Fallout 4 - On the New Combat System

DArtagnan said:

You'd stop playing them? I thought you were all about seeing the positive things about games and being happy with the good parts?

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I am, but I only play RPGs. I don't play first-person shooters, adventure games, action games, or anything but RPGs.

If Fallout becomes a first-person shooter like Call of Duty, I won't be playing it.

You mean you only play RPGs with a lot of visible stats, I get it.

It's refreshing to hear you exclude games based on personal preferences

DArtagnan said:

You mean you only play RPGs with a lot of visible stats, I get it.

It's refreshing to hear you exclude games based on personal preferences

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RPGs with lots of stats, dice rolls and complex character building options are my favorite.

Games that focus heavily on action like Witcher 3 greatly bore me.

So yes, I prefer stat-based games with lots of numbers to crunch and complex mechanics. I'm sure you've seen my top 10 lists before so you should know this by now. Considering how close you seem to follow me, I'm sure you know it.

It's not that I hate other genres. I like strategy games as well. But if given the choice of playing the new Tomb Raider, Assassin's Creed, GTA V, etc., or an RPG, the RPG wins every time.

Fluent said:

RPGs with lots of stats, dice rolls and complex character building options are my favorite.

Games that focus heavily on action like Witcher 3 greatly bore me.

So yes, I prefer stat-based games with lots of numbers to crunch and complex mechanics. I'm sure you've seen my top 10 lists before so you should know this by now. Considering how close you seem to follow me, I'm sure you know it.

It's not that I hate other genres. I like strategy games as well. But if given the choice of playing the new Tomb Raider, Assassin's Creed, GTA V, etc., or an RPG, the RPG wins every time.

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I'd say Witcher 3 focuses more on story than action, but that's ok.

Nothing wrong with your preferences. It's a lot easier to understand than when you say you like everything if you want to, and that I should learn to not be negative about games I don't like, which I never understood

So, cool - and thanks for finally making a bit of sense!

Archangel said:

I like it more how Vampire Bloodlines did it with the crosshair dancing and taking long time to become small and all that depending on how good was your firearms skill. Although people complained about it, that was the proper way to implement RPG stats into a shooter gameplay that was F3 and is F4

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Agreed.

I liked how firearms in VtM:B were weak at the beginning but became very powerful when putting points in it. Celerity and Firearms was a real über combination .

Although I don't mind if there is a mix of player skill and RPG elements. There is so much more to an RPG than mere combat so IMO it is a fallacy to say that skill based gameplay is "forbidden" for it to be considered an RPG.

As long as I can make strategic choices as I progress my character and I can feel myself becoming more powerful when being smart about it, I'm happy.

I've always liked player-driven combat because it makes me feel more engaged to what's happening.

I also love stat-heavy systems with a lot of tactical nuances.

I really have no preference, it's more a matter of fitting the game. Immersion-heavy games like this should never be drenched in stats - as it ruins the feeling of being there, in the world.

I'm playing stick skillz Borderlands 2 and I suck I'll be glad if Fallout 4 lets me have slightly better chances with my random firings. I was fairly decent at killing in F3 and FNV.

Actually this is a good move. I never used the "turn-based combat" in Fallout 3 or 4, it was slow and sluggish and it made no sense. It was much easier to line up headshots by aiming manually than to rely on the super low odds of shooting correctly. So why would you attempt the latter?

Fluent said:

Now, I'm not worried about Fallout 4 because Todd clearly says it's not going to shy away from the RPG elements.

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An unbiased source with a reputation for never spinning the facts.

DArtagnan said:

It's interesting that people seem to think that character-driven gameplay must be about combat.

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The topic of the post is "On the new combat system." That is why people are talking about combat… and you know… character progression in regard to the combat system. Personally I tend to play stealth in almost all of Bethesda's games, because their combat is often too simplistic. There are a boat load of other stats and skills in Fallout that advance your character in other ways for other aspects of the game, and/or for avoiding combat when possible.

I think that if you're going to make an RPG with stats, character progression, perks, etc., then you might as well extend that "RPG-ness" to the combat system, too.

An RPG that has interesting character progression yet Call of Duty combat would be a letdown for me.

I want those crunchy stats and RPG things in my RPGs. That's a big reason why I play this genre in the first place.

I think in the case of Fallout, they are continually tweaking to find that perfect balance between dynamic and stat-based. Fallout 3 is still an RPG, and I have no doubt that Fallout 4 will not try to drastically reinvent the wheel when it comes to the RPG aspects in the game.

In short, bring on Fallout 4.

I think this is a problem for a 3d first person rpg that also wants to be a shooter. It just doesn't meld very well. It isn't like fantasy with swords and stuff, where rpg-like stats can be made the focus of the action more naturally.

Honestly, the more I read about Fallout 4, the less interested in it I become.

As to whether a combat system based on "twitch" or stats is best, I lean towards a stat based system, Morrowind style, at least for a serious rpg…

Morrowind still has "twitch", if we make it to mean player skill. You still move around, choose when to engage, time dodges, etc. Nothing wrong with involving player skill as long as the success is heavily influenced by the character stats.

As others have mentioned, in FO4, the player still does the moving, dodging, timing throws, etc but the stats should affect aim, speed of motion, distance of grenades, etc. Player skill and character stats don't have to be on opposite poles.

Saxon1974 said:

So since it's a shooter can rpgwatch exclude it now from the news lists?

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Fall out 4 is RPG. Shooter maniacs have just not realized yet they've been playing for years now RPGs.

The future is RPG.

irongamer said:

The topic of the post is "On the new combat system." That is why people are talking about combat… and you know… character progression in regard to the combat system. Personally I tend to play stealth in almost all of Bethesda's games, because their combat is often too simplistic. There are a boat load of other stats and skills in Fallout that advance your character in other ways for other aspects of the game, and/or for avoiding combat when possible.

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I'm not sure why you're telling me this.

I'm talking about locking an RPG down to something where combat has to be stat-driven.

I'm arguing that's a very narrow view of the genre.

You can even let stats decide damage done in a fitting manner with Intelligence skill combined with crafting. A intelligent person will be able to tweak his weapons or ammo to do a bit more damage or get another benefit (like unique craft only mods)

Arkadia7 said:

I think this is a problem for a 3d first person rpg that also wants to be a shooter. It just doesn't meld very well. It isn't like fantasy with swords and stuff, where rpg-like stats can be made the focus of the action more naturally.

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I think the problem lies in how they present this sort of system, though.

Just because there is a crosshair, or you are using guns, swords, or are in the first-person doing combat, does not mean the game is a full 100% realization of a free shooting/slashing system.

I think gamers somehow have trouble making the connection that combat in a game like Morrowind is an abstraction of real-time combat.

Much like combat operates in Baldur's Gate. Not every swing with your sword hits, even though it "looks" as though it does.

In these games you have the opportunity to put yourself in the best position to succeed with a combination of stat progression and player strategy, but the outcomes of the dice rolls and thus if you win the encounter or not will largely hinder on how good your stats are.

I prefer games that lean further towards the stat-based outcomes rather than the stick skillz side, but it's just my preference.

I would hope that if the Fallout series wants to continue to be an RPG, they should lean more that way, too. And I think they will, it will just be tweaked a bit to make it more 'dynamic', as Todd said.

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines was another RPG in first-person that still felt like an RPG and had first-person combat. There are ways to do it so you don't ditch the stats.