Skyrim Skyrim - Paid Mod Status Update(Re-Opened)

I don't have a problem with the idea of paid mods but I think it opens a whole can of worms that value non existing support group can't handle. Primairly the issue of stolen work showing up as a paid mod. They just can't deal with the current isuses customers have (such as key revocations) much less the issue of theft for sale.

jhwisner said:

Well they originally said they were done with Sky UI at version 4.1 and this prompted them to come back and do the crafting menus. Now they're holding off while they watch the shitstorm unfold. While I understand the panic that a mod like Sky UI going up as paid might cause for someone worried about the future of modding, the pre-emptive vitriol directed their way is certainly not encouraging them to keep making mods at all.

Chesko (Art of the Catch and Arrisa) sounds like they're almost ready to give up on modding entirely.



So yeah, kind of looking like the lasting effect of Valve's terrible execution of this along with the vitriol and divisiveness engendered could be convincing some modders to stop all together and some of the best modders who had taken a break to stay away. The backlash might just kill paid workshop mods for skyrim, but the vitriol and anger directed towards modders isn't going to leave the community unscathed either at this rate.

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A correction because there is a lot of miscommucation being spread - primarily by Chesko who is doing damage control.

"I am also considering removing my content from the Nexus. Why? The problem is that Robin et al, for perfectly good political reasons, have positioned themselves as essentially the champions of free mods and that they would never implement a for-pay system. However, The Nexus is a listed Service Provider on the curated Workshop, and they are profiting from Workshop sales. They are saying one thing, while simultaneously taking their cut. I'm not sure I'm comfortable supporting that any longer. I may just host my mods on my own site for anyone who is interested.

Is very misleading by Chesko. Mod authors have the completely OPTIONAL ability to say hey would like to donate a small percentage (think it is like 1-5%) of their money to Nexus. It is entirely up to the mod author and a way to say thanks to Nexus. If they don't do it Nexus gets nothing.

DarkOne, whom I often don't agree with but do this time, explained it as did others. Chesko is dealing with major backlash and is striking out to make it seem like he is the victim (which he is to some degree but it isn't the fault of Nexus).

I am trying to avoid the whole thing myself. I won't be paying for mods as I think this is a bad move and my own content will always be free (what little there is of it). I also don't begrudge people getting some coin for all their hard work. But I do dislike it when people give false and misleading information.

EDIT: Can read this for more details on the whole thing:

http://www.nexusmods.com/games/news/12459/?

Fluent said:

I really can't believe the doom and gloom I'm seeing. I expect it from Drithius but not from the rest of you.

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I'm sorry Fluent but your Pollyanna attitude makes me think that you simply don't understand the issues.

wolfgrimdark said:

A correction because there is a lot of miscommucation being spread - primarily by Chesko who is doing damage control.

"I am also considering removing my content from the Nexus. Why? The problem is that Robin et al, for perfectly good political reasons, have positioned themselves as essentially the champions of free mods and that they would never implement a for-pay system. However, The Nexus is a listed Service Provider on the curated Workshop, and they are profiting from Workshop sales. They are saying one thing, while simultaneously taking their cut. I'm not sure I'm comfortable supporting that any longer. I may just host my mods on my own site for anyone who is interested.

Is very misleading by Chesko. Mod authors have the completely OPTIONAL ability to say hey would like to donate a small percentage (think it is like 1-5%) of their money to Nexus. It is entirely up to the mod author and a way to say thanks to Nexus. If they don't do it Nexus gets nothing.

DarkOne, whom I often don't agree with but do this time, explained it as did others. Chesko is dealing with major backlash and is striking out to make it seem like he is the victim (which he is to some degree but it isn't the fault of Nexus).

I am trying to avoid the whole thing myself. I won't be paying for mods as I think this is a bad move and my own content will always be free (what little there is of it). I also don't begrudge people getting some coin for all their hard work. But I do dislike it when people give false and misleading information.

EDIT: Can read this for more details on the whole thing:

http://www.nexusmods.com/games/news/12459/?

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I don't have a problem with third party services being able to get money, considering it's up to the mod creator and it also seems that it comes out of the 75% the modder doesn't get anyways.

I actually don't think that paid mods are an inherently terrible idea either. I do think this is terribly executed, the modder's cut is too small by half, and that debuting it with a game with a huge existing supply of mods opened a can of worms valve is woefully incapable of handling. The last issue is what I think could be most damaging to the mod community.

Personally, I would rather see a prominently promoted patreon-like feature on both Steam and the Nexus. I actually donate to Gula's City Skylines building Patreon myself.

https://www.patreon.com/gula?ty=c

It's not wrong for modders who work hundreds of hours to be compensated by people who are willing and for those sites to promote that. Just as sites like kickstarter and patreon take a cut of donations, it would not be unreasonable for Valve, the Nexus, and Bethesda to earn a modest (say 10%) cut of those donations. That would still run into the same issues with borrowed/shared content though I think that sort of system might be less inclined to make as many people so angry. Unfortunately, this model is what emerged first.

On the whole, I'm with those who identify the chilling effects on community collaboration, and the monetization of every-bloody-thing possible.

But, trying to find a bright side, it could mean people organising themselves into sort of semi-pro modding studios, and that could potentially result in some interesting content. People could devote themselves more seriously to creating new quests and plotlines, trying their hand at game storytelling without having to establish a full game development studio to create their own games. If one made, for example, smash-hit story expansions and sold them for $4, a good modder could conceivably make a very good living.

Think what you will about paid user made mods. All i'm going to say is that this will just complicate things A LOT. And sadly those who suffer are us, mod users. Modding has always been based on sharing resources and friendly collaboration etc.

Money will change everything.

Just imagine the shitstorm when modder A uses someone's else work in his latest mod and starts to profit from it. This kind of stuff has caused problems before, but when you bring money into picture, the magnitude is entirely different.

So to continue our tale: Now later on Modder B finds out that Modder A has used his imperial legion armor mod without asking a permission. Obviously Modder B wants Modder A to stop abusing his work and he demands compensation… Now you can imagine where all this will lead to.

And what about sites like nexus? Their responssibilities will just increase. At some point Nexus staff will just give up hosting TES mods.

And then we can imagine a situation about pirated mods. Games will be always pirated, so why not mods as well ? And what if someone begins hosting paid mods freely?

A forum for the purchase of independently made MOD content is inevitable and could be a good and healthy thing if we end up seeing more Enderals and Nehrims - the kind of quality content that likely deserves some return for the effort.

But this was handled...poorly. Previously free content that's now monetized? You don't need a crystal ball to see how people would react.

Also this will just create a lot of unneeded resentment. Getting multiple mods to work together has always been a struggle. If people start putting real money on mods, they will start demanding better service from modders as well. Most guys who mod don't have the slighest idea what happens when you start having real customers.

I'm not saying that this wouldn't have positive effects. Larger projects and larger mod teams will definitely benefit from this, but I'm already seeing quite many potential problems

Fluent said:

I really can't believe the doom and gloom I'm seeing. I expect it from Drithius but not from the rest of you.

Think about the modders who will actually get to make some money off their time and effort. Think about how many new modders this will bring to the modding scene in hopes of making some money with a great new mod. This will give people incentive to put a lot of time and effort into their work, thus making for better mods in the long run. People can actually make money off their work now, and you guys are clamoring like it's the end of the world as we know it.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I think to maintain my sanity I'll take a break from this thread for awhile.

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Quite frankly, i don't understand how you don't see the issues with this decision.

*Sigh*

The mod scene will sort itself out. I have no doubt about that. All this doom and gloom is silly. You can either think the world is going to end by this decision, or be optimistic that it will work out fine. I prefer the latter.

Things will be fine, guys. And I've said all I care to about this topic. Just read my previous posts if you're interested in what I think about it.

Fluent said:

Think about the modders who will actually get to make some money off their time and effort. Think about how many new modders this will bring to the modding scene in hopes of making some money with a great new mod.

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The opposite could also happen. If the modding tools start requiring payment, I believe SkyUI has already announced the next version would be paid, then you have just raised the barrier to entry for some modders. Most modders start out learning from other people's mods. How many people will that discourage if they have to pay for mods?

I think the timing of this announcement is setting the stage for paid mods to be incorporated at the very beginning of Fallout 4, possibly being announced at E3.

Zloth said:

Getting only 25% may sound bad but, for most of the mods I've seen, it sounds about right. These people aren't making a game, they are tweaking small parts of the game. It's not so good for total conversion mods but those total conversions are still building on the same game engine so it's not like giving them 75% makes any sense, either.

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What?? Are you really serious or is it some kind of trolling? Because ppl decide what to buy or dont buy. If mod is small then its expected to have smaller price! 1 dollar for few pieces of nice armor, 4 or 5 dollars for some story campaign etc. If you dont like price, if mod is buggy, you shouldnt buy it. But its about PRICE and not shares! Now the model of shared profit is ridiculous and aimed to feed on work of modders. So what doesnt make any sense is your idea that most mods are small or average so NO MODDER, either good or bad, deserves fair payment for his work… unlike Valve + Bethesda which can take most of the money and its perfectly deserved according to Zloth. So if Valve sells bad mod its ok to take money from it, but its bad to give at least equal share to its creator. Completely ridiculous. I hope you wasnt serious.

Xian said:

The opposite could also happen.

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And a meteor could strike and the world could end tomorrow. What's your point?

You can either think that something new is going to suck and not work, or you can be optimistic that it will work and hope for the best. I choose to be optimistic that it will work, and I've explained why.

Now this is officially my last post on the topic and I am done with this thread.

Fluent said:

And a meteor could strike and the world could end tomorrow. What's your point?

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I thought that I had explained my point. How many mods out there rely on tool such as SkyUI for one example? Now you are going to have start paying for it. Some will not be able to do that for monetary reasons, so the potential is there to lessen the number of people developing mods. I have already seen that with DLC for instance, my son gets a DLC but his friend's parents won't buy it for their son, so now he can't play some maps together. It would be the same uphill battle for him to get them to pay for a mod tool.

I agree with you that eventually it will sort itself out, but it is going to be somewhere between the rosy picture some paint and the doom and gloom that others portray.

As someone who has contributed a great deal of personal time (and blood, sweat, and tears) developing mods over the years, I welcome the opportunity for me and others to receive some compensation. I personally favor Steam creating a donation scheme (built-in patreon) where 75% goes to modder and is entirely optional. That's a scheme that favors the modder and the work, not the publisher, who doesn't have to do a bloody thing in this arrangement (i.e, the "engine" for modding was already included in the game from the get-go) to secure the most profit.
So, I'm in favor of modders getting financial support. But I feel this approach is crummy.

"There could be a thousand reasons why something will not work. All you need is one good reason why it will work."

"In all things it is better to hope than to despair."

- Din, God of Honor (from the wonderful little action-RPG gem, Din's Curse)

To be fair, Schlangster has indicated that the MCM portion of SkyUI will always be free. That's what 99% of the mods out there rely on.

But, as to people who think this will nurture small independent studios to design large high quality mods for payment, I kind of doubt it… And here's why: if you don't pool resources from other modders and design everything from scratch (which is what this Workshop scheme fosters - that and piracy), it can take you 1-2 years to put out content with depth.

This snatch & grab will breed a mountain of small, forgettable assembly line mods that can be turned around for a quick profit, just as the iOS gamespace has become dominated by pathetically shallow titles. Why release a wholesale retexture pack or weapon pack when you can split it up into a dozen pieces and charge $1 for each piece?

And what if you forego the Workshop, put out work that took you a year to compile on the Nexus… and six months later, you get a PM relaying, "Hey, did you know that 'Ewi's Totally Radical Retexture Pack" is using your normal maps?" This has all the trappings to become an absolute mess for a variety of reasons and it's all in the name of greed - not on the part of the authors but on Valve/Bethesda's part.

I'm sure that many here are aware of the recent study out of Princeton from professors
Martin Gilen(Princeton), and Benjamin I. Page(Northwestern), that posits over the last few decades America has been transformed from a democracy into an oligarchy. The paper caused quite a stir when it was published earlier in the year.

Relevance? This move by Bethesda and Valve is another argument in favor of that conclusion. Modding has always been a community driven endeavor, for gamers, by gamers. This cynical ploy is an attempt by Beth/Valve to take control away from the public, and place it firmly into greedy corporate hands.

Ask yourself, who stands to benefit the most if this nonsense succeeds? It sure as hell isn't modders. IF they really wanted to let the community show their appreciation for the work modders do, they would have authorized sites like Nexus, TESA, as well as the Workshop, to STRONGLY advocate for donating whatever you wanted to your favorite mod authors.

Bethesda could have demanded that any site that wished to do so be authorized by them, keep diligent records, and pay a SMALL annual authorization fee based on the total amount of donations. The fee could be taken off the top of any donation. They didn't do that, instead they put together a system where the most benefit is accrued to them. They're effectively trying to turn modders into free labor who have no benefits, or protection. Anyone who can't see that is blind.

IF this succeeds, expect the Next G.E.C.K, or Creation Kit to be tied to steam exclusivity. You can also expect mods to become console focused, as Bethesda has continually confirmed that's where their priorities are focused. Microsoft flashes a little (for them) money, and Bethesda, Squareenix, etc. wag their little tales.

For those who suggest that this could turn out for the better(seriously?), all I need to do is point to the promises, and results of Greenlight, and Early Access. Hell, I could point to the unwieldy mess that constitutes the current Steam store.

No, the only entities this scheme is good for are corporations, who are to determined to take as many rights away from the public as they can get away with. Money talks, and right now it's shouting.

Oh, and for any who would accuse me of being one of those, "it should be free, a work of passion" types, look at the tag under my avatar. I believe in giving at the very least, a little something to the passionate amatures who produce works that I believe have value. I've donated to some of my favorite modders to help cover server cost, or software licensing fees. Thanks to this garbage, I'll be doing even more of that.

It's not giving modders monetary support that I object to, it's this cynical, blatant scheme to turn mods into microtransactions that benefit the profit hungry publisher at the expense of the public.

The redit thread that compiles information and responses from modders has been replaced again. The old two threads are locked, this is the new (day 3) one:

https://np.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33tz6q/official_sw_monetization_discussion_thread_day_3/

I'm really angry with this whole issue. There is so much wrong with this and it has the potential to set a very bad precedent, which might destroy one of the best things about pc gaming , that is the MOD community and the ability to mod games. While I agree it is too early to come to any conclusion, this whole situation has been so badly handled and so much contempt has been shown by steam and Bethesda to the gaming community which made them what they are, that I am really not optimistic. I am not afraid to put money in games or kickstarters I want to support, and am happy to do it . Most of the time, when a game comes out from a studio I like (like Bethesda, Obsidian, Piranha Bites, CD Projekt,…) I will buy the game on release or preorder the game, even though I know I won't play it right away and that by the time I play it , it would have been on sale. All because I want to show my support to the developers. So I am going to put my money where my mouth is and stop buying Bethesda games and steam games altogether for now, and wait to see how all this pans out.