Chris Avelone - About Planescape, Fallout: New Vegas and Player Expectations

Morrowind is not the present. I'm talking about the present. I'm pretty sure Mass Effect 3 and Skyrim have MUCH larger budgets than Risen 2.
My point was that Risen is probably more targeted at gamers who would appreciate Morrowind rather than Skyrim. Morrowind, unlike Skyrim wasn't budgeted or targeted at casual gamers. The "AAA" games and their budgets are about creating more casual games for the mainstream, they shouldn't be seen as "evolution" of previous more niche games.

No, we agree.

Yeah, I wrote "I think we do agree". Edited it now for clarity :p
 
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My point was that Risen is probably more targeted at gamers who would appreciate Morrowind rather than Skyrim. Morrowind, unlike Skyrim wasn't budgeted or targeted at casual gamers. The "AAA" games and their budgets are about creating more casual games for the mainstream, they shouldn't be seen as "evolution" of previous more niche games.

Why do you keep repeating what we've already agreed to? :)

That said, I don't think Skyrim is a "casual" version of Morrowind. I think it's a more accessible version with SOME enhancements (significant ones) and SOME sacrifices for the sake of money. Much like they did with Morrowind.

You seem to consider Morrowind the holy grail or something. To me, it's a pretty weak game overall - with a shit-ton of simplicity in some key areas. Daggerfall was the "least casual" game in the series, if you ask me. It was just too ambitious and flawed.

Also, I think Morrowind was a lot more "casual" than you seem to think. It was the first TES console game, after all. They made a lot of concessions for popularity - like a simplified character development system and an extremely basic combat system. They also did away with the ambitious scope of Daggerfall - which may or may not have been for the same reasons.

Also, they definitely went "all-out" on the visual side - where I think they might have been better served by focusing more on gameplay mechanics.

Yeah, I wrote "I think we do agree". Edited it now for clarity

I noticed that, but I felt it was appropriate to point out WHERE we agree :)
 
Why do you keep repeating what we've already agreed to? :)

That said, I don't think Skyrim is a "casual" version of Morrowind. I think it's a more accessible version with SOME enhancements (significant ones) and SOME sacrifices for the sake of money. Much like they did with Morrowind.
Well, I was using "casual" as seems to have become the new norm - not less time invested but less complex, less thinking required, little chance of doing something wrong.

I read a review saying "Limbo" was not for casual gamers and that's a game that takes 3-5 hours to complete and has extremely accessible controls.

Personally, I'm a casual gamer (usually play 2-3 times a week for 1-2 hours) who craves hardcore games :p

You seem to consider Morrowind the holy grail or something. To me, it's a pretty weak game overall - with a shit-ton of simplicity in some key areas. Daggerfall was the "least casual" game in the series, if you ask me.
Nah, was just using it as an example of a game by those companies with little handholding.
 
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Well, I was using "casual" as seems to have become the new norm - less complex, less thinking required, little chance of doing something wrong.

I read a review saying "Limbo" was not for casual gamers and that's a game that takes 3-5 hours to complete and has extremely accessible controls.

Personally, I'm a casual gamer (usually play 2-3 times a week for 1-2 hours) who craves hardcore games :p

Yeah, I think that's largely my perception of casual myself. But to me it's not a "bad" thing - it's just not MY thing.

I don't have as much time for gaming as I used to, but I don't want to play anything unless it's big and requires an investment. I just MAKE the time - which isn't too hard considering how rare it is that a great enthusiast game comes out.

Nah, was just using it as an example of a game by those companies with little handholding.

Well, it was a disappointment to me. Particularly the combat was incredibly weak - and I think the "use best attack always" is the ultimate example of hand-holding and streamlining for the sake of the casual audience.

Then again, I never had much respect for Bethesda in terms of interesting gameplay mechanics.

Not really their thing, obviously.
 
I don't have as much time for gaming as I used to, but I don't want to play anything unless it's big and requires an investment. I just MAKE the time - which isn't too hard considering how rare it is that a great enthusiast game comes out.

Yeah tell me about it...I love games where I start thinking about possibilities and strategies and actually enjoy browsing the manual before going to bed (or in the bathroom :p) - just because the depth is there and I feel the urge to explore it.
Never happened while playing an "AAA" game.
 
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Yeah tell me about it…I love games where I start thinking about possibilities and strategies and actually enjoy browsing the manual before going to bed (or in the bathroom :p) - just because the depth is there and I feel the urge to explore it.
Never happened while playing an "AAA" game.

Oh, how I miss those manuals.

I still read the Master of Orion 2 manual on occasion when nature calls ;)
 
I like hints before waypoints. I like "it's in area X, search" better than a waypoint because it makes me think about what I am doing (my brain shut off very quickly if I just follow the HUD). Although I prefer that an item is logically placed to an item that is randomly placed. But on top of that, "area X" need to be better defined than what it is in Fallout NV where most rooms look alike.

Also I believe it's important for the game to have an in-game notepad and the opportunity to set markers on the map. Can't be done as well on consoles since they have no keyboard, but I believe it's important since a player wont be able to play continuously and remember hints that aren't used at once.
Questing for an item to me is all about implimentation. You don't need a compass or a random generator if you impliment the object correctly. Example: Joe Blacksmith needs a Gear for his smithy, You have explored the area or when you do you discover an abandon mine. aha the perfect place in which to find a gear because they were used quite often in mines. The Blacksmith could even suggest you search there.

Quest objects should be unique objects with a specific purpose in the game world and the item itself should provide a good hint in what it is to where it might be found. Also getting the quest could trigger additional conversation dialogues from town folk. When you are looking for a place what do you do? generally ask someone, so follow that structure in game as well. "it's south just on the otherside of the bottlebay bridge" "Thanks and Well Met!!"
 
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DA2 is received far worse than DA:O.

It also has a ridiculously inflated Metacritic score thanks to Metacritic excluding user reviews from their total score and the 'professional' gaming press being scared shitless of EA.
 
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Questing for an item to me is all about implimentation. You don't need a compass or a random generator if you impliment the object correctly. Example: Joe Blacksmith needs a Gear for his smithy, You have explored the area or when you do you discover an abandon mine. aha the perfect place in which to find a gear because they were used quite often in mines. The Blacksmith could even suggest you search there.

Quest objects should be unique objects with a specific purpose in the game world and the item itself should provide a good hint in what it is to where it might be found. Also getting the quest could trigger additional conversation dialogues from town folk. When you are looking for a place what do you do? generally ask someone, so follow that structure in game as well. "it's south just on the otherside of the bottlebay bridge" "Thanks and Well Met!!"

The "mine" is a location. If the "mine" look like every other dungeon in the game there might be a problem similar to the problem I find in FNV where every "Office Complex" or "Apartment Complex" look very similar to one another, using the same kind of crates, boxes, shelves and lockers. You could simply name the location "The Mine" ofcourse but I think it's important that a location needs to stand out. Once you entered your tenth run-of-the-mill "Mine" or "Apartment Complex" and found nothing of value you cease to carefully look for unique stuff. Your mind have taught you routine/procedure and you may do so sloppy or faster than you would if the location had a sense of being unique or different.

FNV share a problem similar to that of Oblivion, even though it's better. It's a large world, but what you see inside buildings is usually the same. In this large world, handholding might be necessary because you cannot be expected to find what you need in a place as humongous as Fallout NV without good leads.

Of course, we can have some "Go There, Search the Lockers" in dialogue. I prefer such hints a lot more than a waypoint that lead all the way to the final thingie. I would prefer though, that the quest is more than finding a needle in a haystack, so that both the thing you need to find, and the location in which you are to find it, makes sense. If you search for "the papers of the Overseer" you should expect to first find the room of the Overseer, then search that room.

Worst treasure in Fallout NV to me was the skill books. They are usually very well hidden in places filled with generic content and in places you do not really expect to find them. But I know, those aren't quest items and it might be unbalancing to find them all.

And by the way, I believe I lost track about what we were talking about since I actually agree with what you said.
 
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Of course, we can have some "Go There, Search the Lockers" in dialogue.

Ironically, this is *exactly* what the presenter of Deus Ex 3 at the RPC told us ... Almost with these exact words ...
 
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You mean like Risen or Divinity 2? Yeah they looked really low-budget and retro to me. Or did those have bread-crumb trails and hand-holding? Last I checked they had higher metacritic scores than Obsidians latest game.

Some of you guys here are incredibly pessimistic…suddenly standards have changed so much that doing a game in a style that was viable in late 2008 (latest NWN2 expansion) is "retro" and must be done with a minimal budget. On Steam, NWN2 is played by more people than either DA:O or DA2 despite only being available since December 2010.

I would love to shake your hand. I agree I'm tired of the gaming press and gamers in general that keep saying everything 2-3 years old is old. I play those said games still and have more fun than some modern games.

I found NWN2 all the expansions and user mods to be a good game yet apparently the gaming community dammed the game and ruined the next sequel.
 
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the main solution is loot everything
sort through it later
works for me
but i can imagine not everyone else may enjoy that experience of leaving no stone unturned.

i mean new vegas has numerous perks that cater to this play style thankfully.

by the way if you like those thoughtful non compass quests play all of PuceMoose's quest for fallout 3 and new vegas, he just added some new content for his new vegas mod recently

also new vegas has drastically less skill books than fallout 3 so that might be why you're frustrated. also the game isn't bioshock where they can really give each room a unique feel and make objects stick out as the game is frickin huge. personally i think there's a lot more diversity than fallout 3 which really had all interiors and subways seem the same though i explored and looted them all anyhow, and they still were varied enough to make me remember them and not get lost on sunsequent playthroughs.

thankfully the crafting and "food/survival" system gives quite a bit of purpose to all the crap, and the mojave desert's flora and fauna are much more alive and realistic than walking around with 6 mutilated torsos
 
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