I love a story with a happy ending.

CrazyIrish said:

Disproportionality of violence is something that people talk about in air conditioned rooms far removed from the scene of such acts. The lines in real life are significantly blurrier.

Hindsight allows us to see what the exact level of force necessary to end the threat likely was. Expecting people to know that ahead of time, say, while their head is getting slammed against pavement is just plain silly.

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Pavement? Um, no. Grass. One minor abrasion to Martin meaning one punch.

And when you are being stalked and chased and harassed by an armed vigilante who has already decided that you won't be one of those who 'always get away' ... then what is the appropriate response? Zimmerman has no authority, Martin was under no obligation to talk to him, respond to him or anything else. Zimmerman pursued Martin all the way to very close to his house. Then when Martin tried to defend himself from the armed stalker ... he killed him.

You can't stalk someone in 3 minutes' time. he has all the authority in the world to talk to who he wants.

It's not defense to beat someone.

He was covered in blood, I saw the pictures. They were also tusseling several minutes. And you said the guy was white. you seem to have absolutely everything wrong.

CrazyIrish said:

Disproportionality of violence is something that people talk about in air conditioned rooms far removed from the scene of such acts. The lines in real life are significantly blurrier.

Hindsight allows us to see what the exact level of force necessary to end the threat likely was. Expecting people to know that ahead of time, say, while their head is getting slammed against pavement is just plain silly.

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That's why there has to be a trial, where other people can decide whether the violent answer, if an answer and no provocation, was logical and the action taken sound and sane considering the situation, the feelings and the motives of the suspect.

But with the 'Stand your ground' law it does not always come to that. Now people (can) get away with murder. I would not be surprised if some people would carefully study the demands of the 'Stand your ground' in advance before deciding how to kill a certain person.

JDR13 said:

I'm sure there will still be some people here in denial, but what you said is as close to objective truth as we're going to get.

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The only objective truths are that Trayvon Martin is dead, that George Zimmerman killed him, and that if he waited TWO MINUTES as the police requested then Martin would be alive ... or at least not dead at the hands of Zimmerman.

Those are the only truths here. Everything else is up for debate, and will never be known for sure.

ManWhoJaped said:

Sounds like you better keep it up or else you will get yelled at or beaten for disagreeing.

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Maybe you should start complimenting him with his 'pen is' too.

I'm for self-defence against criminals/attackers.
I'm against shooting weapons in private hands.

Use a shocker or spray or any other non lethal weapon to defend yourself.
Learn Judo or Karate if you neighborhood is really dangerous.

ManWhoJaped said:

you seem to have absolutely everything wrong.

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As someone who doesn't believe in the reality and omnipresence of racism ... you have the 'wrongness' market sewn up.

But such is the way of the white privilege, talk radio fed modern tea party racist ... probably also go around saying you should be able to use the N word, that reverse racism is a thing, and wondering when it will be WHITE history month.

Oh well.

HiddenX said:

I'm for self-defence against criminals/attackers.
I'm against shooting weapons in private hands.

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As we have shown the world repeatedly - in America, gun rights trump everything. I remember the perfect quote from after the Sandy Hook shooting:

One guy tries to use a shoe bomb = Everyone at the airport takes their shoes off. 31 school shootings since Columbine = no changes.

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Nice quote. And Omega, you are too kind. I have to agree that the facts we know of that night are that someone was killed, and it could have been avoided if smarter and wiser people were heeded. But it's too good as a source of propaganda for the right and gun lobby, so everyone hears gobblygook on the media instead.

txa1265 said:

As someone who doesn't believe in the reality and omnipresence of racism … you have the 'wrongness' market sewn up.

But such is the way of the white privilege, talk radio fed modern tea party racist … probably also go around saying you should be able to use the N word, that reverse racism is a thing, and wondering when it will be WHITE history month.

Oh well.

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:lol:

Unless you are a millionaire by birth many times over you are not privileged. And that doesn't give anyone the right to be violent in any case, it's never the victim's fault.

And no there is no achievement by "us" unless you were on manhatten project personally or something, so therefore no need for white or black specific history.

And if you hear people talk about the N word sounds like you hang out with too many rednecks. Can't think of the last time I heard it but on the tv but most the country's not like that and even the ones who are like that generally don't go around murdering people for fun. If they did there'd be no one left to be racist at by now, like happened in the middle east with all their black slaves. Though I'd bet anything you are a bit racist, hence all the guilt and the broad assumption EVERYONE is racist. Don't judge me by yourself, though, you don't know me.

But no white peoples is evul man.

Omega said:

Maybe you should start complimenting him with his 'pen is' too.

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But trolls bite.

Thrasher said:

But trolls bite.

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I am sure this one has no teeth. You might enjoy it!

haha. I'll have to close my eyes and imagine....

txa1265 said:

Pavement? Um, no. Grass. One minor abrasion to Martin meaning one punch.

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Try again. You're either extremely ignorant of the facts or you're just outright lying at this point. Perhaps a combination of both. Zimmerman's head was slammed against concrete, not grass.

Here's some photos of that "one minor abrasion" you speak of. He also had a broken nose.

txa1265 said:

And when you are being stalked and chased and harassed by an armed vigilante who has already decided that you won't be one of those who 'always get away' … then what is the appropriate response? Zimmerman has no authority, Martin was under no obligation to talk to him, respond to him or anything else. Zimmerman pursued Martin all the way to very close to his house. Then when Martin tried to defend himself from the armed stalker … he killed him.

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There's a big difference between being followed and being chased. Claiming Martin was being "chased and harassed" is pure bunk. There's no evidence whatsoever to support such a statement, and to claim that it was Martin who had to defend himself is hilarious. All the physical evidence points to the contrary.

Jeez we even got the tail end of the phone call. He went from zero to full aggro in 1/10th of a second, just like our friend thrasher here.

Plus zimmerman looks like he couldn't go three rounds with a fruit fly. Plus he was on top of zimmerman when he got shot. It goes on and on and on.

Everyone reasonable gave up on evil nazis when they saw the pics of the bloody head, big surprise though that didn't slow down some people in the least. Also didn't stop the prosecutors from trying to railroad someone they knew damn well was innocent, for their own political gain. Even all the prominent jewish civil rights lawyers are with zimmerman on this one but then they might be biased.

Here we go:

Nah, when someone starts saying you should suck their pen-is and name calling when you are dealing in cold facts you know you have won. When they start it after 2 posts and keep it up for several pages then they show themselves to be the lunatics they are for the whole world.

Plus I got txa to basically admit the whole argument was an emotional one. It's OK to attack people for approaching you on the street! :lol: If I knew that I'd have kicked the crap out of half a dozen bums a week for the last few years! I have been just ignoring them all this time when I could teach them a real lesson!

People need to watch tv news less and use their brains more.

Of course they won't admit defeat but it gave me a laugh.

Drithius-

I'll counter with this one also. Both are proven true every day.

ManWhoJaped said:

Nah, when someone starts saying you should suck their pen-is and name calling when you are dealing in cold facts you know you have won.

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You prefer to kiss his ass?

ManWhoJaped said:

Of course they won't admit defeat but it gave me a laugh.

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You have a strange sense of humor.

ManWhoJaped won't mind me putting a jape upon him?
Maybe I should take you more seriously though, yes, maybe I should give it a try.
'Cause second-hand you're not that expensive. Interesting reviews.

Amazon:

The Man Who Japed is Dick's mesmerizing and terrifying tale of a society so eager for order that it will sacrifice anything, including its freedom. Newer York is a post-holocaust city governed by the laws of an oppressively rigid morality. Highly mobile and miniature robots monitor the behavior of every citizen, and the slightest transgression can spell personal doom. Allen Purcell is one of the few people who has the capacity to literally change the way of the world, and once he's offered a high-profile job that acts as guardian of public ethics, he sets out to do precisely that. But first he must deal with the head in his closet.

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Did you read it, MWJ?

One core issue with public cases like this is the obsession with assigning blame. I don't know exactly what it is - but my own personal theory is that our brains need to put things into places where it can get a hold of them. A place where it's less uncomfortable than not actually knowing anything for certain.

I find it amazing that so many people can feel so very confident that they know what would have been right or wrong in a scenario they weren't a part of - and in which there will inevitably be relevant details even the particpants aren't fully aware of.

The thing about assigning blame is that such a position assumes the people involved had actual intentions to create a bad situation. The thing of it is that human beings are incredibly flawed - and shit tends to happen when so many flaws are interacting. There's no way around it.

Assigning blame and punishing in the name of "justice" is something we need to shed ourselves of - before we can even begin to have a society that's about benefit instead of harm.

If we can prove without a shred of doubt that the intention to bring harm was there - then MAYBE it makes sense to assign blame and punish. If we can't establish that - then this isn't about the people involved, but about our own inability to accept that shit happened and there's no reaction that will make it all better.