Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

Thrasher said:
Thanks Corwin. That's what we've been saying from the get go. "The" Bible is a mess due to the poor translations, among other things.

And, no I shouldn't have to understand some convoluted theory of creationist cosmology that was created just to explain the Bible with no basis in facts or scientific evidence. It's plain lunacy.
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? Then that particular contradiction doesnt exist then. It is only an issue because it has scientific implications.
 
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No, it's a contradiction in terms (poor language use) as well as contradictory to science. If a religion has to make up a cosmology to explain a contradiction in its text, then it's even worse, especially if it it contradicts with science. It's just fantasy, not fact.
 
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Thrasher said:
No, it's a contradiction in terms (poor language use) as well as contradictory to science. If a religion has to make up a cosmology to explain a contradiction in its text, then it's even worse, especially if it it contradicts with science. It's just fantasy, not fact.
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It isnt contradiction in terms. What if it isnt contradictory to science?
 
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The great thing about religion is that it doesn't require logic, physical constraints don't need to apply to physical actions, and anything uncomfortable can just be waved away in a fog of faith.

I say that we need look no further than the heated scholarly debates of the meanings of words and phrases from ancient transcriptions ... there are inherent lacks of clarity and precision, meaning that the MEANING is based on an interpretation of a 'majority' of scholars, or at least those with the most power.
 
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Thrasher said:
As usual you're not making any sense.
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I was saying it isnt a poor use of language about that sentence. And the second part was what if it viable with the data from science? What if the references in the bible are discovered to be true?



I say that we need look no further than the heated scholarly debates of the meanings of words and phrases from ancient transcriptions … there are inherent lacks of clarity and precision, meaning that the MEANING is based on an interpretation of a 'majority' of scholars, or at least those with the most power.
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Depends. Somethings are pretty clear if you study Ancient Hebrew/Greek. It isnt so much the interpretation of scholars rather the understanding of the language that is in question.
 
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Language MUST always be understood in the context of culture, even today!! The Yanks and the Brits (not to mention the Aussies) all claim to speak the same language, but many words have differing meanings depending in which country and to which group of people they are used!! :) Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said America and England were two countries divided by the same language?
 
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Corwin said:
Kiddies, this particular discussion is older than the internet, and generally a total waste of time since neither of you will be convinced by the other, especially since neither of you are Hebrew, or Greek scholars. Can I answer every supposed contradiction in the Bible? Yes, and have done so here on several occasions. However, sometimes my responses require an extensive knowledge of Jewish culture and customs as well as a basic understanding of Hebrew usage so that one can refer to original texts rather than translations. Since I have spent many years gaining that knowledge, unless you too are willing to put in that amount of effort, having a viable intellectual discussion is impossible; you just don't have the in depth background necessary. This is not meant as any sort of 'put down', rather to me it's just the same as my trying to have an intellectual discussion with a rocket scientist about his field of specialty. I'd be WAY out of my depth.
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So, the question of whether God dictated to man or not is so advanced, it's beyond your ability to explain to an average Joe like myself?

Ok, then.
 
DArtagnan said:
So, the question of whether God dictated to man or not is so advanced, it's beyond your ability to explain to an average Joe like myself?

Ok, then.
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Exactly ... I would explain it but you wouldn't understand, so just kindly accept that you are wrong about everything and the bible is infallible ...
 
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Wow.
I thought I was absent a significant amount of time but it looks like I didn't miss a beat.
 
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Yup, some people from both sides of the believer/non believer divide are still convinced that, if only they could find a right argument, they will convince the other side. They don't realize (or don't care) that it's a question of how one's brain is wired.
 
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zahratustra said:
Yup, some people from both sides of the believer/non believer divide are still convinced that, if only they could find a right argument, they will convince the other side. They don't realize (or don't care) that it's a question of how one's brain is wired.
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I am not trying to convince the other side rather i am trying to provide a reasonable defense of my faith.
 
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You don't have to defend your faith Damian just as I don't have to defend my lack of it :)
 
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As an agnostic, convincing people is pretty stupid when it comes to matters of faith. I'm just curious how people make sense of their beliefs - and that's why I ask.

I can be sceptical and I can poke a bit, just to see how much things hold together - but I would never expect or desire to convince anyone of anything.

I don't see the point.

I'm envious of certainty - whatever it's based on.
 
zahratustra said:
You don't have to defend your faith Damian just as I don't have to defend my lack of it :)
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I'm in two minds about this. I want to chill out out it but there is only so many times someone has to spew nonsense without someone objecting to it that it becomes fact.
 
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Damian said:
I'm in two minds about this. I want to chill out out it but there is only so many times someone has to spew nonsense without someone objecting to it that it becomes fact.
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Don't worry, I don't consider any of your nonsense factual ;)
 
Damian said:
I am not trying to convince the other side rather i am trying to provide a reasonable defense of my faith.
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Ah yes - The argument from sophisticated theology: All the contradictions, tall tales & primitive morality go away if you spend years poring over ancient hebrew texts, the genocides are all allegorical, 7 days isn't really 7 days etc. etc.

The contortions that people go through to make their religious books say what they personally want to believe are so far from what the texts actually say that it beggar's belief. You'd have a lot less of a problem if you claimed your god was the author of a telephone directory and you used that as your holy text.

That's hardly what one might call "reasonable", that term implies looking at evidence in a less subjective manner.
 
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