Random or fixed loot?

coaster

Utarg of Utarg
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Just continuing a discussion which began in the RPG environments thread…

Do you prefer loot in RPGs to be fixed, and hand placed? Or wholly random? Or a mixture of the two (eg random for low/medium value loot, fixed for high level items)?

Personally I can live with randomness for general stuff (and even welcome it) but for high level items, I prefer it to be hand placed. Even more preferable, I'd like the very high level hand placed stuff to be tied to a story/quest - a classic example being the Ring of Gaxx in Baldur's Gate 2.

In terms of the system which triggered this discussion, the way it was done in G3 (certain hard to get to chests giving access to a high level loot list, with the list being fixed in order and accessed sequentially by the number of chests opened) did encourage exploration to find the chests, but if you wanted the item which was last on the list, you had to find every single chest of that type in the game, which was a pain.

What would be your ideal system? Is there any game which has implemented this?
 
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That remind me of my old PnP days! We was playing AD&D, and then we begun to play most DM’s used the random loot table in their Campaign, including myself. Because of this, then the players reach level 9-10 or so, they would light up as a Christmas Tree, if a Detect Magic was cast. This usual ended up whit serious balance problems then they reach level 12-14, as the players was a unstoppable five mans army.

I then created my own World/Campaign, named Chaos Blade, there magic items was very rare. Instead of using a random list, the players found only magic items rarely, and most was unique weapons/item that I had created and put in the Campaign. While in other Campaign +3 weapons was sold or just throw away, in my Campaign the players was jumping whit joys, if they found something that powerful.

That bring me to the question, I do like random loot, as long it just minor items, but I think a cRPG is boring if there a non unique weapons to be found, and the sense of reward is much bigger, if you really “work” hard to get it, rather that just found it on a random pack of critters. So im in your boat “Random for low/medium loot, fixed for high level loot“
 
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Baldur's Gate and Gothic both nailed it in my opinion, with fixed loot and a "what you see is what you get" approach - if you knock down someone with a Sword of Awesomeness, you get that sword.

I love exploring in such worlds as it means you can find some specifically placed loot in dangerous places, instead of finding the Amulet of Total Annihilation from a random goblin.

Also, I don't just want "a random item of certain power" from some big, bad monster - often it's not even useful for the class I'm playing, nor does it make any sense that I found it in that specific location.

The so-called "exceitement" and "increased replayvalue" of random loot is something I've never experienced. It might work for people who love grinding in Diablo, but in most RPGs I just can't understand why it's sometimes preferred.
 
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Always random loot obviously scores plus points for unpredictability and replay value boost and it also forces player to come up with different strategies depending on what loot was acquired, making the gameplay more dynamic.
For it to work, however, some kind of a loot pool system is necessary.
Such loot system should ensure believability (loot tables based on area and encounter type) and provide sensible risk/reward ratio (loot tables based on area and encounter difficulty) as well.
With a system where no item has its place, no item is tightly bound to its bearer/environment, games feel more shallow and loose part of the cRPG heart in the process.

Fixed loot system usually results in overall better integrity, items themselves being more interesting and scenarios such as combat encounter designed around item itself being used against player are more viable. For such system to work, appropriate risk/reward ratio and careful area design and item placement (hidden spots etc) is a necessity. G2:NotR did a good job with this.
To make fixed system optimal, other cRPG mechanics are needed imo.
Character development and quest design especially. Making loot obtainable only by certain character type(s) and dependent on the way player proceeds through quests should easily elevate fixed loot system over the random one.

Having best of both worlds, aka "handcraftedness" of fixed loot and unpredictability of random loot, seems like a win/win scenario to me but if I had too choose, fixed system it is because it overall fits fully fledged and more complex cRPGs better, and those are my favourite type of cRPGs :).
The more random approach is better fit for dungeon crawlers, but even there the combination of both is preferable. Wizardry 8 did this best.
 
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Also, I don't just want "a random item of certain power" from some big, bad monster - often it's not even useful for the class I'm playing, nor does it make any sense that I found it in that specific location.

That´s kinda the point, isn´t it? The world shouldn´t revolve around player after all. You get super duper artifact that isn´t useful for you character(s), you sell it.
You get one that is useful, great, another boon for your tactical arsenal.
Well thought out random loot system is one of the good ways how to preserve element of surprise for replays. It also encourages more natural way of playing (instead of beelining for Belm+2 right away) and being forced to adjust tactics, or even characters, on the fly is exciting in my book.

Specifically placed or used-by-enemy loot is great, but the element of surprise is gone upon replays.
Thus, for me, the ideal system is both combined.
Basic example: powerful wizard always has (and uses against player) staff of demon summoning, plus in his lair there is a bookcase and a chest that contain random high level loot chosen in accordance to circumstances, like magic scrolls, rings, amulets etc. Maybe you already have these or don´t need them, maybe you do. On replay, you´re in for a surprise either way and that´s what counts.

The so-called "exceitement" and "increased replayvalue" of random loot is something I've never experienced. It might work for people who love grinding in Diablo, but in most RPGs I just can't understand why it's sometimes preferred.

As I implicated above, it´s about element of surprise and being forced to adjust tactics on the fly. For one playthrough, random loot element is more-or-less insignificant but it adds to freshness of subsequent runs.
Unless you´re a type of gamer who likes to plan replays from start to finish before playing itelf, of course :).

Of course that game´s replay value doesn´t stand or fall with its loot system, but it can help.

Btw, I too think BG2¨s loot system is one of the best, but the game being so huge has a lot to do with it.
Anyone who plans to replay BG2 for umpteenth time should give Item Randomizer a try.
The mod leaves story-tied items like Ring of Gaxx where they are, while randomizing placement of all the other more powerful ones.
It´s done very sensibly, so player won´t get Amulet of Total Annihilation from a random goblin and it definitely puts a positively new spin on the game, especially if difficulty mods, are installed ( Sword Coast Stratagems II being by far the best).
It´s not perfect because it randomizes few items that imo shouldn´t be, but it´s definitely worth a try.
 
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That´s kinda the point, isn´t it? The world shouldn´t revolve around player after all. You get super duper artifact that isn´t useful for you character(s), you sell it.
You get one that is useful, great, another boon for your tactical arsenal.
Well thought out random loot system is one of the good ways how to preserve element of surprise for replays. It also encourages more natural way of playing (instead of beelining for Belm+2 right away) and being forced to adjust tactics, or even characters, on the fly is exciting in my book.

That's all good'n dandy, but it works better in games like Diablo than Baldur's Gate - when you do a dozen reloads to finally bring down Firkraag, you *want* Carsomyr to pop up or it just won't be worth the effort. This is not Diablo where "there's a certain drop chance" and then you just grind the boss again untill you get something. Would blow to make a Paladin only to never get Carsomyr, or a Katana dual-wielder and never get Celestial Fury.

Basically, hand placed loot means it's not down to luck whether or not you get useful items. I've experienced games with random loot where my character ended up seriously undergeared because I kept being unlucky with drops. If you have some sort of advanced character creation system in place, allowing you to make - say, a two handed mace based warrior - you have to actually get a half-decent mace somewhere in the game, or the game has just royally screwed you by allowing you to build a character that is not viable.

Like I said, in games like Diablo where there's loot all over the place and you can repeat boss kills over and over untill you get something, random loot works just fine. However, it just won't work serious RPGs, as the challenging bosses are so far inbetween, and you never get a second chance.

I can't think of a single RPG where such a system has worked out better than a fixed loot system.

Edit: Gothic 3 is an example of a bad loot system, especially compared to Gothic 1 and 2 where the loot system was great. Basically, every item you got from enemies is "worn", thus doing rubbish damage, and most major items happen to be in so-called "Old Chests", but only once you have unlocked a certain amount. The rest is random. One of the first times I played through Gothic 3, I completed it with a weapon I got about an hour into the game, because I was unlucky with drops and simply never found a replacement. 100 hours of gaming, 99 of which I was using the same, boring, rubbish weapon due to a bad loot system. That's just plain daft.
 
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Basically, hand placed loot means it's not down to luck whether or not you get useful items. I've experienced games with random loot where my character ended up seriously undergeared because I kept being unlucky with drops. If you have some sort of advanced character creation system in place, allowing you to make - say, a two handed mace based warrior - you have to actually get a half-decent mace somewhere in the game, or the game has just royally screwed you by allowing you to build a character that is not viable.

That´s simply bad design then.

Party based games should employ loot system rich enough that one character gimped item-wise shouldn´t hurt much and should basically be a c'est la vie affair that ideally encourages player to use such character in different ways. The real problem is when such build is never viable, which is kinda the case of BG2´s katana wielder - without Celestial Fury such character is always severely gimped, while he´s always overpowered with it. One specific item shouldn´t make or break a character build anyway.

In the case of single char cRPGs, ideally devs should either ensure that every build will be eventually provided with reasonable loot, or, if the loot is largely randomized, make char development system flexible enough so that player can accommodate according to circumstances.
System in first two Gothics works really well, but once you´ve played these games thoroughly once, there isn´t really much in the way of surprise. And btw, in G2:NotR you definitely can end up with a gimped character if you play a mage, but admittedly that´s probably not really a loot problem.

I can't think of a single RPG where such a system has worked out better than a fixed loot system.

Well, me neither, as I previously noted, I too prefer fixed over random, but I simply consider the well thought out implementation of both to be the best.
At least in theory :).
My examples of games where it worked well, though not perfectly, would be Wizardry 8, BG2 with mentioned Item Randomizer and Oblivion with FCOM.
 
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I agree with both of you, actually.

But it's not about a game being designed for non-optimal characters, it's that optimal characters are FUN to make, if you're into that sort of thing.

Obviously, the issue is that we're too aware of what goes on behind the scenes, and the fact that we're privvy to information that used to be for the developers only.

These days, the players know more about the game than the designers do, because the designers deal with theory more than practice.

Games like WoW and Diablo 2 - showed us that as great as those games were, they were never balanced properly, and they never will be. Players will always figure out the loopholes and the exploits - because there are millions of them, and they're sharing information about a game they're playing for hours every single day.

So, droplists and theorycrafting means it's an incredibly hard job for a developer/designer to balance loot - but I personally think it can be done, and I know how I would do it.

You need to combine the element of suprise, with certain assured rewards - but you also need to understand your own game. As Maylander says, Diablo and Baldur's Gate are vastly different games, because the first is meant for indefinite replays and the latter is basically a one-time thing, with a much stronger focus on the story.

But both games lend themselves well to min-max'ing - and players will want to know how powerful they can become, and they will want the best loot. That's just a kind of player that will always be around, and you can count myself among them.

It's not enough to handplace loot in a game like BG - because even upon the first playthrough of the game - it will mean you have to wait with the most powerful stuff towards the end. The thing is, though, that when you're building a powerful character - you want to enjoy him for large parts of the game. You don't want to make the player wait until the end-game with giving him the good stuff, he has to have a chance at finding it during the earlier stages. That's where random loot can be helpful to a designer, because even if the player finds a powerful item - there's always going to be the chance of more power, later on. A typical mistake is that designers think all battles must be challenging, and they forget that there are different kinds of challenges - even within battles. Players that focus on creating powerful characters and work hard on that, should be rewarded by BEING powerful - at least to a certain extent.

What you want to do, though, is ENSURE that the handplaced loot is unique and has certain powers that can't be had with random loot. Not necessarily MORE powerful, just unique.

That's a mistake I've seen in Diablo and other games of a similar nature, where even unique items have some limited random stats - which, to me, works AGAINST the idea of unique items. I'm a huge fan of items having lore, and a reason for being where they are. The more backdrop, the cooler the item. Sometimes even a less powerful item is cooler, just because it's so steeped in lore.

Balancing power for random loot and handplaced loot, is very hard - but it's about the underlying system and your own understanding of it, as a designer. If you don't understand your system in-depth, you're going to be placing loot where it shouldn't be. People tend to forget this, but balance in general is probably THE hardest part of any design, especially in a competitive game. It seems to me that most game designers today, even the best ones, just don't focus enough on their systems and they tend to downplay what it means to not fully comprehend what outcomes there can be.

Either that, or they go the Bioware route and simplify everything, because they don't WANT to deal with complexity. That's even worse.

That's not so bad in a singleplayer game, but in a competitive environment like an MMO, I don't understand why they're not focusing on these things in a much bigger way - but then again, there's a huge disparity between actual balance and perceived balance ;)

Loot design in MMOs is so horribly bad, and it's like they either choose between boring loot where loot doesn't matter, and loot being the driving force behind the entire game - meaning players need to grind eternally for it. I like LOTRO's idea of the legendary loot that slowly builds in power, but I think the implementation is flawed - and the game is boring in terms of combat, anyway. Loot should be available to everyone willing to work at getting it, but for heaven's sake don't make it like a real job. Then again, MMOs are so stagnant in terms of design, I could go on for ages.

But I digress.

In any kind of CRPG - I want the combination of random loot and handplaced loot. Handplaced loot, not so much for power, but to give the player a sensation of history and immersion. Loot should be placed in a reasonably logical fashion, and I don't want rats dropping swords. I don't fret about such things, but it would be nice if everything made sense.

It would be perfect if they could make ENOUGH handplaced encounters with handplaced loot, to make the game eternally fresh. But that's not feasible - especially not in a game like Diablo. So in such a game, random loot probably needs to be there. In a storybased game, handplaced loot can suffice - but I personally prefer having a chance of finding stuff that I can't predict, and that I can't plan ahead for. I also think it keeps the game fresh, and even story-focused games can be replayed numerous times.

But in the end, I don't think of this as much as random vs fixed, but about the implementation of said systems. Random loot isn't working if all you find is worthless junk. Diablo 2 was really bad in that way - in my opinion - but that's probably because it was designed as a multiplayer experience - and on Battle.net you were meant to trade for stuff. That's great, but not if you're playing alone endlessly to find something you can use. That's when you need to understand your game, and you need to give your player an opportunity to work towards powerful loot - if he can't find it at random.

But if you craft your system intelligently, and ensure it remains relatively opaque to most players, you CAN make random loot work and make it truly exciting. All that is about balance and what kind of experience you want to give the player. But I think it's best to give them the opportunity to work towards power when random stuff isn't cutting it. Crafting, being an obvious way.

When going the 100% fixed route, I suppose it's really about taking every single build into consideration, and on top of that - you need to make the game flow. If you hide the good stuff until the end, people will miss the experience of being powerful - and it's my opinion that they need to get that experience in the middle stages, at the latest. It's no good having only a single truly powerful Katana and then letting it be in a chest during the very end game. That's stupid. So, not only do you need plenty of diversity, you also need that diversity to be apparent THROUGHOUT the game, and that's a lot of work - if you want fixed loot to make sense. That means hundreds of meaningful encounters - and designing them is HARD work. That's why I think random loot can be very helpful, even in a story-oriented game like BG and its ilk.
 
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Arghhh DArtagnan crit Phonix, whit WALL of TEXT :D

When going the 100% fixed route, I suppose it's really about taking every single build into consideration, and on top of that - you need to make the game flow. If you hide the good stuff until the end, people will miss the experience of being powerful - and it's my opinion that they need to get that experience in the middle stages, at the latest. It's no good having only a single truly powerful Katana and then letting it be in a chest during the very end game. That's stupid. So, not only do you need plenty of diversity, you also need that diversity to be apparent THROUGHOUT the game, and that's a lot of work - if you want fixed loot to make sense. That means hundreds of meaningful encounters - and designing them is HARD work. That's why I think random loot can be very helpful, even in a story-oriented game like BG and its ilk.

I actual agree whit you here, that’s the fun in getting some powerful weapons, if you only have fun whit them the last 5 minute of a game?
 
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Edit: Gothic 3 is an example of a bad loot system, especially compared to Gothic 1 and 2 where the loot system was great. Basically, every item you got from enemies is "worn", thus doing rubbish damage, and most major items happen to be in so-called "Old Chests", but only once you have unlocked a certain amount. The rest is random. One of the first times I played through Gothic 3, I completed it with a weapon I got about an hour into the game, because I was unlucky with drops and simply never found a replacement. 100 hours of gaming, 99 of which I was using the same, boring, rubbish weapon due to a bad loot system. That's just plain daft.

Actually, I think the basic idea is very good - the system actually rewards exploration instead of rewarding knowledge from previous playthroughs (ie. beelining for the good stuff). Sure, perhaps not all items should have been "worn" and maybe there should have been a little less of a random element somewhere out there, but the underlying idea - in my opinion - is great.
 
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As usual I mostly agree with Maylander, even if I can see a point to having droplists in a game where loot drops are plenty (and the law of large numbers will make sure that you find SOMETHING useful). M&M VI-VIII had random loot scaled to the level of the enemy or chest and it worked well. So I stand somewhere between that and fixed loot.

You guys havent mentioned one major dislike I have though:

Having tonnes of crap loot that makes you wade through tonnes of barrels and chest full of fluff and apples to get to a few worthwhile items (Drakensang, NWN 1 OC spring to mind). For the sake of simple user friendliness it would be better to get rid of all the superfluous containers and simply change the gold distribution instead.

EDIT: G3 ties with Oblivion for the dumbest loot system IMHO. It is impossible to tell which is worst: Fixed loot tied to how many chests you have opened, or semi-fixed "special" quest rewards that are scaled to your level when you complete the quest... Imagine killing a level-scaled Firkragg too early and getting Carsomyr +1 as a reward in BG2 :D
 
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Personally, I'd make random or fixed loot dependent of the environment where it could be found. Or the enemies wich actually live there.
 
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I don't care if it's random or not, as long as it's not Monty Haul. I like magic items to be important, but scarce. Guess that's why I'm not a fan of Diablo style games.
 
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I don't care if it's random or not, as long as it's not Monty Haul. I like magic items to be important, but scarce. Guess that's why I'm not a fan of Diablo style games.

Amen to that. That's one of the reason why I'm big fan of Baldur's Gate 1. Every magic item is special and you won't find those from a random barrel like in NWN1!!

Same goes for Gothic 1 and 2. I remember one time how thrilled I was when I discovered one of the hidden caves in Gothic 2. There I encouter group of deadly skeletons and I knew there has to be something special behind the skeletons, so I struggled quite some time to beat them. I died several times and one point I was so frustrated that I was very close throw my keyboard against the wall! Then finally I beat the last skeleton and dwelled deeper in the cave and there was a beautiful beam of light coming into cave. And there lied my reward and not some randon loot…

181282.jpeg

… the Dragon Slicer.


Some kind of hybrid between random and fixed might the best, but otherwise I'm leaning towards to fixed. At least most RPG games I've liked so far have a fixed loot, like Gothic, Baldur's Gate etc. Though I enjoyed games like Diablo and Titan Quest for sometime, they haven't felt like real rpg games.
 
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I would think a combination of the two would be best, with the randomness coming from all the monsters, and the fixed loot coming from an extremely difficult to beat boss, or an extremely well-hidden, difficult to access secret area. There is nothing I love more than when you fight a group of monsters, and seeing that purple, green, or blue color, or what have you, pick it up, and it's an amazing find for your character.On the other hand, there is nothing I hate more in a game than to find a hidden dungeon, go through it, kill a boss and ending up with absolute crap. I would much rather end up with something I can't use, a staff drops and you're a warrior, for instance, than with a pile of junk that does no character no good whatsoever. If you're going to have a large world to explore, make sure there is a reason to explore.
 
Random is only good for replayability or because of a lack of designer/programmer time/ability.

I prefer handcrafted loot and encounters by talented people.
 
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Random can mean different things. For example you can get a random superspecial object, but each of the objects are handcrafted….

Or none of the objects are handcrafter, but they are placed by hand……


IMHO the worst thing about randomly generated objects is they don't make much sense sometimes, superioror cursed hat of the rabit + 5000 in jumping skill…. - 5000 walking speed :S

However I don't have a problem with handcrafted object, randomly placed, acctually I much prefer that, unless it is some story specific reason for an object to be in a defined place.
 
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