CRPG Analyzer: A checklist for computer role-playing games

HiddenX said:

okay ->

We are getting closer to a 1.0 release

Maybe we should send to Larian - last minute requirement specification for
Divinity: Original Sin

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You're thinking rather small, aren't you? Why not aim a bit higher?

This all should be turned into an article, put on the front page and get a tweet, hopefully lots of retweets, for the world to hear, all (present and future) developers included - not just Larian.

HiddenX said:

@ChienAboyeur

???

We test the current definition (Version 0.5) some more, and if it works for our testers then we give it free for use (-> Version 1.0). If it fails too often we have to work on it some more.

I'm confident that the current version is very close to our goal to identify CRPGs.

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Will every game that fit the requirement (MH) be rpgs?

An article sounds like a good idea. Any volunteers?

Before that though, we need new tests to iron out unclear wording or check points. I'd also like to see a full comparison of Baldur's Gate and Morrowind, for example, or their newer incarnations ME3 and Skyrim.

ChienAboyeur said:

Will every game that fit the requirement (MH) be rpgs?

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Yes, although only in a broad sense. They need to fit the (SH) requirements as well to be called a "CRPG" as we usually use the term, i.e. not a sub-genre of sorts. At least that's how I understand it.

The Role-playing video game entry on wikipedia is pretty interesting in regard to our discussion, especially the controversy section (haven't read the other parts yet).

Our definition is more concrete and easier to manage than the wikipedia one. I can't find major discrepancies.

Re:- Arhu's —> They need to fit the (SH) requirements as well to be called a "CRPG" as we usually use the term, i.e. not a sub-genre of sorts. At least that's how I understand it.

Not quite….

The core categories must be totally capable of defining a RPG in their own right, all the other superfluous desired extras that have been introduced are only ideals, they are not definitive in nature - as was mentioned earlier.

We must not try to run before we have learned to walk, the definition must be able to withstand any destruction test thrown at it.

This means that the core-cats need expanding further and to be more explanatory. HiddenX has kindly transferred and adapted them from the CPRG meter system, now they need polishing so as not to cause any confusion or uncertainty.

Then, and only then, re-attach the (SH) and (NtH) and tags etc' (and with any adjustments needed because of this.)

Example -> where we have:- C2) (MH) you can develop your party (stats and/or skills,…) by questing" - character stats can also be progressed as we all know by non-quest combat, this has to be in the (MH)'s - and there are other non-quest stats increase methods.

The polishing must continue.

@Wulf
C2) adjusted to:

C2) (MH) you can develop your party (stats and/or skills,…) by solving quests and other game actions like exploration, conversation, combat…

*****************************************************************

CRPG = All Must Haves (MH) must be fulfilled
If one or more (MH) are not fulfilled the game is not a CRPG.

If Should Haves (SH) are not fulfilled, the reviewer should make a comment on it.
If one or more (SH) are not fulfilled the games is most likely a borderline CRPG or a CRPG light.

If all (SH) are fulfilled there's no further discussion necessary - the game is a true CRPG.

(Tags) are CRPG tags that qualify the CRPG label even further.

The Nice to Have (NtH) and Bad to Have (BtH) checklists are for further information on CRPG elements implemented in the game.

@ Hidden, definitely, much better.

A more formal introduction, draft example, or similar, edit as required.
……………………………..
The three core categories that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as RPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. Any proposed or purported RPG must contain all three core categories and their Must Have (MH) elements fulfilled to achieve RPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each category also has a related Should Have (SH) sub list, the reviewer should make a comment if a sub list item is not fulfilled.

Should one or more (SH) not be fulfilled the game is most likely a borderline CRPG or a CRPG light.

If all (SH) are fulfilled there's no further discussion necessary - the game is a true CRPG.

(slightly smoother)?

I like your way of speaking - I hear Old England in your words

True, true.

Two related comments on the introduction:

1.) there's a distinction between "RPG" and "CRPG" — might be worth mentioning somewhere in the beginning that we are using the first term henceforth to mean the second.

2.) there's a distinction between W-RPGs and J-RPGs. We usually use "CRPG" to mean Western style CRPGs and our checklist is, arguably, based on a Western viewpoint. This may have to be made clear, too, since from a Japanese point of view, it would probably be the other way around.

Case in point: In JRPGs there may be nice-to-have's of sorts we wouldn't even think of as a CRPG-elements, like the Manga graphics style, which allows for focus on facial expressions (=> actual display of emotions) even in combat (turn-based allows zoom-in during attacks). The whole story presentation aspect is explored much more deeply in J-RPGs.

I believe that we do in parts describe both but I'm assuming that J-RPGs and what they comprise are at least in some way underrepresented in our checklists as W-RPGs.


tags
I propose a new tag section: color palette (or graphic style, mood, contrast or somesuch).

1. subdued
2. realistic
3. whimsical
4. dazzling

Examples for these would be: 1. Fallout, 2. Baldur's Gate, 3. Drakensang, 4. Final Fantasy VII

Related Trope: Real is Brown

C2) (MH) you can develop your party (stats and/or skills,…) by solving quests and other game actions like exploration, conversation, combat…

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This is too specific and elaborate now, IMHO. How about this:

C2) (MH) you can progressively develop your characters' stats or abilities

Reasoning:
1. "you can progressively develop your character" — it shouldn't matter if you do it by completing quests or through combat or exploration, just that you can do it and that you can do it more or less regularly
2. "your characters' stats or abilities" — this excludes character development in terms of story, just in case the term could be misunderstood (like learning and becoming "more mature"); "abilities" is a more encompassing term that includes skills, talents and knowledges (taken from Bloodlines )

HiddenX said:

Our definition is more concrete and easier to manage than the wikipedia one. I can't find major discrepancies.

Click to expand...

I didn't mean to refer to the definition(s), but found the parts I read so far interesting regarding possible NtH elements we haven't considered yet. Going to shuffle through it some more.

Definition of a CRPG (V0.9)

The three core categories Character Development, Exploration and Story that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their Must Have (MH) elements fulfilled to achieve CRPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each category also has a related Should Have (SH) sub list, the reviewer should make a comment if a sub list item is not fulfilled. Should one or more (SH) not be fulfilled the game is most likely a borderline CRPG or a CRPG light.
If all (SH) are fulfilled too there's no further discussion necessary ->
the game is a true CRPG.

(Tags) are computer game tags that qualify the CRPG label even further.

Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) and Bad to Have (BtH) checklists. With them you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game.

A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:

Character Development
C1) (MH) you can control one or more characters (=party)
C2) (MH) you can develop your characters' stats and/or abilities by solving quests and other game actions like exploration, conversation, combat,…
C3) (MH) you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
C4) (SH) you can create your characters
C5) (SH) character development requires careful thought and planning

Exploration
E1) (MH) by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations
E2) (MH) you can find items
E3) (MH) you can find NPCs
E4) (SH) you can manipulate the gameworld in some way (levers, buttons,…)
E5) (SH) the gameworld can affect your party (weather, traps, closed doors, …)
E6) (SH) you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles, unlock locked areas …

Story
S1) (MH) you can progress through a story
S2) (MH) you can interact with NPCs
S3) (MH) you can follow quests (at least one main quest)
S4) (SH) the story is influenced more or less by your actions
S5) (SH) you can have conversations with NPCs
S6) (SH) you can make choices in those conversations and/or in the story
S7) (SH) your choices have consequences
S8) (SH) advancing in the story requires thought (riddles, irreversible choices,…)

Combat
F1) (SH) Combat efficiency (e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access…) is in some way tied to character stats or abilities
F2) (SH) Combat should be challenging (preparing, use of tactics and/or environment possible)
______
F=Fight

@Arhu and HiddenX,

Excellent work, a great sense of it coming together now, even in its current form no other definition comes close to this. The beauty lies in the reference layout rather than using blog type descriptions, a chip off the old CRPG meter system block! - any gamer can see 'at a glance' the reference requirements.

(i find the dark blue text is a bit hard to read, could be my screen) ?

It's going to be awesome.

I read the wikipedia entry on RPGs and made random notes. Some we can probably make use of.

@HiddenX: I thought about it some and now think that we don't really need to mention "western" or "japanese" in the introduction, i.e. you can remove that sentence. If the must-have's are fulfilled, a CRPG it is. Instead, I would add "W-RPG" as a tag to make it possible to distinguish it from "J-RPGs".



Random notes

- replayability (randomized levels, items, …)
- can do things you can't in real life (setting = fantasy or sci-fi)
- automapping?
- minigames?

tags:
- roguelike: players complete quests by exploring randomly generated dungeons
- additional genre: Shooter (includes "Action"), examples: Deus Ex, Mass Effect, STALKER
- Tactical aka "simulation RPG" in Japan; examples: Fire Emblem, XCOM

char development:
- magic in some form is in the game, in addition to skills and weapons
- abilities can unlock others or branch
- character classes can be changed during the game

exploration:
- allow players to return to previously visited location
- Players must acquire enough power to overcome a major challenge in order to progress to the next area
- Players can trade items for currency and better equipment
- Trade takes place while interacting with certain friendly non-player characters
- inventory exists
- inventory size is limited
- immersion: types of enemies make sense in the area they are encountered in
- immersion: enemies are wandering persistently (no random encounters)
- day/night cycles and effects

story:
- player typically must complete a linear sequence of certain quests in order to reach the end of the game's story
- moral choices & consequences (good/evil)?
- dramatic, character-driven storyline dealing with serious themes and subject matter
- intricately related characters who had distinctive personalities and traits; players assuming the roles of people who cared about each other, fell in love or even had families; romance
- themes, symbols, and characters taken from religions or myth
- character development within the narrative
- NPCs serve more than one purpose
- player's main character is defined

combat:
- battles viewed from multiple different angles rather than a single angle

on the random notes:

- replayability (randomized levels, items, …) -> (NtH)
- can do things you can't in real life (setting = fantasy or sci-fi) -> in (tags) already
- automapping? -> (BtH) only good if skill based
- interesting minigames? -> (NtH)

tags: (->in next version)
- roguelike: players complete quests by exploring randomly generated dungeons
- additional genre: Shooter (includes "Action"), examples: Deus Ex, Mass Effect, STALKER
- Tactical aka "simulation RPG" in Japan; examples: Fire Emblem, XCOM

char development:
- magic in some form is in the game, in addition to skills and weapons -> (NtH)
- abilities can unlock others or branch -> (NtH)
- character classes can be changed during the game -> (NtH)

exploration:
- allow players to return to previously visited location -> (NtH)
- Players must acquire enough power to overcome a major challenge in order to progress to the next area -> already a (SH)
- Players can trade items for currency and better equipment -> (NtH)
- Trade takes place while interacting with certain friendly non-player characters -> ???
- inventory exists -> already a (MH)
- inventory size is limited -> (NtH)
- immersion: types of enemies make sense in the area they are encountered in -> (NtH)
- immersion: enemies are wandering persistently (no random encounters) -> (NtH)
- day/night cycles and effects -> already in

story:
- player typically must complete a linear sequence of certain quests in order to reach the end of the game's story -> ???
- moral choices & consequences (good/evil)? -> (NtH)
- dramatic, character-driven storyline dealing with serious themes and subject matter -> Adult CRPG ?
- intricately related characters who had distinctive personalities and traits; players assuming the roles of people who cared about each other, fell in love or even had families; romance -> already in
- themes, symbols, and characters taken from religions or myth -> not needed
- character development within the narrative -> ???
- NPCs serve more than one purpose -> ???
- player's main character is defined -> (BtH) ?

combat:
- battles viewed from multiple different angles rather than a single angle -> not needed

Thanks, that looks useful. My brain was already exploding just from reading.

- Trade takes place while interacting with certain friendly non-player characters -> ???

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I take it as "you can trade with actual NPCs" as opposed to trading in an abstract shop. *shrugs*

- inventory exists -> already a (MH)

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Not really: the MH only says something about equipment and enhancing your character with items, a paperdoll is enough for that. An inventory is for carrying around stuff that isn't or can't be equipped.

- player typically must complete a linear sequence of certain quests in order to reach the end of the game's story -> ???

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I think this is related to the main story and says it has more than one step.

- dramatic, character-driven storyline dealing with serious themes and subject matter -> Adult CRPG ?

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No… That was actually from a section describing J-RPGs.

- character development within the narrative -> ???

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Your character learns something about life, about himself, or "grows" as the story progresses, e.g. TNO in Plancescape: Torment, Cloud in Final Fantasy. This really only works with defined main characters, I guess.

- NPCs serve more than one purpose -> ???

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As opposed to NPCs in Diablo, for example, who do only one thing, like sell items or provide single quests.

edit: Heh @ the stamp of approval.

Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past

Single-player Fantasy Action-Adventure-RPG with a Top-down view and dazzling graphics.


The "control" tag really only makes sense if there's a party. Could add a "Single Character" option.

HiddenX said:

on the random notes:

- replayability (randomized levels, items, …) -> (NtH)

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Replayabilty is NtH of course, but for me randomised levels are a BtH, because for me it is against immersion (you are in ONE game world which has ONE "Map"). Level contents and layout should be meaningful for game world and story.

We should not include things that are NtH for some and BtH for others. Or we should define a mechanism for that in the scheme (sorry in case I have missed such mechanism).

@bkrueger

(NtH) and (BtH) are optional elements of CRPGs.

If something like Automapping for example is really Nice or Bad depends on the readers preferences. It is only important that the information is included in the checklist at all. So read these lists with a

An alternative would be: (Arhu ?)

Nice to Have
Bad to Have
Neutral


***

For Replayability I would say:

(NtH) Replayability: Many choices and options allow many interesting different pathes though the game

HiddenX said:

@bkrueger

(NtH) and (BtH) are optional elements of CRPGs.

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True, but the tags suggest that a NtH enhances the quality of a CRPG and a BtH may reduce it. So it is not a neutral list.

HiddenX said:

If something like Automapping for example is really Nice or Bad depends on the readers preferences. It is only important that the information is included in the checklist at all. So read these lists with a

For Replayability I would say:

(NtH) Replayability: Many choices and options allow many interesting different pathes though the game

Click to expand...

This is a good wording, it avoids personal preferences. Thanks.