (Mass Effect), why drag DA into that too? DA:O wasn't a commercial flop or a critical failure for Bioware. Wasn't that enough of a message to them, that there might be a market for this kind of game? A game which continued the legacy of Baldur's Gate with its PC gaming sensibilities/heritage (let's not argue how well it did that now, however).

Most of us who are upset at Bioware about DA2 (well at least me), are upset because of them doing a sequel to a game, they themselves called the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, and turning it to an action/console RPG. It is about them doing a sequel to a game that at least leaned towards the older school, party-based RPGs, and then deliberately changing it to something which has, among other things, streamlined character creation and combat with an "awesome button" (which, judging from the demo clips I've seen, looks dreadful and boring — teleporting rogues, awesomely hack-hack-hacking at an enemy while awesomely standing still, enemies spawning in waves out of thin air, more hack-hack-hacking, ridiculous melee area attacks, even more ridiculous deaths in explosions of blood, mages machinegunning fireballs, etc. etc.).

I wouldn't have minded if Bioware had made an entirely separate game just like DA2, as a different franchise, but as a sequel to DA:O, I find it just as Skavenhorde, as saying "bugger off" to the ones expecting something which would have continued in the same general vein as its predecessor.

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We know that. We've stated that a thousand times. We all know that better than the colour of the underwear we're currently wearing. I'd like the ability to fly by flapping my arms or do magic, but I have accepted the fact that I simply can't, and now I've moved on.

At some point restating the same point over and over becomes pointless. The world is round, not flat.

Just so you know: The world is still round. It's not flat.

PS. Did you know that the world is round?

PPS. WOW! I just realized the world is - wait for it - NOT flat? Can you believe that?

PPPS. I think I would've liked the world as a flat place. Why isn't it flat? I want it to be flat. Can we get a flat world please? No? Why not? Is someone making money off the fact that it's round or something?

Bottom line: I come to the Watch to discuss games. Not re-do the same discussion every day of the week. If someone actually brought a fresh opinion or perspective to the discussion it would be worthwhile, but right now I'm just reading the same opinions from the same people every day.

Edit:
Don't get me wrong. This is still the best place around for RPGs, and most discussions are very good. However, it used to be even better before the anti-BioWare brigade (and Bethesda to be honest) spread like wildfire.

guise, please talk about the article and not rage about company that craps out badly written, dumbed down vidya games.

keep the fanboyism and rage to PM plz.

DoctorNarrative said:

I guess I am not the same kind of player you are because I don't consider combat nuances like that to take a game from "I loved it" to "I hated it." Maybe that's me.

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Well, I've always found that combat is a large part of the point of RPGs and CRPGs. There are a few exceptions, but any game where you spend the bulk of your time killing things to progress strikes me as a game where combat is fairly important since that IS the gameplay. Either way, it's a matter of taste.

DoctorNarrative said:

Also I am pretty sure as an expansion that takes you to higher levels half the point was to give you awesomely powerful new high-level stuff.

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Yeah, it's less that it's powerful high level stuff and more that the powerful high level stuff isn't combined with interesting and powerful high level encounters to play with. What's the point of having a +50 sword of awesome and omega whirlwind attack when all you fight are peasants with pitchforks and torches?

I played DA:O and DA:A on nightmare. DA:O was interesting up until I knew the system's quirks well and could breeze through the encounters (and even then it was still kind of fun). DA:A didn't seem to even need me there, even on nightmare, without tweaking my party's tactics options. I found it to be boring.

Maylander said:

Edit:
Don't get me wrong. This is still the best place around for RPGs, and most discussions are very good. However, it used to be even better before the anti-BioWare brigade (and Bethesda to be honest) spread like wildfire.

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Inflammatory tirades aside, don't you think that Bioware has earned some of the negative feedback regarding their games as RPGs? Yes, they've been more or less consistently pursuing a cinematic experience since KotOR, but even so their games had fairly robust RPG underpinnings of some sort or another up until Mass Effect 2 imo.

I suspect that most of the concerns around Bioware and their games now are not so much about whether or not they suck as RPGs and more about making noise so that other RPG developers will understand that their fans aren't interested in losing solid RPG mechanics and (mechanical) character development in favour of linear progression, action sequences and cutscenes. There are a lot of games that cater to these latter interests only RPGs and some strategy games cater to the former. If Bioware would stop calling their games RPGs when they're not (Mass Effect 2) or stop stripping out mechanics when their systems were already "streamlined" in the original (Dragon Age 2) they'd probably draw less ire. Actually, even better: they could issue a press release stating that they haven't been interested in making _RPGs_ for some time and that their new games are going in a different direction so that people/media would stop holding them up as the pinnacle of RPG design even as they gut said RPG mechanics from their games.

I think that some of the reasons why this "bashing" evolves comes out from the bitterness that we - as a group of gamers - feel more and more overlooked as a target audience.

I guess that "we" might feel more and more like a niche that's being forgotten by the big companies - and that creates bitterness.

This is my theory.

@ Estel. Sorry about that Not to derail the the tread, but isn't it rather interesting that many times we don't know the gender of the other person(s) in the game forums. Glad Dhruin fixed it

More to the point of the discussion in this thread, I probably will buy the game when it gets a reduced price (like I did with me2 and da). Since I don't have that much money right know, this is also factor in making this decision. And I really am tired of this 'by the game at midnight when the moon is full and do two hoops backwards' and get one or two items that makes the game (slightly) easier.

Maylander said:

PS. Did you know that the world is round?

PPS. WOW! I just realized the world is - wait for it - NOT flat? Can you believe that?

PPPS. I think I would've liked the world as a flat place. Why isn't it flat? I want it to be flat. Can we get a flat world please? No? Why not? Is someone making money off the fact that it's round or something?

Bottom line: I come to the Watch to discuss games. Not re-do the same discussion every day of the week. If someone actually brought a fresh opinion or perspective to the discussion it would be worthwhile, but right now I'm just reading the same opinions from the same people every day.

Edit:
Don't get me wrong. This is still the best place around for RPGs, and most discussions are very good. However, it used to be even better before the anti-BioWare brigade (and Bethesda to be honest) spread like wildfire.

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Some people can just be annoying also like you. Everyone is entitled to there own views and opinions. You dont want to read it fine just skip the thread then. Dont be the one guy who has to complain about the haters. Its just as bad as the haters.