KoA: Reckoning - Optional Quest Icons

Dhruin

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Here's a nice example of a developer responding to fan feedback. Fantasm writes that the recent Reckoning news of quest icons over NPC heads caused a bit of an uproar with some fans (you may remember some discussion on our own boards). Lead Designer Ian 'Tiberius' Frazer eventually chimed in with this:
"That said, it's clear that this issue is important to some of our fans, so tomorrow I'll sit down with the UI team and get some estimates on the time it would take to make this a toggleable feature and the estimated level of risk (bug-wise) in making it a toggle.

I am by no means promising that we'll implement a toggle for quest markers (if it looks like it'll be a bad thing for the project, especially if it looks likely to introduce new bugs, then we certainly won't do it), but I wanted to at least let you know that we take fan concerns like this one quite seriously and we will spend the time to investigate our options.

Thanks for the feedback and your support."
True to his word, Ian followed the issue up and posted an update yesterday to say quest markers would remain on the map but in those in the actual gameworld will be fully toggleable:
"Ok, so I've met with the UI team and we've investigated our options. For a variety of reasons, toggling quest markers on the MAP is not something we'll be doing. But the quest markers in the world itself? Yes, I'm pleased to report that our Principal UI Designer is going to work a little magic and make them fully toggleable (on by default).

If you don't want to see floating !s, ?s, and arrows in Reckoning, you will not have to do so."
Thanks, Fantasm!
More information.
 
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While it's a good sign that they are genuinely responding to feedback, I can't help be curious about why removing the markers from the maps causes such issues. Oblivion had a mod that took them out and I never noticed it causing any problems.
 
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If you click on either of those links, you'll see that the Watch played a part in my argument when I started that thread. Hope nobody minds me forwarding the feedback here on to those forums!

Note that the first link doesn't have any dev input, but it was quite a discussion that eventually degenerated into a flamewar. The second link has both of Frazier's responses.

Maybe someday developers will get the clue that floating quest icons belong ONLY in mmo's...
 
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Hmm diablo used them:p

NOt a huge deal to me either way...makes it easy to find out who is offering quests in a large world though.
 
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I can't help but think, that 'in-game quest markers' was always a toggable feature. BHG/Studio 38 then purposely planted some vids showing the quest markers, fully knowing the uproar it would cause. Now they look, the saviors. It's the gaming equivalent of a 'false flag' op. What can I say? I'm cynical and see conspiracies everywhere :'(
 
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Forgive the wall of text; Fantasm's intelligent post on that forum was followed by some less than intelligent arguments, some of which I found really frustrating to hear people express.

To me, the most disheartening aspect of the argument captured in the forum responses linked to in the first link was this:

Having a giant yellow ! over someone's head is no different than playing an animation for the NPC to beckon you over because he has something to tell you.

I do hope that this mistaken belief is not shared by a significant number of future writers and game designers. This goes against one of the fundamental truths of good storytelling. This is that it is more engaging if you show something about a character rather than simply tell it.

The difference between these two things is huge - and to the point that it is crucial in conveying something in a narrative or game with any degree of persuasiveness and impact. The use of a bright yellow question mark as the primary indication of an NPC in need of help is even less effective than simply telling you they need assistance. In short fiction it would be like writing:

Sally: (>_<)

Even the way in which Oblivion (heavily criticized for the immersion-killing NPCs) handled this was far superior. In Oblivion and Morrowind other characters would often make statements regarding NPCs with quests to give suggesting they were distraught, this would be akin to writing:

His works made Sally extremely angry. She wanted to strangle him.

The more ideal way of conveying this would read more along the lines of:

As he spoke, Sally's normally cheerful smile vanished and her skin began to flush beet red. Muscles she had rarely been given such an occasion to use began to contort her face into something vicious and unfamiliar to those who knew her. Had this poor fool of a man not been so oblivious as he spoke to her he would have surely felt the cold chill of death creep up his spine as she focused her narrowed stare squarely upon his throat. Had he even casually glanced at her before he finished speaking, he would have noticed that with each syllable he uttered Sally's fists clenched tighter until finally her fingernails began to draw a generous stream of blood from her heavily calloused palms. It was clear that if some onlooker did not step in soon and save the man from himself, Sally would make sure these would be the last foolish words he ever spoke.

I don't pretend to be a good writer, but I think you get the idea. You can show and tell if you want (last sentence for example) but the important part is that important elements should be expressed more viscerally than can be done with simple statements. Having an NPC, who needs the player to recover a solid MacGuffinite family heirloom stolen by bandits, pacing back and forth in the local constabulary grumbling about how innefective the guard is would be far more ideal than having a question mark over their head. A merchant you are about to purchase something from might appologize pre-emptively and with exasperation (as though they've been asked for it by every one of their customers that day already) for being out of stock of a certain popular product serves as a much better hook than giant punctuation.

Being able to ask "what's the matter" in response to seeing that something IS the matter serves to communicate the emotional and personal significance of the quest that follows. Seeing distress or need and being able to chose to respond to that organically allows the player to feel that they are helping the NPC out because they saw their plight and felt they should do the hero thing. The MMO shorthand does not do this - it reduces the significance and meaningfulness of these interactions with an oppressive sameness.

The use of this sort of system is fine if one is not trying to create an immersive world where choice and NPC interactions are meant to be meaningful or emotionally powerful. The bulk of MMOs do not try to do this because any meaningful connection is often intended to be made with other players - and there is little to the illusion that your interaction with an NPC is unique. In a single player game however, the lack of competent expressive storytelling in this regard would make the world feel lonely and hollow - even more so than Oblivion often did.

I do hope that the quest icons in KoA are an artifact left over from early development when it wsa intended to be an MMO. If they have simply been used as a placeholder for more difficult yet more rewarding means of expressing the needs and desires of NPCs than being able to turn them off will do little to improve the experience. If, however, they have done what they should and made NPCs sufficiently engaging then being able to turn it off will be greatly desirable - lest the big yellow punctuation obfuscate all the good character design and behavior elements for those who want to appreciate it.
 
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This was never intended as a MMO....they are also thinking of making one, but this was always a single player game.
 
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This was never intended as a MMO….they are also thinking of making one, but this was always a single player game.

No.. jhwisner is correct. It originally started as an MMO very early in developement. They made the decision to go single-player after '38 Studios' purchased 'Big Huge Games'.
 
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No.. jhwisner is correct. It originally started as an MMO very early in developement. They made the decision to go single-player after '38 Studios' purchased 'Big Huge Games'.

No, this is also incorrect.

The MMO was already underway when they bought BHG. BHG had an open-world RPG under development, and they were acquired so that this single-player game could be created as an introductory IP to the world of Amalur, and placed in the existing Amalur history that RA Salvatore had already written. The SP game and MMO have always been separate projects.
 
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No, this is also incorrect.

The MMO was already underway when they bought BHG. BHG had an open-world RPG under development, and they were acquired so that this single-player game could be created as an introductory IP to the world of Amalur, and placed in the existing Amalur history that RA Salvatore had already written. The SP game and MMO have always been separate projects.

No… it isn't.

KoA was also originally intended to be an MMO.

From MMO to Reckoning

For a few years, 38 Studios progressed on their first game, an MMO codenamed Copernicus. Meanwhile in Timonium, Maryland, Big Huge Games was finding out some very bad news. It had been a little over a year since THQ acquired the games studio, and adverse economic conditions were causing plans to shut down Big Huge Games unless a buyer could be found quickly.

Schilling saw an opportunity and acquired Big Huge Games, bringing them under the 38 Studios banner. His accountants must have wept many tears.

"For three and a half years, we had the Amalur universe in 38 Studios," Schilling said. "The IP is being led by this team of very passionate people, we're making this MMO, we've got a roadmap – and in a 24 hour span, we add 90 employees who now all of a sudden are taking the baby being created in Boston. There's 90 people we don't know and we're handing off this multi-billion dollar, multi year project… to who?"

But perhaps it wasn't so crazy. As it turns out, Big Huge Games had already been laying the groundwork for their own single player RPG project under lead designer Ken Rolston, of Morrowind and Oblivion fame.

"They had been shopping this fantasy game for a long time," said Schilling. "From a tech perspective and a game design perspective, there was a solid foundation. But they were missing the story – the thing that makes a great RPG. We had that. It was a match made in heaven, because not long after the partnership, when Bob [Salvatore] and Ken [Rolston] and the creative team sat down together, there was a lot of magic going on."

KoA is that MMO that was previously underway, or at least that's the way they make it sound.
 
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No, development on Copernicus continued after BHG was acquired, and is still in development by 38 Studios as we speak.

What you just posted confirms everything I just said.

I'll see if I can hunt down some news on Copernicus...
 
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Feel free to post a link to something that makes it a little more clear. Otherwise, it seems obvious to me that KoA started out as an MMO.

*Edit* After reading that article again, I now have the impression that KoA was originally the combination of assets from 2 different projects. It seems they took the world and background lore from a 38 Studios MMO project and combined it with a single-player game that Big Huge Games had been working on prior to being purchased.

Here's the full article btw.
 
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Whether the WoW style question marks are signs of the MMO roots of some of those assets or merely its connection to that MMO in terms of design planning and philosophy is probably irrelevant. They are mostly used in MMOs and multi-player focused action RPGs for expedience and generally not used in single player RPGs because they interfere with an engaging narrative. They don't automatically spell cold emotionless NPCs - and I agreed with your initial post; I took issue with some of the people who flamed you in response though. The suggestion that they could provide the same exact thing as meaningful character interaction was what I took issue with - and that was not said by you.

Whatever their origins are here they are either something that should be optional and are merely an extra bell or whistle tying it into the MMO they plan on also releasing; or if they are being used in place of more illustrative NPC behavior and dialog then they are a crutch substituting for better alternatives. At this point it doesn't have to be the worst of the two so don't think I'm damning it for glowing punctuation just yet. I was being optimistic when I suggested they might just be elements brought in from the MMO project - which would mean the design philosophy they operated under would not have used them as placeholders for expressive NPC behavior. If that were the case then your suggestion would be all they would need to do to satisfy those of us who would find the giant punctuation extraneous and distracting.

No… it isn't.

KoA was also originally intended to be an MMO.



KoA is that MMO that was previously underway, or at least that's the way they make it sound.

Yeah I think the confusion comes from the fact that one of the studios was already developing an MMO and another was developing a single player RPG. Back when Big huge Games was under THQ, 38 was already working on its upcoming MMO. Curt Schilling redirected the resources and progress from his studios existing MMO towards the single player project Big Huge Games had in development.

The SP game and MMO have always been separate projects.

I think we can agree that they stopped being wholly separate after BHG was acquired by 38. How much of the design beyond story, setting, and characters (which we can acknowledge came in large part from the MMO project) was influenced by or incorporated from Copernicus (MMO) is hard to say. I would be curious as to whether elements like the questclimation marks were planned before that though. Perhaps the original was planned to be more of a Diablo or Sacred style game?

Depending on which source you read you get a different impression about how much of the existing Copernicus project resources were utilized in the development of the now revitalized joint venture. Much of the massively increased staff pool did at least come from the already in progress MMO project and it does at least appear that many of the design choices came along with them.

Kindoms of Amalur started its life over at 38 Studios as an MMO. However, when the company picked up Big Huge Games in 2009, the project was moved over to them and retooled as a single player game.

http://my.spill.com/profiles/blogs/professor-jeff-kingdoms-of-amalur-e3-gameplay-demo

compared to

"For three and a half years, we had the Amalur universe in 38 Studios," Schilling said. "The IP is being led by this team of very passionate people, we're making this MMO, we've got a roadmap – and in a 24 hour span, we add 90 employees who now all of a sudden are taking the baby being created in Boston. There's 90 people we don't know and we're handing off this multi-billion dollar, multi year project… to who?"

http://www.rpgfan.com/previews/Kingdoms_of_Amalur_Reckoning/index.html

So yeah from Schilling it sounds like he handed over the IP his people had been working on, some extra staff, a few big names, and told Big Huge Games - put this thing into a single player game. Other interviews make it sound more like they told the acquired studio to fit what they were already doing into their MMO plans. Maybe it is more or less a hybrid of the progress made by each of the original projects than it sounds but it sure is an interesting development history isn't it?

The MMO is still in development in so much that it has not be cancelled and is still in the pipeline, but it does sound like they handed off much of the resources previously produced for the MMO and the staff previously working on it to BHG to be incorperated as much as possible into what is now Kingdoms of Amalur:Reckoning. How much of their resources are still working on furthering development of the MMO is unclear but KoA has received priority over it and much of its assets.
 
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Here's one:

http://www.38fans.com/index.php/home/95-koar

Interestingly enough, the world of Amalur was originally expected to be released as Project Copernicus, a MMO that 38 Studios has been working on since late 2006 when it was founded by Curt Schilling in Maynard, MA. While the single player RPG has always been in the cards, it was originally expected to be released after Copernicus. Happily for us, the fates aligned to bring 38 Studios and Big Huge Games together, allowing them to bring Reckoning to life before Copernicus. In short, 38 Studios brought the history, life and flavor of the Amalur IP to the table and Big Huge Games provided an amazing game engine, development tools and team. Together, they gave birth to Reckoning in a shockingly short period of time starting in mid 2009. It's important to note that while Reckoning and Copernicus will both be set within the 10,000 year history created by R.A Salvator, Reckoning takes place 2000 years before Copernicus. Its also important to note that while the games are sure to have some artistic similarities given Todd McFarlane's influences, they will not look exactly the same as different engines are being used to create the two games.

Also, here's the wikipedia article on Big Huge Games to set the timeline, which shows that this game has been in development since 2007 when Ken Rolston came on board. They were acquired 2 years later, and continued working on this single-player game with a new story. This is what Curt references in your quote about suddenly turning over this new IP to a new team.

In February 2007, Big Huge Games announced that Ken Rolston, the lead designer behind The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, had come out of retirement to join the company as Lead Designer on an untitled role playing game (RPG).[4] Later that May it was announced that THQ would publish the title in 2009.[5] This marked the first title from Big Huge Games that is not distributed by Microsoft.

On January 15, 2008, THQ acquired the developer.[6]

On July 30, 2008, Grant Kirkhope joined the Big Huge Games team as an Audio Director. He had previously worked for Rare, composing for the Banjo-Kazooie and Perfect Dark games (among others).[7]

On March 18, 2009, THQ announced that due to declining economic conditions, it would close Big Huge Games unless an outside buyer could be found in the next 60 days.[8]

On May 27, 2009, 38 Studios announced that they were acquiring Big Huge Games and retaining 70 employees out of approximately 120 who were at THQ.[1]

The name of that unreleased RPG was called "Ascendant", and you can see an old trailer here (note how the combat and art style looks very similar to Reckoning):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdJpYLusR6A

As far as Copernicus is concerned, you don't see much official talk about it because it hasn't been officially announced yet. Here's a blurb from an MMORPG site that talks with some anticipation about Reckoning, more because it gives a glimpse into the world of Copernicus:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/0...f-copernicus-with-38-studios-kingdoms-of-ama/

38 Studios has been in the news quite a bit over the last year despite not having a released game under its belt. While the upstart company still lacks a finished product, it's one step closer with today's release of the first gameplay trailer for Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

The footage from the upcoming single-player RPG gives fans a first look at the world of Amalur, which 38 Studios will revisit in the Copernicus MMO to follow.

And finally, there is the FAQ from the official Reckoning website:

Q. What is Kingdoms of Amalur™?
A. Kingdoms of Amalur™ is an original fantasy universe that serves as the setting for both Reckoning and 38 Studios’ upcoming massively multiplayer game, codenamed Project Copernicus.

Q. Will there be other products available set in the same world?
A. 38 Studios has created a vast and original universe, Kingdoms of Amalur™, which contains far more content than can be included in a single game. The team’s goal is to immerse guests in this universe through an interconnected, trans-media entertainment experience, including books, toys, comics, and, of course, videogames. The cornerstones of Kingdoms of Amalur™ are the RPG Reckoning and the MMO codenamed Project Copernicus.

Q. What is Project Copernicus?
A. Project Copernicus is the codename for 38 Studios’ MMO, which is currently being developed by the 38 Studios team in Providence, RI. Copernicus will take place in Amalur at a different point in the world’s history. No details have been announced for the game, but more details will be revealed at a later date.

Before Reckoning was announced, it was known as Project Mercury. Mercury and Copernicus have always been two different projects, one a single-player game developed by BHG, and the other an MMO developed by 38 Studios. Both are still in development.
 
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So long story short....I was right;)
 
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One more reference point, this one an interview with Curt Schilling and producer Mark Nelson:

http://www.1up.com/previews/curt-schilling-reckoning-combine-oblivion

Schilling on the transition between Ascendant and Reckoning:
"I'll speak to the high-level; the technology behind Ascendant was built from the ground-up by [BHG]. So the tech pieces are absolutely them. But the IP, the story, and all that, is 100 percent Amalur and ours [38 Studios]. Artistically, it was an obvious re-do, but we had a huge headstart from that perspective."

Nelson on the developer's perspective of switching from Ascendant to Reckoning:
"What it really allowed us to do is shorten our pre-production, so we didn't have to go through a lot of the tech hurdles that we'd normally encounter. We already had an engine that did pretty much what we wanted to do anyway, we had pipelines that we liked a lot, so it really just kind of gave us a leg-up to get things moving. But beyond that it's a different game altogether — a different focus on the combat in particular, plus the different world and IP, and none of the art translated over."

Schilling on Reckoning's conception:
"So we had this rich, deep, multi-threaded 10,000-year history for Amalur that R.A. [Salvatore] created over the four years of the company. When Big Huge Games became part of the team, we wanted to find a sweet spot for them — we didn't want to just hand them something and say, 'Go make this!' That's not how you should do a buy-in. So you have Ken [Rolston] and Mark [Nelson], who both understand open-world RPGs in ways very few people do; working with R.A., we had them pick out things they like in the lore, and narrow it down further and further, until we have this sweet spot to build a game out of."

Schilling on the connection between Reckoning and Copernicus [38 Studios' MMORPG]:
"[In Amalur], the Age of Arcana is when Reckoning occurs, and this story is absolutely crucial to telling the bigger story. You're going to experience this deep, single-player story, and when Copernicus goes online, it's not going to be mysterious new IP where you walk around not knowing what things are or why the world is the way it is — it's going to be something you already know about."

"One of the core drivers behind the Amalur universe is immortality, and in every MMO or heck, every game in existence, immortality is simply, 'I respawn.' That's a game mechanic. R.A. wanted to take immortality, and turn it into a story or lore piece, rather than just a game mechanic. So you're going to see how Reckoning and Copernicus tie-in together, with things like the Well of Souls and the immortality and everything, in that regard."
 
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To be clear - I wasn't suggesting that KoA:R was an MMO entirely converted into a single player game. After reading some of the flame wars on the official site I do see some make that mistaken accusation. I do assert that it owes much to the original conceived Amalur title - 38's MMO project. After all, that is where the art design and setting come from isn't it?

What I was suggesting was that I hoped the quest icons were design or artistic elements that originated from 38's prior MMO work or at least tied to it. If this is not the case and the primary means for an NPC to be noticeably in need of an adventurer's assistance was never intended to be interaction with that NPC but a big yellow quest sign then that kind of sucks. If that was something that came along with the "obvious re-do" from the artistic perspective and an addition to the core design philosophy then I would be more hopeful.

So long story short….I was right

Long story short the point gets missed in an argument over whether the technological base (BHGs single player project) or the artistic base and Amalur setting (38's MMO and related IP) is the definitive "original game" that spawned what clearly has diverged significantly from either original concept - probably for the better. Again my hope was that the hovering giant punctuation was pulled from the the artistic design aspects originally intended to be for the MMO - that they originated in the project intended as an MMO rather in the core design philosphy for what will be released.

Mercury and Copernicus have always been two different projects, one a single-player game developed by BHG, and the other an MMO developed by 38 Studios

I think it sounds a lot more like a third project that salvages the existing technology developed by BHG and incorperates and builds upon 38's IP and artistic base created for their MMO. The only thing that changes if you chose to view it as some kind of purer continuation of their project is that the quest markers above NPCs would be part of an unfortunate original design decision rather than something extraneous introduced when working in the Copernicus setting and artistic elements.
 
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Whatever the semantics, this was always a single-player game and separate to the MMO. Anyway…

What I was suggesting was that I hoped the quest icons were design or artistic elements that originated from 38's prior MMO work or at least tied to it. If this is not the case and the primary means for an NPC to be noticeably in need of an adventurer's assistance was never intended to be interaction with that NPC but a big yellow quest sign then that kind of sucks. If that was something that came along with the "obvious re-do" from the artistic perspective and an addition to the core design philosophy then I would be more hopeful.

From my following of the project, I would suggest the quest icons are just as likely to have come from the original design. In fact, 38 Studios seems to have improved the game considerably. BHG was originally making a "RPG lite" (their own words) with no factions and as few numbers as possible. 38 Studios seems to be wanting a reasonably "hardcore" game (or at least, adding factions and more character development depth).

Whether I am right or not, 38 Studios involvement seems a positive thing. A quote from 2009 on why the project foundered before they were bought out:

"The real reason we didn't put factions in," said Rolston, "is that we made the decision that we wanted to have a streamlined RPG because we were trying to find a blue ocean strategy. We didn't actually want to copy the work that we'd done before, so we were trying to organize an experience around a very linear main narrative. And deliberately, to avoid complicating things, we stripped out factions. It turns out we were good at factions, we were expected to have them, so it sucked if we didn't do it."

Nelson dug into the issue of the drawbacks of trying to make a streamlined RPG. "I think we made a mistake trying to make RPG 'lite.' We had this idea that we could strip out all this stuff that isn't necessary for the player to see. He doesn't need to see all those numbers on the screen, he doesn't need to see every stack on his piece of armor, every stack on his weapon. We failed to remember that RPG players like that stuff. That's the stuff that makes RPGs kind of rich, kind of fun. I want to look at those stupid numbers. Yes, they clutter up the screen, and I know it offends the artists and it offends the UI guys, they say 'do we have to put so much information on there?' Yeah, we do."
 
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"We failed to remember that RPG players like that stuff. That's the stuff that makes RPGs kind of rich, kind of fun. I want to look at those stupid numbers. Yes, they clutter up the screen, and I know it offends the artists and it offends the UI guys, they say 'do we have to put so much information on there?' Yeah, we do."

This is from 2009 ?

I wonder how much of this philosophy is left within the game ?

I still know very little about this kind of game "features".
 
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