Thoughts on Mass Effect 3 after completing it

What are you comparing them to? War and Peace? :) I'd say the stories in those games far exceeded "decent" by video game standards.

What games in your opinion have exceptional stories?
 
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In my opinion, if you were a fan ME1 + 2, then ME3 is a must play. I found the game to be well worth the $60 price tag and thoroughly enjoyed my time in it. Yes, the ending was... weird, but 40 hours of fanservice entertainment > 20 minutes of "Wha-? How the-? Huh? Wait a minute..."
 
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What are you comparing them to? War and Peace? :) I'd say the stories in those games far exceeded "decent" by video game standards.

What games in your opinion have exceptional stories?

I guess you're not reading my postings…

Yes, some shit stinks less than other. It doesn't make it great though.
 
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I meant by game standards, not literary standards.

To most people that would be common sense, seeing as how this is a game forum...
 
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Let's face it - Bioware was simply hyped to be the masters of storytelling - but I have yet to see their alleged competence.
Speaking strictly about ME series, there are two major story arcs that I´ve definitely found to be handled competently - genophage and geth/quarians.
Both start in ME1, are further explored in ME2 and lead to imo satisfying conclusions in ME3. Both also involve some of the better written characters (Mordin and Legion especially).
And I think ME3 managed to capitalize on the groundwork laid in the previous games really well in these cases, in terms of storytelling, in terms of presentation and in terms of mechanics (choices made in the previous games actually do matter and there are further choices related to these arcs available in ME3 as well).
As far as story arcs go, for me these two were the highlights of ME3 as well as of the entire series and I think they may as well be the best pieces of storytelling Bioware has ever come up with.
Personally I´ve found playing ME3 worthwhile for the resolution of these two arcs alone.

Also, while the main story unfortunately took a nosedive in the latter titles, it was handled very well in ME1 in my opinion. There may have been some plot holes, but, well, not all plot holes are of same type, significance and obviousness and personally I don´t remember one that would bother me. What I remember is an entertaining space opera ride with great crescendo (Virmire-Ilos-Citadel) at the end, which played out in a well developed, albeit not original, universe.

Then there´s a lot of more "micro" stuff that is good too. For example, Garrus in ME3 rulez :).
 
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How can you say you don't remember any significant plot holes? Did you forget what happened in ME1? Go read mrokwas' last post in the other ME3 thread in this forum. It's full of a list of obvious plot holes. Really people not getting upset and forgetting what happened in previous games is what gives Bioware free reign to pull this crap. They did similar things with DA2 where some of your choices were retconned out of the game so they could write things differently.
 
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DeepO, Garrus rulez in all MEs, I wouldn't dare to assemble a team without him. ;)

Warning for those who read this before finishing the game - this post contains light spoilers.

Most things are already said, I'll just say that the game shouldn't be judged just because the endings part where your choices have a minor impact were poorly implemented. It's a actually great conclusion to the trilogy (despite the plot holes), it's not better than ME1 (guys, I LOVED mako, so… sorry, but can't forgive designers for removing it because majority disliked it), it's better than ME2 (planet scans were driving me away from that game all the time) and the game shown that DA2 design fail can be reworked into a better scheme - swarms don't appear from thin air but are jumping out of ships.

Noone, at least those who studied sidequests, can say that the story overall sucks. It's actually awsome and it brings things like EDI's contemplating if AI is really that superior if a "sandworm vulgaris" managed to kill a reaper on it's own. The action part ain't bad at all except… Where are fights against those mentioned worms? A minus from me. QTEs are designed better than in TW2, you almost don't even know those are in the game unless you stay at a spot when you should move which is a big plus.

The game is fun, you'll enjoy every hour invested into playing it, you'll forget and forgive some tiny stuff you dislike, but somehow the ending, or if you want the endings design, doesn't feel right - it feels rushed, unpolished and incompatible with the whole trilogy and the role you were playing all the time.

But even with such depressive and unsatisfying endings, even without F.Ashes DLC which is really nice as is sheding some more lights to Protheans society and their clash against reapers, ME3 is definetly a candidate for Game of the Year title.

You're here not to read someone saying it's a great game but to find some more minuses? Okay, another minus - Claudia Black('s voice) is not used enough in the game! I want(ed) more! Yes, I'm aware Robert Picardo's voice is used for too much characters in Skyrim, but we do have an opposite extreme here. :)
More minuses? Mentioned Skyrim… ME3 doesn't have memorable oneliners, so we didn't get "an arrow to the knee" nor "no lollygaggin'" material for sigs on forums. A big shame for script writers.
Let's forget Skyrim and move to TV shows… And there we have it, a planet in the game is called Terra Nova. Meh. Now we can suspect why that average but still promising show was cancelled - Fox probably payed too much money to Bethesda for a hidden advertisment!
I could pull out many more minor things actually but what's the point - all those minuses are actually subjective and are according to my taste - someone else despises Claudia Black (OMG, blasphemy!!!), and other ppl can't digest those Skyrim oneliners. So I'll stop here.

Additional thing to mention, I really do expect that there will be ME4, with Sheppard as recurring character (or not if in your ending he died and you imported the save). Why do I think that? It'll sell. What will it be about if Mass Relays are destroyed? Who cares, really? ;)

And from The Escapist, a comic about the endings design:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9476-Mass-Effect-3-The-Process

85327.jpg
 
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How can you say you don't remember any significant plot holes? Did you forget what happened in ME1? Go read
No. You go read my post again.
It should be fairly obvious that I was talking about plot holes confined in ME1 only, not about stuff that was later plot holed/retconned via ME2 or ME3.
That paragraph is not about the whole series.
 
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Speaking strictly about ME series, there are two major story arcs that I´ve definitely found to be handled competently - genophage and geth/quarians.
Both start in ME1, are further explored in ME2 and lead to imo satisfying conclusions in ME3. Both also involve some of the better written characters (Mordin and Legion especially).

I agree - those two arcs seem to be written by someone who has yet to lose his marbles. However, they are but two arcs of a bigger picture - which spoils everything those two elements accomplish. After all its main story arch that we are talking about. You can screw up everything but that and still have a decent story to tell. However, fuck up this and whatever you do is like icing on a gigantic heap of turd.

And I think ME3 managed to capitalize on the groundwork laid in the previous games really well in these cases, in terms of storytelling, in terms of presentation and in terms of mechanics (choices made in the previous games actually do matter and there are further choices related to these arcs available in ME3 as well).

I disagree, unless by capitalize you mean "show that the entire writing team (with the exception of the lad/lass who wrote Mordin) deserves immediate sacking". The story just doesn't make sense, is full of cliches, which are executed in the most mundane fashion. The choices in the previous games matter very little. Yeah, so you get a flavour dialogue, and a bonus/penalty to War Assets. So? Arcanum happened, Fallouts happened, Witcher happened - all of them have better executed C&C.
It's good that there are some, but it's still just unimpressive.

As far as story arcs go, for me these two were the highlights of ME3 as well as of the entire series and I think they may as well be the best pieces of storytelling Bioware has ever come up with.
Personally I´ve found playing ME3 worthwhile for the resolution of these two arcs alone.

Again, two well-executed arcs do not make a decent story. It's like saying the whole dinner was awful, but the potatos made up for it.

Also, while the main story unfortunately took a nosedive in the latter titles, it was handled very well in ME1 in my opinion. There may have been some plot holes, but, well, not all plot holes are of same type, significance and obviousness and personally I don´t remember one that would bother me. What I remember is an entertaining space opera ride with great crescendo (Virmire-Ilos-Citadel) at the end, which played out in a well developed, albeit not original, universe.

Fair enough, though personally I found the story in ME 1 uncompelling. There was nothing wrong with it per se, just I couldn't connect with any of the characters, the whole idea of prothean beacons, visions and the impending annihilation, as far fetched as you could get, not deserving the name of sci-fi. Still, yeah it was the best story in the series. Solid space fantasy.

Then there´s a lot of more "micro" stuff that is good too. For example, Garrus in ME3 rulez :).

Yes, but there are many MACRO stuff that are wrong - the pacing, the lack of tension, the ever-convenient "we've found plans for hyper-weapon that will destroy the Reapers. How timely!", the integration of the narrative into the gameplay, the "twists" you could see from miles ahead (hello TIM), those dream sequences that came out of nowhere for no reason and purpose , the fact that as a heroe of the galaxy and a commander in reality you command NOTHING, and finally the ending, which has NOTHING to do with what you've accomplished (some random dude appears 5 mins before the credits roll and for no reason gives you the right to do with the reapers as you please. WHAT?!). Add to that gameplay mechanics (planet scanning? AGAIN?!! Also Reapers chasing you on the map… Really? Also fetch quests… Also godawful dialogue wheel… Also...) that really hurt the tense nature of the story and you have one big clusterfu**.

That is not to say the ME3 as a game is all bad. No it is not - but I will never, ever believe that ME series can be hold as a model of writing stories for video games. It's so pedestrian, pulpy and inaptly executed (despite a few highlights - those alone do little to improve it) that no game ever aiming for the status of best written should take anything from it. Can it be satisfying as a B-grade flick about killing rubber-headed alliens with lazor pistols? Sure! But nothing more.
 
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No, the point is that if you are playing a game for the great story and are often disappointed, maybe you should be reading instead.

That's very short-sighted statement. First of all, games are another form of entertainment, like novels or films. No one in the history of the cinema said - "well, if you want to have a decent story, read a book". And even if someone did say that, if everyone follwed the suit, we wouldn't get any great accomplishments of storytelling in this medium.

Secondly, my original past attacks people who claim that the story in ME series is the most amazingest thing ever. No, it's not - neither by very high literary standards, nor by gaming standards.

Thirdly, you seem to be under impression that story cannot be integrated into the gameplay. However most RPGs - computer and P&P ones are based upon this integration - without at least a skeleton of a story you have no framework to create gameplay around. Additionally decent-to-good story has proven to enhance experience in games such as Planescape: Torment or Thief. It just gives you a drive to move forward, to see what's behind the horizont. Add to that stronger integration with gameplay - branching questlines, skillchecks that allow to solve a problem in a number of different ways, choices/actions and consequences/effects and you have very strong candidate for the best RPG.

Failing that, you create just another variation of a killing simulator, where you farm mobs for xp. :yawn:
 
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the entire idea of Reapers starting their invasion with Earth

They didn't start with Earth. They destroyed the Batarian Hegemony before reaching Earth. It's just that nobody cared (it's mentioned in the game). Also, Alliance space was the next sectors they had access to after the Batarian's ones, because of the Mass Relays.

The Reapers still wanted to make a human Reaper as well, Earth was like the best fish pond around for it...
 
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Thirdly, you seem to be under impression that story cannot be integrated into the gameplay.

Nope. Just that the best writers don't write for games. You'll almost always get a second rate story. Until novels go away (don't hold your breath) this will always be the case.

BTW the movie analogy while applicable (even though I dislike analogies) also actually supports my argument. Very few movies for me are as compelling as a well written novel… Visualization cannot make up for poor storytelling. Same can be said for gameplay.

But I'd prefer a game with good gameplay over story any day. I can get a good story from a novel. Similar holds for movies. Best for visualization, not story.

It's great when you can get it all in a game, but I've rarely seen it. Realism is a bummer…
 
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No. You go read my post again.
It should be fairly obvious that I was talking about plot holes confined in ME1 only, not about stuff that was later plot holed/retconned via ME2 or ME3.
That paragraph is not about the whole series.
Maybe YOU should go read that paragraph again. The very first sentence talks about the main story getting worse in later titles. It is talking about the whole series. The very next sentence mentions plot holes. It's pretty easy to think you were talking about the entire series. Although, I would be interested in what plot holes you're referring to in the first game.
 
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Well if you are trying to compare CRPG writing with good literature, games will fall short 99.9% of the time. I you want a good story, the answer is read a book from an acclaimed author, not play a CRPG from a has been game developer.

No, I don't expect grand story (like Torment) from every single RPGs I buy (although, I won't say no to it :D), but it's a bonus. And when the developers promise something, people wishes to see it getting fullfilled. Bioware's main strength was decent story/decent NPCs (BG series, KotoR, DA:O, ME1) which is what most people will be expecting when they buy/play Bioware games - so when they fail to deliver it, obviously fans/gamers will be disappointed.
 
Nope. Just that the best writers don't write for games. You'll almost always get a second rate story. Until novels go away (don't hold your breath) this will always be the case.

I must say, I don't understand your position here. Novels are non-interactive medium, whereas games are (or at least are supposed to be) interactive. While these two media have things in common, they are vastly different - perhaps more than novels and movies. I would hazard a statement that even the best novel writer would do badly in gaming medium, if not properly prepared.

BTW the movie analogy while applicable (even though I dislike analogies) also actually supports my argument. Very few movies for me are as compelling as a well written novel… Visualization cannot make up for poor storytelling. Same can be said for gameplay.

I don't agree with "very few movies" being as compelling as a novel. There are very good films out there, who fully take advantage of the visual power of the medium - from blockbusters to little known films, from fully realistic depiction to animations - if you play your cards right, you can achieve something formidable. There are actually movies realised better than their novel orilignals. For example, compare Forrest Gump - the Novel, with its film adaptation. The movie wins hands down, because it delivers genuine tragedy mixed with sour comedic elements, instead of being a string of cliche misadventures of a village idiot.

Yes, there is plenty of hackneyed trash among all films - but the same is true in the book market. For every Dostoyevsky there are hundreds of Harlequin novel writters some of whom enjoy substantial readership. Is this a reason to tell me - "well, if you don't like it go to the theatre or something" (and theatre is a form of artistic expression that vastly predates novels)? Hardly. I simply will demand and look for more of Dostoyevsky and avoid Harlequin novels like plague.

Why won't I do that with Mass Effect franchise, you ask? You see, normally I couldn't care less about the quality of the story in ME series. So it's a pulp fiction game with some robots going pew=pew, and aliens going pew-pew, and humans going kboom! Cool! You can enjoy that in the same way one enjoys B-grade horror movies with lots of ketchup. No biggie.

The problem is, this B-grade rubbish is actually held as a model of writing and encapsulating stories within the gameplay? The hell? This is quality? This is the future? No! So when people tell me that ME3 story is decent, but for that attrocious ending, i feel as if I were called to the blackboard and show that it's in fact poorly written and executed, and therefore it's a model for nothing. Sure, it has good parts, it has its moments, but that's just it.

But I'd prefer a game with good gameplay over story any day. I can get a good story from a novel. Similar holds for movies. Best for visualization, not story.

And here is the place we simply misunderstand each other. If you think that I favour story over gameplay you are dead wrong. What I advocate is something reverse - a complete integration of storytelling within the framework of gameplay. In other words, I don't want to see non-interactive cutscenes, dialogue wheels, responses that lead to the same outcome, fake choices and one facet of gameplay (e.g. combat) being completely divorced from another - at least in RPGs.

I would like to see more interaction, practical utilisation of acquired skills in every facet of gameplay (e.g. say you play as a biotic and acquired Lift ability - now during dialogue while making a threat you can use it on your interlocutor to make yourself more… persuassive), ability to interact with the world however you want (within reasonable constraints), the game setting responding to what you do in believeable fashion. That level of interactivity would strongly reinforce story and story telling immensely. We've already had something akin to that in Fallouts and Arcanum - I fail to see anything like that in modern Bioware games.

It's great when you can get it all in a game, but I've rarely seen it. Realism is a bummer…

Yes, but that's no reason not to try, or worse… accept mediocrity and intellectual poverty as quality.

One more thing - I don't believe games can reach Dostoyevski's level of storytelling - at least in the next 50 years. The reasons are countless and their name is legion. However, I am convinced that there's a distinct chance of them achieving the level of Pratchett, Gaiman, Pullman, Frank Herbert, Ursula K. LeGuin and so on. And yes, I know that's a poor analogy, because of the things I said before.
 
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I'm not sure why (some) ppl claim mass effect 3 story sucks.
It simply doesn't suck and it's great.

Plot holes? In a big game with choices it's not a surprise to see them, so what? As long as they don't mess anything too much, we'll spot those in every game. Comparing a game with choices with novels it an utter fail, Frank Herbert's books don't contain chapters of what would happen if someone did something else instead of what's written.

The whole space travel/repeating history/sci-fi thing sucks? Your problem if you lack imagination, not only that it doesn't suck but it's brought to a high level in ME3.

Characters/relationships/personalities didn't get enough space in the game? Dunno why you think that, on my side all of them got perfect amount of "communication".

Main story and side stories are all junk? Again I can only disagree as everything simply feels logical and equally important so if there wasn't a journal note "priority" I'd never be able to say something is a part of the main story and something is just to bring up some more lore.

And finally - the ending. It's definetly the worst part of the game, in fact the only part of the game that sucks. Gameplaywise, roleplaywise and storywise. I've posted it in my previous post, it's rushed and unpolished.

I'll agree with anyone who says that the ending is poor because:
1. Why "the god" is a human child and not asari, prothean, whatever else child
2. Why the illusive man represents blue choice and anderson red choice if it's logical to be vice versa
3. Why all your choices in the game have so little impact in the end and whatever you do, mass relays are doomed
4. Why Catalyst's solution assumes organics always want to destroy non-organics - when you (ok, me) saved geth from extinction (so Tali jumped from a cliff) and one of my crewmembers is AI - not only that, but you can't tell this to Catalyst to prove him wrong
5. What the hell was Normandy trying to do in the "subspace stream" while mass relays were being destroyed - shouldn't that ship be on earth fighting?
6. Why London in yet another game has to be a place where "Hellgate" appears? Why not Johanesbuurg or some other not-so-popular capital?
7. Why Krogan Battlemaster wants to buy Australia when recently you may get Greece for cheap on ebay (check the politically non-correct humor thread on this forum)?
8. Why the whole ending feels like a result of a false perception, indoctrination in fact, but if was an indoctrination how come it's not explained and also what's the point of adding some anonymous "storytelling" Stargazer after credits?
9. etc, etc, about the endings design I could number even more bad made stuff

But you can't say that the whole game and the whole story is lame just because of the poor ending design! And then to prove your point, you put Dostojevski (with j, not y) inside your post. It's like mixing apples and peaches.
 
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I'm sure in the next 100 years there will be a game (probably an RPG) that can rival the classics of literature in its writing. Few movies have to date. But I am not holding my breathe.... In the meantime there are plenty of video games with fun gameplay that don't have to impress me with good story.
 
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I'm not sure why (some) ppl claim mass effect 3 story sucks.
It simply doesn't suck and it's great.

Plot holes? In a big game with choices it's not a surprise to see them, so what? As long as they don't mess anything too much, we'll spot those in every game. Comparing a game with choices with novels it an utter fail, Frank Herbert's books don't contain chapters of what would happen if someone did something else instead of what's written.

The whole space travel/repeating history/sci-fi thing sucks? Your problem if you lack imagination, not only that it doesn't suck but it's brought to a high level in ME3.

Characters/relationships/personalities didn't get enough space in the game? Dunno why you think that, on my side all of them got perfect amount of "communication".

Main story and side stories are all junk? Again I can only disagree as everything simply feels logical and equally important so if there wasn't a journal note "priority" I'd never be able to say something is a part of the main story and something is just to bring up some more lore.

And finally - the ending. It's definetly the worst part of the game, in fact the only part of the game that sucks. Gameplaywise, roleplaywise and storywise. I've posted it in my previous post, it's rushed and unpolished.

I'll agree with anyone who says that the ending is poor because:
1. Why "the god" is a human child and not asari, prothean, whatever else child
2. Why the illusive man represents blue choice and anderson red choice if it's logical to be vice versa
3. Why all your choices in the game have so little impact in the end and whatever you do, mass relays are doomed
4. Why Catalyst's solution assumes organics always want to destroy non-organics - when you (ok, me) saved geth from extinction (so Tali jumped from a cliff) and one of my crewmembers is AI - not only that, but you can't tell this to Catalyst to prove him wrong
5. What the hell was Normandy trying to do in the "subspace stream" while mass relays were being destroyed - shouldn't that ship be on earth fighting?
6. Why London in yet another game has to be a place where "Hellgate" appears? Why not Johanesbuurg or some other not-so-popular capital?
7. Why Krogan Battlemaster wants to buy Australia when recently you may get Greece for cheap on ebay (check the politically non-correct humor thread on this forum)?
8. Why the whole ending feels like a result of a false perception, indoctrination in fact, but if was an indoctrination how come it's not explained and also what's the point of adding some anonymous "storytelling" Stargazer after credits?
9. etc, etc, about the endings design I could number even more bad made stuff

But you can't say that the whole game and the whole story is lame just because of the poor ending design! And then to prove your point, you put Dostojevski (with j, not y) inside your post. It's like mixing apples and peaches.
I'm not exactly sure how you can go from ME3 story doesn't suck to the ending does suck in the same post. If the ending is terrible it brings the whole story down. There are huge plot holes and things that don't make sense in the ME series. People should have seen this coming with ME2 where your choices didn't matter. But somehow in ME3 Bioware made it worse.

Those things you list off are the reason people are upset. Not just because there is not a "happy" ending. Your choices don't matter and the story was pretty weak in ME2 and gets even weaker in ME3 where it decides to throw in a lot of plot holes and cheesy cinematics.

The Normandy flying off and crash landing was just a cheap stunt Bioware pulled so they could put a DLC mission on that planet.
 
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I'm in almost complete agreement with mrowakus here. '


There is one thing though that I feel that Bioware did really well with the Mass Effect series, and that was the fact that they created a lot of characters that were very easy to like. People cared about many of the characters that you met in Mass effect, heck, I cared about many of them (which is more than I can say about characters from many books that I've read). And this is probably a large part of the reason why Mass Effect became so popular. It was not the fight against the reapers that mattered, nor was it the Babylon 5-style diplomacy, all of that was just a backdrop, the important bit was the characters, and the emotional attachment that a lot of people got to them.

I have not played Mass Effect 3 yet (not had the money for the game, and EA have created a buggy localized website with a javascript that won't allow me to register, so no Origin for me), so my comment is based on ME 1 & 2.
 
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