Could We Have Been Lied To? (genesis 1-3)

falafel said:

Yeah no doubt, I think that education is the only way that'll have a chance of happening. That and maybe a world with enough resources for everyone.

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Places such as Texas work really hard on breaking down their education system atm. They try their best to obfuscate and distort natural science, but now they have also begin a heavy rally for historical revisionism, so that history taught in schools will be their own fictional version rather than based on historical evidence.

Last year the resolution 888 made the same attempt to control historical research and design what a historian was allowed to say. Basically it wanted to enforce revisionist info made up by Christian nationalists. Thanks to the massive feedback however, res 888 isn't currently moving forward.

Design what they teach in school, and you can control the world.

JemyM said:

Design what they teach in school, and you can control the world.

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I agree; it reminds of a line from Leibniz (1646–1716):

Make me the master of education, and I will undertake to change the world.

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zoro said:

I agree; it reminds of a line from Leibniz (1646–1716):

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And Goebbels:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

JemyM said:

Places such as Texas work really hard on breaking down their education system atm. They try their best to obfuscate and distort natural science, but now they have also begin a heavy rally for historical revisionism, so that history taught in schools will be their own fictional version rather than based on historical evidence.

Last year the resolution 888 made the same attempt to control historical research and design what a historian was allowed to say. Basically it wanted to enforce revisionist info made up by Christian nationalists. Thanks to the massive feedback however, res 888 isn't currently moving forward.

Design what they teach in school, and you can control the world.

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I saw this on the news the other night and it appalled me. One of the resolutions is to include televangelist Billy Graham as one of "the greatest historical figures' and exclude Cesar Chavez, who singlehandedly made huge progress in getting migrant workers a living wage through peaceful means--I think they have him confused with Hugo Chavez ( )The long-time head of the science curriculum for the TEA had to resign in 2007 because she was accused of "giving the appearance of" opposing the teaching of creationism.

They seem absolutely nakedly bent on creating an underclass of people that will believe anything the propaganda tells them and actually know nothing. Between that and education funding being ruthlessly cut in many states because of the recession, the future of this country could be very scary.

The sad thing is Texas is a HUGE school textbook market, so changes in Texas public curricula will affect every other school district as well

Interesting and mostly on-topic factoid about Chavez and why he's so threatening to these people--he was not white, he was an evil and dreaded 'community organizer' and on top of that had the effrontery to read actual books:

Later in life, education became César's focus. The walls of his office in Keene, California (United Farm Worker headquarters) were lined with hundreds of books ranging in subject from philosophy, economics, cooperatives, and unions, to biographies of Gandhi and the Kennedys.

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I bet Billy Graham had a library full of....The Holy Bible.

That last comment is beneath you Mags!! BG does have an extensive library and it's NOT just copies of the Bible. I have one too, and there'd be over 3000 non-religious books in it!!

Sorry, Corwin. Didn't mean to be offensive, I just don't see Billy Graham as much of an intellectual, but I will grant you that he was ethically a cut above most televangelists, and I credit him with more sincerity than most. He also gets points for his stand on segregation. But one of the greatest historical 'transformational' figures? Not so much,imo.

magerette said:

Sorry, Corwin. Didn't mean to be offensive, I just don't see Billy Graham as much of an intellectual, but I will grant you that he was ethically a cut above most televangelists, and I credit him with more sincerity than most. He also gets points for his stand on segregation. But one of the greatest historical 'transformational' figures? Not so much,imo.

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What's so special about this guy? Seems to be same kind of half-nazi as the rest of the Christian extremists. Give enough time, Christianity can corrupt even the best people with this crap.

JM, as usual, I find your comments offensive. Linking Christians and Nazis is not acceptable in my book. While I don't agree with everything BG says, I certainly wouldn't group him with the scum of televangelists currently on TV. He is a highly ethical man for whom I have great respect. I don't judge people based on their religious beliefs, or lack of them!!

Corwin said:

JM, as usual, I find your comments offensive. Linking Christians and Nazis is not acceptable in my book. While I don't agree with everything BG says, I certainly wouldn't group him with the scum of televangelists currently on TV. He is a highly ethical man for whom I have great respect. I don't judge people based on their religious beliefs, or lack of them!!

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As someone as well read on the bible as you claim to be, your post was unnecessary. If you want to accuse anyone of lying, then accuse the journalist who wrote the article, not me. If he was an ethical man, then the bible evidently corrupted him, just like it corrupted many many good and well meaning people in the past.

According to the article he have been inspired by the bible to believe that the Jews are the synagogue of Satan. We who know the bible even know the quote, Revelation 2:9, and we also know the passage that started it all in Matthew 27:25, and we know the prophecy of Gods punishment in 1 Thessalonian's 2:14-16.

You may find my comments challenging the idols you used to like. You may even have difficulties to accept truth. But truth can never be offensive. You as an academic should know this.

Here's a book you might find interesting Corwin: The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945. It's written by a historian and covers some of the relationship between protestant Christianity and Nazism, how they fit well together and how Christianity was the inspiration for anti-judaism in nazi germany.

JemyM said:

Here's a book you might find interesting Corwin: The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945. It's written by a historian and covers some of the relationship between protestant Christianity and Nazism, how they fit well together and how Christianity was the inspiration for anti-judaism in nazi germany.

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You mean like Martin Luther's Von den Juden und ihren Lügen? Complete with eight point plan to get rid of the Jews:

Martin Luther said:

1. "First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..."
2. "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ..."
3. "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. ..."
4. "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ..."
5. "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ..."
6. "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them. ... Such money should now be used in ... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [a certain amount]..."
7. "Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."
8. "If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs."

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At risk of receiving a 'no true Scotsman' attack, a Christian should never be anti the Jews!! They are still God's chosen people. They are still a part of God's plan and are still under His original Covenant. I object to people using and often twisting Christianity to suit a personal agenda. Hitler was probably an Atheist, though he seemed to have support from the Catholics!!??!! Mis-used, the Bible can appear to support almost any position; as a Hermeneutical scholar, I abhor that misuse whether by so called historians, or modern televangelists!!

Corwin said:

At risk of receiving a 'no true Scotsman' attack, a Christian should never be anti the Jews!! They are still God's chosen people. They are still a part of God's plan and are still under His original Covenant. I object to people using and often twisting Christianity to suit a personal agenda. Mis-used, the Bible can appear to support almost any position; as a Hermeneutical scholar, I abhor that misuse whether by so called historians, or modern televangelists!!

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When I refer to Christianity I refer to Christian writings, the Christian tradition and things done in the name of Christianity. As one who take history seriously I accept that there are no absolute interpretion of any historical document, even the bible which is a particulary contradictory document. Forming a movement on a such document have lead to a situation in which the only thing two Christians might have in common is the label they use. The idea that the Jews are still ok and the idea that the Jews are to be punished for their crime against God can both be supported by the bible, and having put them next to one another I have to say that it appears as if the 2nd interpretion is more supported than the first one.

Like the article I pointed to, it appears like BG agrees with me.

Like so many before you, you make the mistake to believe that there's one interpretion, and it's yours. I have heard the right version of Christianity told to me by loads of disagreeing people in the past so I know that one thing Christians tend to have in common is that they believe their version of Christianity is the right one. What you do is to seek out passages that gives strength to your values that you got socialized into like the rest of us.

Corwin said:

Hitler was probably an Atheist, though he seemed to have support from the Catholics!!??!!

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By all records kept, Hitler appears to have been about as Christian as the rest of germany at that time. There are even some records that supports that he was a creationist. Nazism was a conservative nationalist movement and shared most of the traits that is used by modern nationalists.

Corwin said:

At risk of receiving a 'no true Scotsman' attack, a Christian should never be anti the Jews!! They are still God's chosen people. They are still a part of God's plan and are still under His original Covenant. I object to people using and often twisting Christianity to suit a personal agenda. Hitler was probably an Atheist, though he seemed to have support from the Catholics!!??!! Mis-used, the Bible can appear to support almost any position; as a Hermeneutical scholar, I abhor that misuse whether by so called historians, or modern televangelists!!

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You need to understand its not directly an attack against Christianity, Corwin.

I don't think Hitler reflects on Christianity, just like I don't think Mao or Stalin reflect upon Atheism.

Corwin said:

They are still God's chosen people.

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Why would anyone believe that Jews are so *special* above all others? I can understand ethnic and religious Jews on account of vanity or wishful thinking, but why non Jews? Just because the book says so?

Also, what does that even mean, what does this arbitrary designation do for the Jews? Do they get a little extra salvation, or perhaps some sort of consolation prize for not accepting Jesus, maybe a kinder gentler area of Hell to call their own?

Corwin said:

At risk of receiving a 'no true Scotsman' attack, a Christian should never be anti the Jews!! They are still God's chosen people. They are still a part of God's plan and are still under His original Covenant.

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That strikes me as a terribly shabby reason not to be anti-Semitic. Would it be OK for a Christian to be, say, anti-Uighur because the Bible makes no mention of the Uighurs? Hardly.

If there is a universal moral value, it should be the value of every human life, regardless of race, color, or creed -- or lack thereof.

And, for the record, I don't find that moral value incompatible with Christianity -- even if there are plenty of (self-described) Christians who don't (appear to) live by it.

Rithrandil said:

You need to understand its not directly an attack against Christianity, Corwin. I don't think Hitler reflects on Christianity, just like I don't think Mao or Stalin reflect upon Atheism.

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Actually, the expression "attack against Christianity" might be true in this regard. Christianity, unlike Christians, is just a set of virtual ideas, not human beings, and the attempt to demolish an idea might be considered an "attack" upon that idea. Rather than saying that's a bad thing, or offensive, one should call it by it's true name; democracy.

Whether Hitler reflected on Christianity or not, there are plenty of quotes that suggest he did. The entire notion that Hitler was against Christianity spawns from an American mistranslation of Hitlers Table Talk (Trevor-Roper) that makes some very favorable changes to the German original, like changing a quote that challenges the Catholic ideas on communion to sound like an attack on Christianity as a whole, and the removal of a creationist argument in which Hitler disagrees with evolution.

Finally, atheism is just a label on what you aren't (theist), rather than what you are. Since Mao and Stalin were communists they probably spent more time pondering about communism. Christians probably doesn't reflect more on their own religion than non-hinduism.

Prime Junta said:

That strikes me as a terribly shabby reason not to be anti-Semitic. Would it be OK for a Christian to be, say, anti-Uighur because the Bible makes no mention of the Uighurs? Hardly.

If there is a universal moral value, it should be the value of every human life, regardless of race, color, or creed -- or lack thereof.

And, for the record, I don't find that moral value incompatible with Christianity -- even if there are plenty of (self-described) Christians who don't (appear to) live by it.

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PJ, I didn't write that statement as a reson not to be anti-semitic; I totally agree with your PoV that every human being is precious. I wrote it because people were saying the Bible teaches anti-semitism, a position I feel is clearly not Biblical at all. If God says He will make an EVERLASTING covenant with a 'people', then my position is that the covenant still exists. Therefore, they are still His people. Follow the thought and check out what is then said about what He will do for/to those who bless and/or curse the Jews.

Corwin said:

PJ, I didn't write that statement as a reson not to be anti-semitic; I totally agree with your PoV that every human being is precious. I wrote it because people were saying the Bible teaches anti-semitism, a position I feel is clearly not Biblical at all. If God says He will make an EVERLASTING covenant with a 'people', then my position is that the covenant still exists. Therefore, they are still His people. Follow the thought and check out what is then said about what He will do for/to those who bless and/or curse the Jews.

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You aren't a God Corwin, and you aren't alone trying to read a book. Despite your personal opinion on the matter, there are several biblical components that can and have inspired Christian antisemitism and was the main source for antisemitism up to the 2nd world war. The passages that support their view is just as consistent as yours. And it didn't stop with the 2nd world war either, if I remember right, you were speaking well of a guy who made a huge controversy when he begun uttering antisemitic statements directly out of the bible.

And here I must ask you for an explanation. You are either blatantly ignorant about the bible, or you are blatantly dishonest about it. Anyone with a bit of history and a bit of biblical knowledge know exactly what passages the antisemitism is inspired by.

There are the direct declaration of Jews as Satan and that they shall be punished (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 and Revelation 2:9 & 3:9) and the direct command that they shall be "stopped" (Titus 1:10-11).

These are inspired by Jesus words on Jewish scribes and pharisees (Matthew 23:34-36, Luke 11:47-51) and the famous scene where the Jews, and their children, is symbolically blamed for killing Jesus (Matthew 27:25).

But that's not enough. The attitude towards Jews is boosted by the many times Jesus directly challenges the Jewish authority throughout the gospels (Matthew 15:12-14, 16:5-12, 21:12-13, and chapter 23, Mark 11:15-17, 12:38-40, Luke 12:1-3, 16:14-15), and those who doesn't submit to his authority (Matthew 10:11-15, 11:20-24, Luke 10:13-15).

It's also boosted by showing the Jewish authority as a threat against Jesus and his followers;
Matthew 12:9-14, 16:21, 20:17-19, 21:33-46, 26:1-5, 14-16, 47-50, 26:57, 66, 27:1-2, 19-26.
Mark 3:1-6, 8:31, 10:33-34, 12:1-12, 14:1-2, 10-11, 43-49, 64, 15:1, 8-15.
Luke 9:22, 20:9-26, 22:1-6, 52-53, 22:26, 23:5, 23:13-25.
John 5:15-18, 7:1, 10-13, 19-20, 28-34, 8:20, 37-40, 57-59, 10:30-39, 11:45-57, 12:9-11, 18:3-14, 19-24, 28-32, 19:6-7, 12-16. Acts 2:22-23, 3:13, 4:22, 5:17-42, 6:8-15, 7:50-60, 8:1-3, 9:1-2, 9:21, 13:28-29, 50, 14:1-6, 19, 17:5-9, 20:19, 21:11, 22:22-23, 23:2-3, 10, 12-15, 20-21, 27, 24:1-9.