What ever happened to RPG games

I tend to disagree. I still listen to a lot of 80s music because, well, I was a teenager in the 80s and I'm connected to the music of that time because I was going through puberty and whatnot. Because of that connection, I still find the music of the 80s as enjoyable as any contemporary tunes that I might like today.

Two points: nostalgia is about something that is lost, no longer present. People who listen to 80s music can not feel nostalgic about 80s music as the music is not gone but fully available to them. You might feel the lose of the 80s as an era though, a bit different.

Nostalgia about video games is the same: games can still be played, and sometimes, some players still play old games. It is not nostalgia that leads them to state that RPG has devolved into something else but mere direct comparison.

They have a product they play and another they play and they compare. No nostalgia in it.

With the modding capacity, it has grown worse as players can better the graphics display of the game and do it, pointing they do not play for nostalgia but really to play a game providing a better gaming experience.

Nostalgia is about idealized memories of a lost past. One cant speak of idealized memories of a lost past when a person has just played the game they spoke about one month ago and can replay the game anytime right now.

The nostalgia meme is quite popular but does not correspond with reality. Video games are not lost, they can be played right now. And players do that and compare with current batch and see a difference.
 
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ChienAboyeur, I don't know if gluttony is the right word but game players sure don't play all the way through games much. Looking at Steam achievements, it seems like less than one in four people actually complete these games with half of them qutting after about a dozen hours. That's got to make developers ask why they bother making long games.

Players have their share of responsibility, video games have grown into a social activity, speaking of the experience gives a sense of belonging to a group.

It is also a favourable situation for game developpers. It is more profitable to offer a one third of a game in gold status, two thirds in beta rather than a 90pc polished game.
 
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if you make %30 on that and you made something to be proud of…isn't that better than making %150 for crap!!!!!!
Not looking to make millions and millions of morons that can't tie their own shoes without the help of their mommy and daddys…
The industry has said no to this. Much better to sell 4 millions copies of an average, tasteless game and pocket the profit going with it than selling 300k copies of a quality game and pocketing the profits going with it.
 
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Two points: nostalgia is about something that is lost, no longer present. People who listen to 80s music can not feel nostalgic about 80s music as the music is not gone but fully available to them. You might feel the lose of the 80s as an era though, a bit different…
When someone play a game he played during his youth or teens or even play a game similar to games he played during his youth or teens, there's a nostalgia phenomena that makes him over evaluate the game.

Yes it's about a past period but the mechanism makes people over evaluated what link them to this past.

But no matter the nostalgia it's clear that some points have almost disappeared in WRPG, puzzling and complex exploration, dungeon design quality, secrets and mid secrets design, tactical turn based fights.

But about "an old Ultima with plenty very different towns", well it's more nostalgia that makes look some blocks and few one line dialogs as as strong picture of a town. Anyway if it's really the point, I'd say well ok then release games like that today, even nostalgic people won't rush on them.
 
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Life does not end after teen age.

A lot of memories can be attached to a game: finishing it in one week, being absorbed by it ten days straight, eating good pasta while playing it, being on a successful streak at work and so on ...

At this point, it is impossible to speak of a past without associating with other (un)pleasurable experiences that happened during the same time frame.

None of that is nostalgia.
 
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I'm somewhere in between. A lot of the nostalgia for the days of yore is just nostalgia. It is really hard to argue that the goldbox games, Eye of the Beholder, or most other games from the period when I started playing RPGs around 1990 are better RPGs than modern games.

Well, I want to take Ultima 7 as an example.

It doesn't have a good character building system, and the combat while exciting is not that complex either.

But aside from that and graphics it is superior to any modern game you could suggest to me.

Walk across a huge world, no loading screens, move or manipulate any object anywhere in the world. No invisible walls. Buy a boat, wagon, or other means of travel… which you control yourself.

Lots of unique environments lovingly crafted by artist.

Companions have feelings and will protest if you steal or do bad deads.

People eat, drink, walk around, open windows, have a life.

You can bake bread.

Lots of funny puzzles and dungeons.

Great story, still relevant today.

Huge amount of unique items and weapons.

Lots of interesting companions to choose from.

Great villain.

Great music.

Variety in quests and length in quests. For example the opening murder mystery just wow!

Lots of great dialogue!

Lots of mysterious places… ( something really missing in most modern games )

I could go on.

Anyway it is so sad what games these days have become…. I mean this game is so old… but still so superior to anything out there today.
 
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The reality is that games cost money. Ultima 4 cost a fraction of any modern game to make due to it not having to spend the amount modern games have too on graphics(not cheap on man power and cost) Unfortunately making a game like ultima 4 now a days with somewhat decent graphics would take a few years for someone to develop with a team big enough to complete it and actually make a profit. A game unfortunately needs flashy graphics or mass appeal to make back what they spend making them./QUOTE]

Who demands games actually *need* flashy graphics aha "eye candy" ?

Who demands that ? We, the gamers - or those who build graphics cards, for example ?

With graphics like with in Ultima 4, no graphics card market would ever survive. We would be right here, in stagnation.

Demanding better graphics is like two sides of a coin : It increses the technical development,
but on the other hand it decreses the creativity, because creative developers alone just aren't able anymore to deliver those high-cos graphics a gamer would want nowadys.

And then there's MineCraft. Or Dwarf Fortress.
Games with mass appeal (well, relatively) WITHOUT fancy graphics.
How is this possible ? These games shouldn't exist ! - At least if we follow the thought that games WITHOUT flashy graphics MUST fail instanly !

And then there's the Browser Games, too. Graphics like in Crysis ? In WHICH browser game, I ask ?
But still, they generate mass appeal. Bigpoint isn't a giant in terms o gmes without any reason.
We just don't see it because Bigpoint is working on a different field.

In my opinion, there's just a wrong consensus like "games must be THIS way - or they'll fail intantly !"

And one of these false assumption is - in my eyes - that games MUST have great graphics in order to appeal [to the masses] !
Or, reversely thought : That games WITHOUT great graphics will fail regardless.

Conspiracy theory or not, I just feel like driven cattle - driven by those who prefer to sell their own things - like graphics cards, for example. Ever wondered why they are so bad in 2D ? Because they're always optimizing the 3D part - and neglecting the 2D part or even axing it altogether.

Indies - Than God ! - don't follow these false asumptions. They don't evn hve the money for flashy graphics.

It's just that we - nd the game magazine editirs, of course ! - are just USED to so much luxury like flashy graphics.

But we don't NEED to.

Fun just isn't bound with grapics.

It is bound with something else - like gameplay, for example.

You can have the best-looking meal on your table - but if it tastes like dust, then the best look is in vain.
 
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P.S. I just finished Fallout 3: New Vegas. The topic title is sounding exceedingly silly to me right now.

Man after my own heart.

Everyone has an idea of what an RPG is to them. It's part nostalgia and part what got you into the genre, what is the norm for you. Things you prized back then like say map-making or D&D character creation might be things largely absent now, and then you might complain "real" RPGs are dead. It's been happening for two decades now... "these modern games have nothing on Ultima"... "these modern games have nothing on Might & Magic"... "these modern games have nothing on Betrayal at Krondor"... "these modern games have nothing on Fallout 2"... "these modern games have nothing on Deus Ex"... "these modern games have nothing on Gothic 2"... "these modern games have nothing on Fallout: New Vegas"... "these modern games have nothing on Icewind Dale 3: Colder in Hell."

It will repeat over and over again forever and ever until the end of time. Someday there will be some guy making a post about how "we just don't get good games like Oblivion and Mass Effect anymore, it's all dumbed-down now."

In the end you ride the wave as far as you can and you treasure what is important to you. Can't do anything other than that. I still like the waves today, even if I thought the waves 10 years ago were better.
 
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"we just don't get good games like Oblivion and Mass Effect anymore, it's all dumbed-down now."

I am trying of a way to think more dumbed down than the above mentioned games.

So in the future the games will be about clicking the left or right mouse-button? ( left move the game forward, right move the game backwards ? )

I certainly hope you are wrong and we'll be going in the other direction, with gamers saying. Thanks god we don't get such a dumbed down games as Mass Effect or Oblivion anymore.
 
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I am trying of a way to think more dumbed down than the above mentioned games.

So in the future the games will be about clicking the left or right mouse-button? ( left move the game forward, right move the game backwards ? )

I certainly hope you are wrong and we'll be going in the other direction, with gamers saying. Thanks god we don't get such a dumbed down games as Mass Effect or Oblivion anymore.

The point is that it is all perspective based on your experiences. For someone who started RPGing with Oblivion there are entirely different perspectives on what is right and wrong, what is dumbed down and what is streamlined, etc. etc. I started RPGing with Fallout and Baldur's Gate, so when I look back on Might and Magic or Ultima I see hassles and inconveniences. For someone who started with Ultima IV they might look forward and see streamlining and simplification.

It's all relative, is my point. A thread like this pops up literally on a daily basis across PC gaming focused forums like this one. It's the same rant, over and over, about how the modern kids don't get it and real RPGs were _____ and ______. It's the same thing with my father liking Alice Cooper and Ozzy back in the day but yelling at me when I was a kid because I liked Marilyn Manson. It's all relative and based on your experiences.

I thought Oblivion was crap compared to Morrowind. Some people said Morrowind was crap compared to Daggerfall. When Skyrim comes out some people will think it sucks compared to Oblivion. And on, and on, and on, and on…
 
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RP games turned into something else in a step by step process: observers report changes at each iteration. Actually, it is just the depiction of a successful transformation process.

If the process has ten stages, the guy who observes from stage 0 to 9 sees differences at each stage but the guy observing from 5 to 9 also reports changes at every stage.

The only difference is that the guy who observed from the start has all encompassing point of view while the guy who initiated in the middle lacks references. And of course, it is relative as people compare RPG genre to what is now sold as RPGames.

RPG genre was characterized by various characteristics like involving role playing situations which are less and less frequent in what is called cRPGaming.
 
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But lets take Dragons age 2,
Let´s take Fallout: New Vegas, Dragon Knight Saga and Drakensang 2 instead ;).

Just my personal thoughts … that a RPG should have traps, hidden doors, buttons and what not to figure out….either by your own or by reading what has been left for you to in other places….

I too would like a bit more kick ass dungeon crawling antics in AAA/AA games, but it´s not like it´s neglected totally - Fallout: New Vegas has some very good "dungeons" (vaults) and then there´s Risen whose dungeons are as "old school" as it gets - hidden buttons, traps, need to use certain spell in the right moment, using a bow to flip a lever, etc - they just weren´t well placed in the context of the whole game, hopefully PB will "fix" this in Risen 2 (and not abandon dungeons altogether, that would be a pity).
 
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One could see traps (or better : a character walking into one) as a disturbance in a cinematic experience ... ;)
 
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RP games turned into something else in a step by step process: observers report changes at each iteration. Actually, it is just the depiction of a successful transformation process.

If the process has ten stages, the guy who observes from stage 0 to 9 sees differences at each stage but the guy observing from 5 to 9 also reports changes at every stage.

The only difference is that the guy who observed from the start has all encompassing point of view while the guy who initiated in the middle lacks references. And of course, it is relative as people compare RPG genre to what is now sold as RPGames.

RPG genre was characterized by various characteristics like involving role playing situations which are less and less frequent in what is called cRPGaming.

You're pretty much saying what I am saying exactly, I just don't think you realize it. On your 1-10 scale some people started at 1 and think that is what an RPG is, but the people who started at 4 think that 4 is what an RPG is. If today is 7 then tomorrow there will be people who think 8 is what an RPG is.

Where you go wrong is assuming that 1 is the correct answer... it isn't. The first generation of something is far from the perfect version of it in any genre or category, games included. Which number is the "right" number is subjective and based off your personal experiences and tastes. There is no correct answer, it doesn't exist.
 
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But aside from that and graphics it [Ultima VII] is superior to any modern game you could suggest to me.

I agree with that. To this day, few games have only come close to matching the feature set of U7.
 
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And then there's MineCraft. Or Dwarf Fortress.
Games with mass appeal (well, relatively) WITHOUT fancy graphics.
How is this possible ? These games shouldn't exist ! - At least if we follow the thought that games WITHOUT flashy graphics MUST fail instanly !

I think its a barrier to entry issue, which also depends on the age of the gamer. Younger gamers demand higher levels of graphics because their baseline is much higher than those of us that grew up with gaming in the 80's or 90's.

As an example, I'm 35, so my teenage years were spent in what some consider the 'Golden Age' from '85-'95. One of my good friends is 25. he barely remembers any of the games from before '95. We both lament the current state of gaming, yet when he went back to try the original Ultima IV and Ultima V, it didn't hold his interest at all. Yet he'll play Fallout and Baldur's Gate until the cows come home!

I on the other hand had a blast replaying Ultima's I-V a few years back. I bought M&MI-VI on GOG when it was on sale and can't wait to play them (I never have). He'd probably be bored out of his mind.

I was thinking about the 'rpg problem' last night actually (before even seeing this post) and I thought a couple things:

1) Graphics are definitely a large part of the problem, but only because they cost so much and take so much out of the budget, but that can't be helped if you want to appeal to a decent amount of people that are under 30.

2) In older games, they were often sandboxes where you could do what you want, where you want, and the story was really just small bits and pieces that we filled in the rest. We accepted this and it was fine, but it doesn't work as well in modern games, particularly 3-D games. I take the U6: Project as an example.

Don't get me wrong, I love the remake and had a blast with it, but I still haven't finished it. Why? Because the world is too huge, IMO, for a sandbox game. I spend a lot of time wandering around trying to remember where I left my boat (if its been a while since I played) or find the entrance to a dungeon or whatever. While they improved the story significantly, it still is dependent 100% on the user to advance the story. It's purely reactive instead of proactive. Modern games need a mix of both. Now don't get me wrong, they accomplished what they set out to do, which was modernize Ultima VI, and they did an out of this world job of it.

So what does all that rambling mean? It means in today's games, we NEED a stronger storyline. We need something that drives us from point A to point B, outside of just 'well, I haven't been there yet, so let's explore'. That works for a while, but in games of this size, we need more. Not necessarily in a tactical RPG, but in a story RPG.

The problem is that because the graphics and other technology take up so much of the budget, you either end up with not enough story to keep you interested, or rail-roaded along a specific story arc (like what I hear from DA2). Both are easier to do than creating an interactive narrative with real choices and consequences.

IMO, I think BG2 really nailed that. Yes, ultimately regardless of you choices, you were driving towards the same final battle and choices, but all the things you did along the way determined how you got there.

Modern games need a better balance of story that just seems to really be lacking.
 
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The point is that it is all perspective based on your experiences. For someone who started RPGing with Oblivion there are entirely different perspectives on what is right and wrong, what is dumbed down and what is streamlined, etc. etc. I started RPGing with Fallout and Baldur's Gate, so when I look back on Might and Magic or Ultima I see hassles and inconveniences. For someone who started with Ultima IV they might look forward and see streamlining and simplification.

I started with Moria, Rogue, Wizardry I, Pool of Radiance 1 to 3, Might & Magic 1&2 then 3 or 4 I don't remember, Citadel: Adventure of the Crystal Keep, Eyes of The Beholder, Ultima Underworld and finally Ultima 7, Wizardry VII, plus few other I don't remember now.

For Ultima 7 it could have been bad luck but once out of startup town the game stop catch me, I think Ultima Underworld grab me instead. I didn't finished both but played quite a lot of UU.

And well with a possible exception of Ultima 7, I consider Fallout 1 hugely better than all of them. And BG1&2 quite better than all of them. For me there's just no comparison. BUT, dungeon design and puzzle design of games like Ultima Underworld or Dungeon Master are just hugely superior. If I remember well, fights of Pool of Radiance series was just more deep. And more.

The problem is some values started decrease with Fallout 1 and BG1&2, dungeons designs, exploration tricks, puzzles and tricks, secrets and middle secrets, tactical fights turn based. At first, mainly for deeper story and characters, but also deeper companions. And then 3D broke all by high rocketing budget.

Once more I'd quote a game like BG would cost up to 6 more time to be done in current RPG standards ie impossible. This is mainly 3D cost and highly detailed environment plus monsters plus characters, and voice acting, and more.

If at least a game like Avernum had impressive sells or let dream the future Avadon. But there's no clear clues that a new game like BG1 or Fallout 1 out of their license context would be able to make enough high sell for a profit. I mean, no 3D but Iso, no voice acting, and so on.
 
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Well, I want to take Ultima 7 as an example.

*snip*

Anyway it is so sad what games these days have become…. I mean this game is so old… but still so superior to anything out there today.

Agree 100%.

It's so fucking annoying to see people try to claim it's only nostalgia when gamers complain about some of the newer games. I've been playing Ultima 7 recently, and I can honestly say it's *far* better than 90% of the RPGs released in the last 5-10 years. That's only one example..there's quite a few others as well. That's not to say that all modern games are crap, because that's obviously not true. It's just that a lot of the newer games seem to be missing things that made the older ones great.
 
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I agree with that. To this day, few games have only come close to matching the feature set of U7.

I didn't played that much of the game. I played a bit more some years ago but stopped because fps bored me (I should not have used the original game). so it's just a series of questions:
  • Are really the fights that good? I remember more something quite average.
  • Is really outdoor area was so fun to explore? I don't remember at all outdoor was that interesting and consider a game like Gothic 2+NOTR is an example hugely better for that point.
  • Are really tricks and puzzles that good? Sure better than modern games but I remember them quite weak when compared to games like Dungeon Master or Ultima underworld.
  • Great dungeons??
  • Great story? I didn't found the story and the writing even half as good than in a game like The Witcher.

Is Ultima 7 really that good? Well I never quoted it. That said, items interaction, NPC living, story spreading, and more, yes many impressive elements not matched in any other game. But not only amazing points I think.

EDIT:
And for world depth and gigantism I don't think it can even compare to a game like Avernum 1, because the multi scale approach is just a hugely better approach for setting up a wide world, and when it's so well done as in Avernum 1, I doubt Ultima 7 could compare well on that point of view.
 
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