Bioshock - Review @ GameBanshee

Yeah, D! So there, JDR!

chamr said:

Since he was speaking in such absolutes, it's like telling a skyscraper architect that he/she can't tell me that I'm not qualified to have an opinion on how a skyscraper should be built. To use your words: patently ridiculous.

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Have you actually talked to skyscraper architects (or, more broadly, specialists in some technically complex field?) I have. Sure, you'll find the occasional snob who will treat you like that -- but most of them will listen to your opinion or idea, and will then explain why it's either flawed or unoriginal. In the unlikely case that it's neither, they will pick up on it.

But very few will tell you outright that "you're not entitled to an opinion because you're not qualified." My experience anyway. (Also, I don't have a great deal of respect for those who do say that.)

Dhruin said:

Neither of which means the game wasn't great but I did find my initial great enthusiasm was a little ameliorated and I haven't finished the game because my attention was caught by other stuff.

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As stated, I did finish the game (twice), and I still think it's a great, probably classic game... although most certainly not flawless.

On my second play-through, what particularly struck me was that the game flopped towards the end. It hit its high point at Sander Cohen, soldiered on nicely enough until the end of Hephaestus Core, and then descended into filler -- it didn't look as interesting, sound as interesting, or certainly play as interesting as anything up to then.

There is something to be said for a game that alternates between wide-open levels and closed, dense levels. It makes you appreciate the close, dense ones more. S.T.A.L.K.E.R., for example.

Prime Junta said:

On my second play-through, what particularly struck me was that the game flopped towards the end. It hit its high point at Sander Cohen, soldiered on nicely enough until the end of Hephaestus Core, and then descended into filler -- it didn't look as interesting, sound as interesting, or certainly play as interesting as anything up to then.

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Certainly ... and the moment you kill Ryan is cited as the real milestone where the developers appear to have lost the handle on the narrative to an extent.

Wow, what a useless thread this has turned out to be, it's the same 3-4 idiots just trying to counter-point each other over and over again.

If you didn't like Bioshock then don't f***ing play it again, it's that simple.

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I'm glad you feel you know me well enough to call me an idiot, that must tell us a lot about your ability to accurately judge people without much experience with them.

I have to say, I really do feel like an idiot for exchanging opinions with interesting people, because that's obviously very wrong to do. Especially when it's directly related to a game in a thread about that game.

DArtagnan said:

Especially when it's directly related to a game in a thread about that game.

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I think what he is referring to is the fact that we let our discussion of the game at hand get sidetracked - I reacted to a quote out of context and some other things that triggered reactions from other threads on other forums ... and made some heated remarks and an inappropriate and contextually incorrect ad hominem remark. Certainly I wasn't the only one, and there were personal attacks in there, but the bottom line is that you were amongst those participating in the thread getting flung afar ... regardless of the fact that it is about the game in question.

Brother None said:

To put it more succinctly: the choice of harvesting or saving Little Sisters does not go any deeper than the emotionally heart-wrenching scene involved in it. It's nothing beyond that; it's not meaningful for the story, it's not meaningful for the PC, it's not meaningful for the game's mechanics, and it is in the end presented in a completely unrealistic dichotomy of extreme evil and extreme good.

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Really? Wow, from that it sounds like you played a different game than me. Perhaps that is where we come to divergent opinions. I found it central to the entire story - the Little Sister is practically the very core of the story! You have a place that has founded itself on advancement for its' own sake, free from the tethers of morality and ethics. In a 'normal' society, who are those fundamental to every protection and action? Children. In Ryan's society, those same children have been found to be effective tools to use in the advancement of the society free of moral implications. Therefore the Little Sisters form the basis of the moral struggle between the player and the society, and the decision to harvest or not plays into that struggle. Is the end 'black or white'? Sure, but I have seen that as similar to saying "you can't be 'kind of' a cannibal'.

I don't think anybody thinks it's a bad game. A score of 8.2 is pretty decent, and it still has one of the best game stories for quite some time (imo).

woges said:

I don't think anybody thinks it's a bad game. A score of 8.2 is pretty decent, and it still has one of the best game stories for quite some time (imo).

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Maybe you missed me last post in this thread. I'll copy and paste for you.

"I despise shooters. I've never beat any and played a couple minutes of a couple of them. And, because of all the hype, I downloaded the demo of Bioshock. I have basically zero shooter experience, and I blew through the demo like a Greek god of Awesome. If this game was a Greek god it would be the god of easyness, sloth, and stupid. The score of this game should be a 4 out of 100, and that 4 being granted because of the fancy smancy graphics and the fact that it ran."

I'm soebody and I think it's a horrible, petty, and childish game. It was created soley to be an insult and a slap in the face to people that fit one of the following criteria: are older than nine, have at least a 3rd grade education, have at least one testicle, bodies that produce even the slightest amount of testosterone, or are not somehow mentally handicapable.

A score of more than 10% out of 100 is an atrocity and speaks volumes of the piss poor state of the gaming market. May God have mercy on all your souls.

txa1265 said:

Really? Wow, from that it sounds like you played a different game than me. Perhaps that is where we come to divergent opinions. I found it central to the entire story - the Little Sister is practically the very core of the story! You have a place that has founded itself on advancement for its' own sake, free from the tethers of morality and ethics. In a 'normal' society, who are those fundamental to every protection and action? Children. In Ryan's society, those same children have been found to be effective tools to use in the advancement of the society free of moral implications. Therefore the Little Sisters form the basis of the moral struggle between the player and the society, and the decision to harvest or not plays into that struggle. Is the end 'black or white'? Sure, but I have seen that as similar to saying "you can't be 'kind of' a cannibal'.

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You mean there's no moral difference between being forced into cannibalism through circumstances or committing cannibalism because you find it sexually arousing? Yes, I suppose if the world is so black and white that cannibalism is always cannibalism period and there're no shades of wrongness to it, then that statement would be true. But who believes in that kind of ridiculous morality anymore, except monotheists and LotR fans?

I find it odd that you'd consider it central to the story when Irrational finds it necessary to shove the point in your face and underline it several times. The setting's main point may be the idyllic society turned dystopia, but the storyline's main point is very, very obviously about freedom and slavery, and this as a definition of humanity. There's a reason Ayn Rand keeps getting mentioned time and again, and I am really puzzled that you missed the fact that Ken Levine actually has one of the NPCs literally shout the point of the story at you and you still think it's something else.

There's no moral struggle between the PC and society either. That, from the viewpoint of the storyline mechanics, is a completely ludicrous statement, in fact, so ludicrous I'd almost think you actually haven't played the game, because such a statement would only make sense as a description of the opening sequence, not of the game. Tell me, how did you feel about the fact that you have no choice whatsoever about not using any Adam or Eve? The morality here is so blunt and ham-fisted that I personally have a hard time taking it serious.

Anyway, you're still not grasping the fact that the Little Sisters are an emotional appeal and nothing more. The fact that you could possibly take this as a reflection of society as a whole doesn't do much to change that from the viewpoint of the game's story or gameplay mechanics. At most for the setting, and even that's a stretch. Hell, it's odd that you'd look at it as a point on care of the state rather than on the point it's actually trying to make, which is about empowerment and lack of. Or you didn't notice the juxtaposition Levine, again, shoves in your face here?

I think what he is referring to is the fact that we let our discussion of the game at hand get sidetracked - I reacted to a quote out of context and some other things that triggered reactions from other threads on other forums ... and made some heated remarks and an inappropriate and contextually incorrect ad hominem remark. Certainly I wasn't the only one, and there were personal attacks in there, but the bottom line is that you were amongst those participating in the thread getting flung afar ... regardless of the fact that it is about the game in question.

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Yes, I admit that maybe the discussion was sidetracked, but I consider my personal interactions with people regarding Bioshock quite legitimate. I'm not saying it's of equal interest to everyone, and indeed people who love the game probably don't like other people explaining why they don't.

In any case, calling me an idiot for doing so is WAY out of line, especially because I haven't resorted to personal attacks of any kind, nor would I.

But whatever, it's not like it's important, I just stated something I felt was necessary and having people consider me an idiot is something I can easily live with, as I've gotten used to it

dgfhgjkhjkhfjf said:

Maybe you missed me last post in this thread. I'll copy and paste for you.

"I despise shooters. I've never beat any and played a couple minutes of a couple of them. And, because of all the hype, I downloaded the demo of Bioshock. I have basically zero shooter experience, and I blew through the demo like a Greek god of Awesome. If this game was a Greek god it would be the god of easyness, sloth, and stupid. The score of this game should be a 4 out of 100, and that 4 being granted because of the fancy smancy graphics and the fact that it ran."

I'm soebody and I think it's a horrible, petty, and childish game. It was created soley to be an insult and a slap in the face to people that fit one of the following criteria: are older than nine, have at least a 3rd grade education, have at least one testicle, bodies that produce even the slightest amount of testosterone, or are not somehow mentally handicapable.

A score of more than 10% out of 100 is an atrocity and speaks volumes of the piss poor state of the gaming market. May God have mercy on all your souls.

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I think you are somebody that can be safely ingored, i.e. a non-entity, so woges point stands

GhanBuriGhan said:

I think you are somebody that can be safely ingored, i.e. a non-entity, so woges point stands

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LIES!!!! Flithy, monkey lies. My mother would beg to differ. She says I'm somebody and very special, and she also said that I just might be the best kisser she has had the pleasure of necking with. And I'm not too shabby in the old sack BTW. Yours lies ment to hurt me and undermine my truth have not worked, because I'm rubber and you, sir, are glue. So whatever you say to me bounces off and sticks to you. Chew on that a little, mr. meany-pants!!!!

kghhjglgjhlihoi said:

LIES!!!! Flithy, monkey lies. My mother would beg to differ. She says I'm somebody and very special, and she also said that I just might be the best kisser she has had the pleasure of necking with. And I'm not too shabby in the old sack BTW. Yours lies ment to hurt me and undermine my truth have not worked, because I'm rubber and you, sir, are glue. So whatever you say to me bounces off and sticks to you. Chew on that a little, mr. meany-pants!!!!

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Why don't you just use your registered forum name, roqua?

Talk about being sidetracked...

Asbjoern said:

Why don't you just use your registered forum name, roqua?

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Well mr. super slueth, I happen to be from the Netherlands and my name really is bhbjkbjbfjdfh. And I haven't registered because I don't have an email address. But thanks for making fun of the names of my people.

sfdghsdfshgfj said:

But thanks for making fun of the names of my people.

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My pleasure. You know, in Denmark we make fun of other cultures.

I recently finished reading Raph Coster's book, and one of the themes in it fits this rather well.

Games operate on a couple of levels: a high level fiction and low level rules. Gamers are good (or trained, even) to look past the fiction and see only the rules. Casual players or non-players seldom see past the fiction.

"This is why gamers are dismissive of the ethical implications of games -- they don't see 'get a blowjob from a hooker, then run her over.' They see a power-up." -- A Theory of Fun

The little sisters are nothing more than a power-up. But the fiction surrounding them is more compelling for some players. Credit Irrational for succeeding at the fiction part if plenty of the experienced players are able to buy into the fiction when they would otherwise metagame the power-up.

TXA obviously bought into the fiction, and good for him. Like BN, I do not. All I see are creepy little goblins, glowy eyes, gargling sounds straight out of a bad porno, and "Kill him Mr B, tear him to shreds!" No sympathy from me.

Perhaps the fiction would have been compelling to more people in general had the LSs looked like normal girls instead of something out of Nightmare Theater.

Brother None said:

you're still not grasping the fact

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Wait, weren't you complaining about having someone question the validity of your opinion yesterday?

I disagree with you on everything related to the Little Sisters, apparently. That is fine, it is an opinion related to a segment of a game - it doesn't make me wrong and you right however, unless that is so important to you.

The game's story did sort of go into the tank after the climax in Andrew Ryan's office.

Re: The Vita Chambers
I think that if they had just made some tweaks to this mechanic, it would have been good. Like if they had charged you some money to use, and if you had to do something on each level to activate them. Other games that I have played with this type of mechanic at least have some kind of cost associated with it or in the case of Prey, it's a minigame.

txa1265 said:

Wait, weren't you complaining about having someone question the validity of your opinion yesterday?

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Where was I questioning the validity of your opinion? You left my point unaddressed and instead continued on another topic, hence my remark. Bit off-topic, tho'?

I wasn't complaining about anything, by the way, just clarifying someone else's complaint. Just an FYI.

txa1265 said:

I disagree with you on everything related to the Little Sisters, apparently. That is fine, it is an opinion related to a segment of a game - it doesn't make me wrong and you right however, unless that is so important to you.

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Ok, so you have no intention to address my actual arguments? I'm fine with you dismissing at "maybe that's just your opinion, man" and take a weak stab at my ego, but I found the topic pretty interesting and would've loved to see it develop anywhere other than to this kind of appeal to weakness.