Biowear blames rival, rpgcodex.net for bad ratings

rune_74 said:

I bet comments like those make you ultra populor with the ladies.

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well tbh, mary kirby is more man than woman.

donjn said:

Say what you want about the Codex but look at their "approved" RPG game list. It is very long and every single one of those games are true RPGs, with good story telling, not dumbed down, no hand holding (you know, a game that makes you think) and no soap-opera crap like Bioware's female head writers are giving us these days.

It took me a while to mesh with them. But now I totally see their point. I 'get" them now..

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I immediately recoil whenever I hear about an "approved" list for anything. People say that the Codex used to be a better place to have a discussion, but I guess that was before my time. I lurk there precisely because I don't want to "mesh" with the majority of them. I don't hate them in the least, but a great deal of the discussions over there devolve into juvenile shouting matches, or competitions to see who can be the most offensive. I understand that they're very big proponents of the "free speech" ideal, but so is the Westboro Baptist Church.

My reasons for the way I feel about video games are my own, and while I enjoy a lively debate about various games, and the industry in general, I'm not so deluded to believe that I'm part of a special "hardcore" club. I'm not interested in judging or denigrating someone based on what they like or dislike, and that seems to be the main focus of what happens on the Codex forums.

There are a lot of people here that feel the same way that the posters on the Codex do. We don't feel the need to say "fuck" a hundred times a post. Or talk about rape. Or question someone's heritage because of the games they like.

Say what you want about the Codex but look at their "approved" RPG game list. It is very long and every single one of those games are true RPGs, with good story telling, not dumbed down, no hand holding (you know, a game that makes you think) and no soap-opera crap like Bioware's female head writers are giving us these days.It took me a while to mesh with them. But now I totally see their point. I 'get" them now..

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The codex is ridiculous. Everyone with just a hint of knowledge about video games could put together such a list. I mean you can basically just go to Mobygames now and compile a list of quality games in under an hour for every given genre. You don't need to read the codex to find the gems of RPG gaming; and actually, the amount of gems you can find on the codex is frighteningly low for all the crap you have to put up with in return.

And, seriously, video games are not the type of thing you should be looking at, if you want to "think".

There was a time a few years ago when the codex was both entertaining and interesting to follow, but it has declined pretty badly since then. There are various reasons for that: VD feeding into the community's hatred to wet its appetite for AoD, which has resulted in an even more hostile environment; new posters failing at copying the established posters' styles, and then even newer posters copying these failed attempts, which caused the overall quality of posts to spiral downwards; and finally a noticeable incline in the quality of mainstream RPGs which makes hating these games look so much more ridiculous. Now, the codex is only interesting as a case study for a "forum community gone rogue".

Tilean said:

The codex is ridiculous. Everyone with just a hint of knowledge about video games could put together such a list. I mean you can basically just go to Mobygames now and compile a list of quality games in under an hour for every given genre. You don't need to read the codex to find the gems of RPG gaming; and actually, the amount of gems you can find on the codex is frighteningly low for all the crap you have to put up with in return.

And, seriously, video games are not the type of thing you should be looking at, if you want to "think".

There was a time a few years ago when the codex was both entertaining and interesting to follow, but it has declined pretty badly since then. There are various reasons for that: VD feeding into the community's hatred to wet its appetite for AoD, which has resulted in an even more hostile environment; new posters failing at copying the established posters' styles, and then even newer posters copying these failed attempts, which caused the overall quality of posts to spiral downwards; and finally a noticeable incline in the quality of mainstream RPGs which makes hating these games look so much more ridiculous. Now, the codex is only interesting as a case study for a "forum community gone rogue".

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Did you actually just say "a noticeable incline in the quality of mainstream RPGs"?

I cannot disagree with you more…

Finding good RPGs is not as simple as picking something ranked high on Mobygames or Metacritic. The fact that you don't know that speaks volumes..maybe this is precisely why you don't want to use your brain while playing a video game. Why not just watch a movie then?

I just love it when people use the phrase "video games" when they want to trivialize it to fit their argument. It is much akin to the old, "why are you guys arguing about it, it's a video game". In this case it makes you feel special like you play the piano and learn languages, and do all of this so-called sophisticated stuff and "thinking" in a video game is beneath you. And there are so many more important things out there to think about, and there is no down time; to relax AND think at the same time..please..

Finally, I agree that the Codex is full of a bunch of jerks and morons, and I like this place much better, for more of a level-headed discussion. However, if you strip the Codex of all of its bad behavior, and just look at the games they like, they all have one thing in common; the writing is good. And there are still games out there like Oblivion and Dragon Age that have bad writing...something most reviews aren't touching on..

donjn said:

Did you actually just say "a noticeable incline in the quality of mainstream RPGs"?

I cannot disagree with you more…

Finding good RPGs is not as simple as picking something ranked high on Mobygames or Metacritic. The fact that you don't know that speaks volumes..maybe this is precisely why you don't want to use your brain while playing a video game. Why not just watch a movie then?

I just love it when people use the phrase "video games" when they want to trivialize it to fit their argument. It is much akin to the old, "why are you guys arguing about it, it's a video game". In this case it makes you feel special like you play the piano and learn languages, and do all of this so-called sophisticated stuff and "thinking" in a video game is beneath you. And there are so many more important things out there to think about, and there is no down time; to relax AND think at the same time..please..

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Ah, the stereotypically Codexian argument: "Enetertainment is only valid if it is also intellectually stimulating," rears it's head again.

Here's a news flash for you: That's a load of bullshit. It's possible to be able to appreciate entertainment for entertainment's sake, while at the same time being appreciative of the trandscendent examples of a particular medium. It is also unnecessary to forego one in favor of the other. Furthermore, the idea that the same rigid and impossibly high standards must be applied to every form of art is exhausting and ridiculous.

I understand that this is what is important to you. However, judging someone else, or their taste, by your standards, when you don't know them personally, or the circumstances they exist in on a day by day basis, is so monumentally pompous and densely self absorbed, that it's surprising you haven't collapsed into your own personal black hole.

Captain Buzzkill said:

I understand that this is what is important to you. However, judging someone else, or their taste, by your standards, when you don't know them personally, or the circumstances they exist in on a day by day basis, is so monumentally pompous and densely self absorbed, that it's surprising you haven't collapsed into your own personal black hole.

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Wait, based on that paragraph above you should also direct it towards Tilean who said "And, seriously, video games are not the type of thing you should be looking at, if you want to "think".

He judged me. In fact, you can argue he judged me first! I actually was saying that I prefer games that make me think. It is he, who made a blanket judgment statement that video games should not make you think, instead of saying he prefers that video games don't make him think.

Hypocrite much?

Finally you called my comments "Ah, the stereotypically Codexian argument: "Enetertainment is only valid if it is also intellectually stimulating," So you place me with the Codexers, ESPECIALLY AFTER I CALLED THEM MORONS, and go against what you say regarding judging others based on what they say?

Man the hypocrisy is out of control here…

This paragraph is especially funny:

Here's a news flash for you: That's a load of bullshit. It's possible to be able to appreciate entertainment for entertainment's sake, while at the same time being appreciative of the trandscendent examples of a particular medium. It is also unnecessary to forego one in favor of the other. Furthermore, the idea that the same rigid and impossibly high standards must be applied to every form of art is exhausting and ridiculous.

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I smell a Transformers movie argument on the horizon, and how you appreciate the the "trandscendent examples" of its medium over the compelling, well done District 9. But wait, I do not want to judge you based on what you say. (Even though this is really all we have to go on) so I will ask you, which film did you like better?

Roi Danton said:

I still don't get them- But that doesn't matter because I realized right now by googleing this approved rpgs list that the Codex has a TvTrope entry.. And that just made my day.

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Priceless !!!!!!! :lol:

TvTrope are you guys serious? Look, I dislike RPGCodex as well, but anyone can write something in TVTrope. Obviously it was someone who is either:

1. A Bioware employee
2. A Bethesda employee
3. Someone who was trolled hard on the forum and got butthurt
4. Someone who dislikes Chris Avellone

Oh, I've been reading several days through TV tropes - and they have a few quite interesting ideas there ... (Especially for my side as a writer/author ... )

Look here : http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12784

My favourite, however, is still the entry about "pandering on the base" ...

Alrik Fassbauer said:

Oh, I've been reading several days through TV tropes - and they have a few quite interesting ideas there … (Especially for my side as a writer/author … )

Look here : http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12784

My favorite, however, is still the entry about "pandering on the base" …

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Great, now I can't leave this site. It's amazing. Especially for movie cliches…

Yes, I had the same "problem" !!! :lol:

4 years ago or so, (and probably before this, too), the Codex was an entertaining, fun and cool, intellectual place to be where one could critizise games - not because they were either Bethesda or Bioware games, but because of the games' merits on their own.
Oblivion were much discussed in 2006-2007 on the Codex; and then it all derailed from about june or maybe september 2007. Vault Dweller wanted to run a tighter ship, with more - shall we say - ability to give a 'time-out' to people that were nasty to other people. Sadly, this didn't happen - at least since the beginning of 2008, the Codex has not been its former self.

However, if Bioware thinks that rpgcodex has much to do with the low scores for DA2, Bioware is giving way much credit ot the rpgcodex...

PS: And what is 4chan?

I stay away from the codex. I used to post there a very long time ago but the place is full of hate. If you don't get in line with their drones they will honest to goodness stalk you around the net. I don't need a site like that to tell me what I should like, matter of fact I really don't care if someone says this rpg is more rpg then that one, at the end of the day I know I will have diffferent tastes then another and I accept that.

donjn said:

Did you actually just say "a noticeable incline in the quality of mainstream RPGs"?

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You are either very young or didn't play RPGs much in the last decade. Otherwise you would have noticed the drought of good RPG games in the middle of the last decade. Remember that there was a time, when the only mainstream RPGs were Oblivion, Gothic 3 and Neverwinter Nights 2. There was just nothing else.
And then games like Mask of the Betrayer, The Witcher, Divinity 2, Mass Effect 1/2, Drakensang, Alpha Protocol, Dragon Age, Fallout 3, New Vegas were released. You might not like all of them, but you can't deny that the overall quality of these games has definitely improved over a market which only offerings were Oblivion, G3 and NWN2.

donjn said:

Finding good RPGs is not as simple as picking something ranked high on Mobygames or Metacritic. The fact that you don't know that speaks volumes..maybe this is precisely why you don't want to use your brain while playing a video game. Why not just watch a movie then?

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I like how you immediately play the "ratings-are-untrustworthy card". Nowhere did I say that you should go by the ratings. But the fact that you don't know how to successfully navigate Mobygames speaks volumes. Maybe this is precisely why you want to use your brain while playing a video game.

In all seriousness though, there is a lot of theoretical potential in RPG games and video games in general, but the practical boundaries imposed by the nature of exponential growth inherent in nonlinearity dictates that a certain level of quality will probably never be reached, unless the amount of nonlinearity is drastically reduced or the financial effort is dramatically increased. Both cases are not really ideal solutions, so I am quite at peace with the current situation.

donjn said:

I just love it when people use the phrase "video games" when they want to trivialize it to fit their argument. It is much akin to the old, "why are you guys arguing about it, it's a video game". In this case it makes you feel special like you play the piano and learn languages, and do all of this so-called sophisticated stuff and "thinking" in a video game is beneath you. And there are so many more important things out there to think about, and there is no down time; to relax AND think at the same time..please..

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I don't use the phrase to trivialize, quite the contrary actually. I think it is the most objective and descriptive term. But I do think that there is a lot material besides games, that is more thought provoking and still simultaneously entertaining. Playing video games to satisfy this urge just doesn't seem to be the most effective way. I play video games because I like the unique mixture of rule- or mechanics-based gameplay with a story experience. But if the story experience tries to be too thoughtful to the point where it creates a noticeable dichotomy of the game into gameplay and story elements, then I start to have doubts whether they should be connected together at all. And this emergence of meta thoughts about the game itself can heavily subtract from the game's experience. This is especially true of fan favourite PS:T. Revel in its glory all you want, the game is still a shining example of how hard it is to reasonably combine gameplay and story elements.

donjn said:

However, if you strip the Codex of all of its bad behavior, and just look at the games they like, they all have one thing in common; the writing is good. And there are still games out there like Oblivion and Dragon Age that have bad writing…something most reviews aren't touching on..

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The quality and importance of writing in games is a debatable issue. I have not played Oblivion yet, but I recently finished DA:O. Writing is a pretty broad subject and a lot of different things can be considered "writing". Especially in open-world type games like the TES series. I wouldn't say that Morrowind's (or Daggerfall's or Arena's) writing, in terms of story and dialogue, has been particularly good, but did that detract from my enjoyment of the game? Certainly not. The games strength lies in other areas. So I don't see how Oblivion should be faulted for a lack of quality in its writing.

As for Dragon Age, I don't think its writing was particularly bad or severely lacking in any area. The characters could have been more fleshed out and more companion interaction and dialogue would certainly have been appreciated, but overall the writing got its job done. The setting and codex entries were definitely interesting and I preferred that subtle style of showing the world's flaws over the "in-your-face" moral ambiguity of The Witcher. The main story line was nothing special and the pacing could have been improved, but I didn't go into DA:O expecting a literature masterpiece.

donjn said:

He judged me. In fact, you can argue he judged me first! I actually was saying that I prefer games that make me think. It is he, who made a blanket judgment statement that video games should not make you think, instead of saying he prefers that video games don't make him think.

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I apologize. However, I didn't say "that games should not make you think", but instead implied that there is better and more importantly MORE stuff out there for thought-provoking entertainment than just games. I don't like the elitist attitude of codexers regarding PS:T and their idea of thoughtful entertainment, so I probably just caught your "you know, games that make you think" the wrong way.

donjn said:

TvTrope are you guys serious? Look, I dislike RPGCodex as well, but anyone can write something in TVTrope.

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Actually some of it is quite witty and really only makes sense if you know a lot about the codex, for example:

donjn said:

# Betty And Veronica: Vault Dweller and Dark Underlord respectively.
# Crazy Survivalist: Cleve is ready. Ready for what, you ask? He's just ready.

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donjn said:

Wait, based on that paragraph above you should also direct it towards Tilean who said "And, seriously, video games are not the type of thing you should be looking at, if you want to "think".

He judged me. In fact, you can argue he judged me first! I actually was saying that I prefer games that make me think. It is he, who made a blanket judgment statement that video games should not make you think, instead of saying he prefers that video games don't make him think.

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Two things: First of all, you have a point. There was a judgement made of people who expect intellectually challenging video games, but I would argue that it wasn't directed specifically at you. It was an impersonal "you" that gets used quite often; I know I do it. Doesn't change the fact that you felt judged, but that brings me to my second point: There are a lot of people that don't invest as much as some - emotionally or intellectually - into video games. That doesn't make them bad or stupid. They just don't see video games, specifically cRPGs, the same way that you, or I, or the average Codexer does. And how should they? What has gotten more advertising: "Bulletstorm," or "Avernum?" What are they more likely to see on the shelves: "Age of Decadence," or "Call of Duty: Black Ops?" I can't make any claims about Tilean, but there are a lot of people who fall into the "video gamez is for the lolz" camp, and it's no different from literature, film, or music. There's the Twilight books, Transformers, and Justin Beiber. We are not representative of the mainstream in the video game industry, and while that might suck, we don't have any entitlement to get what we want. Objective criticism of the mainstream is fine, but at the end of the day, all we can hope for is that a studio hears us and tries to make a game that we'll like.

Finally you called my comments "Ah, the stereotypically Codexian argument: "Enetertainment is only valid if it is also intellectually stimulating," So you place me with the Codexers, ESPECIALLY AFTER I CALLED THEM MORONS, and go against what you say regarding judging others based on what they say?

Man the hypocrisy is out of control here…

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Be fair. I started writing my reply before you amended your post saying that the Codex was full of jerks and morons, and I would have amended mine as well, but I had to leave to get to class. Furthermore, I was addressing the argument, not you specifically. Again, emotional investment has a strange ability to cloud objectivity. You used what I believe to be a fairly common thread on the Codex, so it would stand that, based on your previous post of "getting" the Codex, as well as your statements afterwards, it wouldn't be so presumptuous of me to assume you were an active Codex participant. In fact, I thought you were following through with standard Codex operating procedure of hyperbole and ad hominem until the very last paragraph, which follows:

I smell a Transformers movie argument on the horizon, and how you appreciate the the "trandscendent examples" of its medium over the compelling, well done District 9. But wait, I do not want to judge you based on what you say. (Even though this is really all we have to go on) so I will ask you, which film did you like better?

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The answer is patently obvious; that District 9 is a phenomenal movie, while Transformers is loud, obnoxious bilge. However, as I have previously stated, I'm not so emotionally invested in film as to be personally offended that a movie like Transformers even exists, and I grew up on the cartoon! I don't make declarative statements claiming that Michaell Bay is raping my childhood, and I certainly don't think someone a troglodyte for actually liking it. And that's what a lot of Codexers fail to understand, and it's why I would never fit in: I love cRPGs with depth, style, complexity, creativity, and resonance, but that doesn't require me to actively hate on people, that don't agree with me. If I think a game stinks, I'll debate with someone who loves it, but I'm going to try to frame my arguments within the context of the game.

aries100 said:

PS: And what is 4chan?

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what rpgcodex is to rpgwatch, is what 4chan is to facebook

go onto the site if you want

Tilean said:

You are either very young or didn't play RPGs much in the last decade. Otherwise you would have noticed the drought of good RPG games in the middle of the last decade. Remember that there was a time, when the only mainstream RPGs were Oblivion, Gothic 3 and Neverwinter Nights 2. There was just nothing else.
And then games like Mask of the Betrayer, The Witcher, Divinity 2, Mass Effect 1/2, Drakensang, Alpha Protocol, Dragon Age, Fallout 3, New Vegas were released. You might not like all of them, but you can't deny that the overall quality of these games has definitely improved over a market which only offerings were Oblivion, G3 and NWN2.

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40 years old here. Been playing RPGs since I was 13 year sold with Ultima III in 1983. I think RPGs were better when they were not as mainstream. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Fallout 1 and 2, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Bard's Tale, Wizardry Series, Might and Magic series, Ultima series, PS:T. I happen to think all of those games are better than the current offerings..

I like how you immediately play the "ratings-are-untrustworthy card". Nowhere did I say that you should go by the ratings. But the fact that you don't know how to successfully navigate Mobygames speaks volumes. Maybe this is precisely why you want to use your brain while playing a video game.

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You said yourself "I mean you can basically just go to Mobygames now and compile a list of quality games in under an hour for every given genre.". I assume, because Mobygames is based mostly on critics reviews and it has a rankings system, that most would immediately approach the top half of ratings to get said "acceptable list". You made going to Mobygames sound so easy and causal, like just pick the top 10 games and play them. If you meant that you were going to Moby and read the specific user reviews and build your conclusions from that, you should have said so..

In all seriousness though, there is a lot of theoretical potential in RPG games and video games in general, but the practical boundaries imposed by the nature of exponential growth inherent in nonlinearity dictates that a certain level of quality will probably never be reached, unless the amount of nonlinearity is drastically reduced or the financial effort is dramatically increased. Both cases are not really ideal solutions, so I am quite at peace with the current situation.

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I love the fact that you can put together big words to make complex sentences but what are you exactly talking about here? Non-linear, open-ended games have more budgetary restraints? Please, help this idiot out over here.

Captain Buzzkill said:

Two things: First of all, you have a point. There was a judgement made of people who expect intellectually challenging video games, but I would argue that it wasn't directed specifically at you. It was an impersonal "you" that gets used quite often; I know I do it. Doesn't change the fact that you felt judged, but that brings me to my second point: There are a lot of people that don't invest as much as some - emotionally or intellectually - into video games. That doesn't make them bad or stupid. They just don't see video games, specifically cRPGs, the same way that you, or I, or the average Codexer does. And how should they? What has gotten more advertising: "Bulletstorm," or "Avernum?" What are they more likely to see on the shelves: "Age of Decadence," or "Call of Duty: Black Ops?" I can't make any claims about Tilean, but there are a lot of people who fall into the "video gamez is for the lolz" camp, and it's no different from literature, film, or music. There's the Twilight books, Transformers, and Justin Beiber. We are not representative of the mainstream in the video game industry, and while that might suck, we don't have any entitlement to get what we want. Objective criticism of the mainstream is fine, but at the end of the day, all we can hope for is that a studio hears us and tries to make a game that we'll like.




Be fair. I started writing my reply before you amended your post saying that the Codex was full of jerks and morons, and I would have amended mine as well, but I had to leave to get to class. Furthermore, I was addressing the argument, not you specifically. Again, emotional investment has a strange ability to cloud objectivity. You used what I believe to be a fairly common thread on the Codex, so it would stand that, based on your previous post of "getting" the Codex, as well as your statements afterwards, it wouldn't be so presumptuous of me to assume you were an active Codex participant. In fact, I thought you were following through with standard Codex operating procedure of hyperbole and ad hominem until the very last paragraph, which follows:



The answer is patently obvious; that District 9 is a phenomenal movie, while Transformers is loud, obnoxious bilge. However, as I have previously stated, I'm not so emotionally invested in film as to be personally offended that a movie like Transformers even exists, and I grew up on the cartoon! I don't make declarative statements claiming that Michaell Bay is raping my childhood, and I certainly don't think someone a troglodyte for actually liking it. And that's what a lot of Codexers fail to understand, and it's why I would never fit in: I love cRPGs with depth, style, complexity, creativity, and resonance, but that doesn't require me to actively hate on people, that don't agree with me. If I think a game stinks, I'll debate with someone who loves it, but I'm going to try to frame my arguments within the context of the game.

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All good replies..

The one thing I just want to let everyone know is, I think the RPGCodex "acceptable list" is exceptional even though I think they are jerks. That is basically what I was trying to say.

I do not however agree with EVERYTHING they say. They are one collective mind. And crap like that is scary, like a cult. I happened to love Fallout 3 and they made fun of me for that. Insanity!

donjn said:

I do not however agree with EVERYTHING they say. They are one collective mind. And crap like that is scary, like a cult. I happened to love Fallout 3 and they made fun of me for that. Insanity!

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They have fun being elitists and snarky. I was on a DVD forum like 10 years ago that was similar and it was amusing then, as a much younger man, but today it bores me. Also I can't stand how pro-piracy the codex is, many of them even pirate good games and when you question them they just cuss and rant about nothing.

All that said their core messages are good. Pointing out stupid decisions by developers desperate for mainstream success is good. Praising the classics is good. Pointing out what it is about the classics that new games lack is good. Pointing out indie and small studio projects that are more in-tune with our tastes is good.

They just go way overboard.

donjn said:

40 years old here. Been playing RPGs since I was 13 year sold with Ultima III in 1983. I think RPGs were better when they were not as mainstream. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Fallout 1 and 2, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Bard's Tale, Wizardry Series, Might and Magic series, Ultima series, PS:T. I happen to think all of those games are better than the current offerings..

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I am 22 and I grew up on the Infinity Engine games (never played Icewind Dale though) and Fallout games. The only DOS era RPGs I have played somewhat extensively are Darklands and TES:Arena. Though I can see the charm in DOS era RPGs, I lack the motivation to play them, so I am not really qualified to compare them to newer games. However, I always was under the impression that the Fallout games were a considerable step forwards in terms of dialogue and roleplaying mechanics.

For me there was a serious lack of good RPGs in the period between 2004-2006 and nothing on the horizon to look forward to. I feel this has definitely changed with the games I mentioned in the last years. These games might not be on par with Interplay/Troika or Infinity games, but they are improvements over titles like Oblivion and Jade Empire.

donjn said:

I love the fact that you can put together big words to make complex sentences but what are you exactly talking about here? Non-linear, open-ended games have more budgetary restraints? Please, help this idiot out over here.

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I was trying to emulate the spirit of the old codex there. What I mean by nonlinearity is basically the existence of meaningful choice. In a total utopia every choice would affect every other situation in the game in some way. This is of course impractical and would quickly reach the limit of financial feasibility, so you either cut corners but introducing more linear parts or disconnect certain parts of the game, so they won't affect each other. And even if you had the basic framework down with a reasonable balance between nonlinear and linear elements, there would still be the problem of having actual content that through the player's eyes is engaging and fun. Striking the perfect balance in all this is incredibly complex and unlike other forms of entertainment that don't rely on interactivity the designers of RPGs have to constantly enforce tricks to create illusions of choice. Because of this complexity I am willing to forgive a lot of shortcomings of RPGs and don't hold a grudge against companies like Bioware. They might not follow the Troika/Obsidian approach of choices, but they make up for it by producing polished games that offer unique experiences.

donjn said:

I do not however agree with EVERYTHING they say. They are one collective mind. And crap like that is scary, like a cult. I happened to love [insert any post-2004 RPG here] and they made fun of me for that. Insanity!

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I actually had a similar experience.