Dragon Age 2 - Jeff Vogel Review

Couchpotato said:

BG1&BG2 are a legend and its a dying rpg genre. If I had the money I would fiance updated rpgs just like them.

DA:O was average but at least it was step in there older games and it gave me hope. Then along came DA 2 and did a complete turn around. Sure it wasn't the same and it was what they promised then they tried to soothe every one fears.

The problem I have is the story. Every choice leads to the same ending. The game is more about your companions and there choices not yours. Your just dragged along. That right there was not what was promised. It was supposed to be about your rise to power. After everything you accomplish I would think the city would be mine. Not a lame ending were you just walk away. But wait the dlc offered in small chunks will finish your story.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an ending wherein you assume the throne, marry Anora, spare Loghain's life, and banish Alistair?

The point I'm trying to make is that the battle against the darkspawn and the Archdemon is a backdrop for a story about a young nation trying to form it's identity. It's the story of the newest Warden, but it's also a story about pragmatism vs. idealism; Loghain's way vs. Cailan's way. There are elements of pre-determination vs. self determination, and several other topics that could be argued for years. As far as the ending goes, it's only the "same" in that you always kill the archdemon. By that logic, you could say that the ending to Fallout is always the same because you always blow up the Mariposa military base. The ending to BG1 is always the same, because you always kill Sarevok. DAO gives you the opportunity to make the "Heroic Sacrifice" wherein you die at the end of the game, but still win.

I always thought that the weakest parts of DAO were in the character customization and inter-party interaction, and those are largely personal preferences. I like a S.P.E.C.I.A.L. type system, where skills and perks are derived from stats, and all stats have a purpose. Dragon Age was very min/max in terms of attributes (Really, what use has any warrior for the "magic" attribute? Why is it even there?) I also felt that DAO was somewhat juvenile and lowbrow in the way it handled dialog between your player and your companions. Save for Shale, who I think should have been in the main campaign instead of Zevran, I thought most of the dialog could have been distilled to, "Buck up!", "You're pretty.", "Being nice is stupid.", or "Let's bone!" Or at least that's the way it felt to me.

Overall, I think that DAO is on par with some of the best work Bioware has ever done, and deserves to be in the same conversation as Baldur's Gate and Fallout, in terms of "How to Make a Great RPG." It had a long enough development time to create and really flesh out the world. It introduced a novel way of looking at magic and mages, which developed an inherent instability and conflict, and, on the PC at least, it looked amazing, save for the ridiculous amount of blood spatter residue. There was as much, if not more, choice and consequence as there was in the classics that we all use as the metric by which to measure all new games.

Bioware has lost a lot of their luster in recent years, and they've made a lot of missteps, particularly I feel, with the changes that were made between Mass Effect 1 and 2, and DAO and DA2. The overall feeling I have is that they're changing their games into hyperkinetic, T&A obsessed splatterfests. I feel like the company philosophy is to get as many fair weather fans from as many gaming genres as possible, instead of sticking with one genre, and having die-hard zealots within it. I think they're especially going overboard with the DLC. But, for all its arrogance and ridiculousness, they showed that they're still capable of knocking socks off, and I think that's what they did with DAO.

I'm not saying that DAO is "teh PERFECT game 10/10!" But let's try to maintain a sense of perspective.

Dhruin said:

Writing is actually one of the things that has improved with modern games - don't confuse gameplay issues with writing.

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Really? Are you saying, that Dragon Age II is better written than say Betrayal at Krondor or Planescape: Torment?

tolknaz said:

Really? Are you saying, that Dragon Age II is better written than say Betrayal at Krondor or Planescape: Torment?

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No. Don't put words into peoples' mouths. I believe he's saying that writing in cRPGs overall has improved. PS:T and BaK are exceptions, not the rule.

Captain Buzzkill said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an ending wherein you assume the throne, marry Anora, spare Loghain's life, and banish Alistair?

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I think that Couch meant choices in DA2 rather than in DA:O...

zahratustra said:

I think that Couch meant choices in DA2 rather than in DA:O…

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Ah…color me corrected, then.

My points about DA:O still stand, however.

tolknaz said:

Really? Are you saying, that Dragon Age II is better written than say Betrayal at Krondor or Planescape: Torment?

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Oh great. You take out two of the best written games (although PS:T would have made an even better book ) of one decade and compare it to all RPGs of another time frame.

Roi Danton said:

Oh great. You take out two of the best written games (although PS:T would have made an even better book ) of one decade and compare it to all RPGs of another time frame.

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No. I was comparing them to the game, that according to some rewiewers represents the pinnacle of RPG writing and storytelling in that "another time frame". I was only comparing the best videogame writing of one decade to the supposed best of another.

http://gamingsrapture.com/wordpress/2011/04/14/dragon-age-2-review-2/
http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/107852
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/8701-Dragon-Age-II-Review.2

each to their own

cuz' while us nerds sit our fat asses on sweaty wheelie chairs thinking about a witty rebuttals or attempt to troll other guys…

..there are actually alot of (stupid) guys who enjoyed this game and dont care what we think

all that effort, all the long posts, all the justifications to other players will never ever matter in a months time.

you could go do something worthwhile but its easier to rage at a shitty gayme designer voice an opinion on a game that will be forgotten.

so much time wasted

SAGO said:

while us nerds sit our fat asses on sweaty wheelie chairs

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Speak for yourself, fatty.

My wheelie chair isn't sweaty!

SAGO said:

you could go do something worthwhile but its easier to rage at a shitty gayme designer voice an opinion on a game that will be forgotten.

so much time wasted

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I don't know, I've had more fun reading this forum than I got out of Da2.

I felt most let down by the main plot of ME2. I really like good Sci Fi but it just felt a bit cheesy.
DA was pretty good but again Tolkein has a lot to answer for, damn him. ;-)

tolknaz said:

Really? Are you saying, that Dragon Age II is better written than say Betrayal at Krondor or Planescape: Torment?

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Nice try -- not to mention that I would count PS:T as modern. OK, so here's my retort:

Vampire: Bloodlines vs Tales of the Unknown: The Bard's Tale.

See how silly this is?

pibbur said:

So, what are your criteria, then?

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One is quite basic, just like a variation in blue must hold blue in it.

It wouldn't really matter if they called it something else, given the fatal flaws of wave-encounters and excessively recycled environments.

If those things weren't there - it might have worked ok as a spin-off, and I'd have paid for it without regret.

But they were there, and it's not a spin-off.

Captain Buzzkill said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an ending wherein you assume the throne, marry Anora, spare Loghain's life, and banish Alistair?

The point I'm trying to make is that the battle against the darkspawn and the Archdemon is a backdrop for a story about a young nation trying to form it's identity. It's the story of the newest Warden, but it's also a story about pragmatism vs. idealism; Loghain's way vs. Cailan's way. There are elements of pre-determination vs. self determination, and several other topics that could be argued for years.

Click to expand...

That is really what you want to see in the story. What are the elements to confirm your points?

From your sentences, you associate Cailan to idealism (he is more a romantic, german trend than an idealist) and Loghain to pragmatism.

Pragmatism supports the use of proven solutions before getting recourse of new recipes. Grey wardens are proven in their fight against the blight. A pragmatic would have valued their addition.

Nothing more to be seen in the bickerings between Cailan and Loghain than the popular meme repeated in ME and that goes beyond Bioware's game that politicians lose wars, not the military. That politics is what makes the military lose. The military wins wars. Politicians lose them. It is a rather strange conception but that is quite popular in the US.
While the Ferelden politicians are entangled into their politician games, the Blight is advancing and it takes military men, warriors to get the situation right, not politics(The Darkspawn are not good recipients to mediation approach in DA:O)
Same meme as in ME.

If indeed the story is about a pragmatic against an idealist, then it is poorly written. Because Loghain is not pragmatic, he is one absorbed by the struggle for power, disregarding anything happening around him not linked to his power claim (the Blight) and focusing on any threat that could disrupt the power claim (Cailan, the nobles, the warden)

SAGO said:

each to their own

cuz' while us nerds sit our fat asses on sweaty wheelie chairs thinking about a witty rebuttals or attempt to troll other guys…

..there are actually alot of (stupid) guys who enjoyed this game and dont care what we think

all that effort, all the long posts, all the justifications to other players will never ever matter in a months time.

you could go do something worthwhile but its easier to rage at a shitty gayme designer voice an opinion on a game that will be forgotten.

so much time wasted

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Right, right. The RPG genre is dying. People wanting to support it have no grip on the outcome. The developpers have the monopoly on production and use the label as they wish. Some players, to conceal their powerlessness, agree with the developpers' stance, nod and label everything thrown at them as RPG.
Voting with your money does not work, developpers are not influenced by that.
It is like wheat bread made with wheat flour. Bakers slowly replace wheat flour with rice flour up to the point the bread is made only with rice flour. But they keep calling it wheat bread.
Sometimes, there is a superior authority stepping in to say the baker to stop their tricks and call their bread rice bread.

For RPG, there is no such superior authority, the developpers will substitute each element of RPG by other elements while keeping to call their games RPG. Players can not influence the trend. Voting with dollars does not work.

I wasn't particularly impressed with DA:O, but DA2 is a joke even compared to that.

"Bioware Presents: A Dude Named Hawke Buys a Big House and Has Wacky Adventures"

Oh man, that game would be so awesome.

ChienAboyeur said:

That is really what you want to see in the story. What are the elements to confirm your points?

From your sentences, you associate Cailan to idealism (he is more a romantic, german trend than an idealist) and Loghain to pragmatism.

Pragmatism supports the use of proven solutions before getting recourse of new recipes. Grey wardens are proven in their fight against the blight. A pragmatic would have valued their addition.

Nothing more to be seen in the bickerings between Cailan and Loghain than the popular meme repeated in ME and that goes beyond Bioware's game that politicians lose wars, not the military. That politics is what makes the military lose. The military wins wars. Politicians lose them. It is a rather strange conception but that is quite popular in the US.
While the Ferelden politicians are entangled into their politician games, the Blight is advancing and it takes military men, warriors to get the situation right, not politics(The Darkspawn are not good recipients to mediation approach in DA:O)
Same meme as in ME.

If indeed the story is about a pragmatic against an idealist, then it is poorly written. Because Loghain is not pragmatic, he is one absorbed by the struggle for power, disregarding anything happening around him not linked to his power claim (the Blight) and focusing on any threat that could disrupt the power claim (Cailan, the nobles, the warden)

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I disagree. Loghain embodies the role of pragmatist and nationalist. Remember, the Wardens have a very bad reputation in Ferelden, and part of what caused Loghain to turn on Cailan was Cailan's suggestion that Orlesian Wardens be allowed to participate in the blight campaign. Part of what makes Loghain a tragic figure is that he believes that what he's doing is absolutely right, even if it kills a lot of his own people. The primary motivation for him is the preservation of the autonomy and sovereignty of his country, because that's what he spent his youth campaigning for. Cailan, on the other hand believes in reconciliation, especially in the face of a threat that doesn't care about borders. He doesn't want Orlais to take over the country, but he's not as isolationist as others.

The pragmatism of Loghain's military strategy is shown as well. The archdemon, at the time of Ostagar, hadn't yet shown itself, which, according to canon, is the moment a Blight actually begins. Because darkspawn generally travel the Deep Roads, there's always the chance that the blight may actually begin in Orzammar. What use is an army if it's been harried for weeks by an advance force, only to be wiped out by the main body of the opposition? Better to consolidate your forces in a defensible position, and move once you have a better idea of the enemy's actual numbers.