CRPG Analyzer: A checklist for computer role-playing games

The category Character Development examines how the avatar (party) can be developed and equipped with items over time.

The category Exploration examines what possibilities (finding items, information sources, locations) the gameworld is holding for the avatar.
Can the avatar interact with the gameworld and can the gameworld affect him ?

The category Story examines what happens when the avatar starts to interact with the objects and information sources he found.

It's perhaps a bit abstract, myself I disagree that story/exploration/character development are the core, but more world simulation/character development. Nobody agree, fine let forget that.

The main point is that all CRPG match the MH, if they match then the definition base is ok. For the SH it's ambiguous and I don't know, for me the distinction isn't clear.

I think that some CRPG will or could not match all exploration MH but historically I think that all did. It's like the items thing, I think some CRPG will or could not match related MH but historically I think that all did.

I also have a huge problem with the word story, for me it's a beginning, a middle and an end, purely a linear thing and I think it's not CRPG. But if the word means something else, as a collection of story pieces, well ok.

We could rename the three categories into:
Character Development -> Character Development & Equipment
Exploration -> Exploration of the Gameworld
Story -> Story & Interaction
Ha ha the interaction word is embarrassing isn't it? :)

Gave up the subtle distinction between exploration and story and you win: World simulation (better than World creation that I was using). :p

Seriously interaction is hardly only under the story topic. Obviously it is under the world simulation topic, oops it doesn't exists, ok but under the exploration gameworld topic too. It's probably roughly relative to animate/inanimate or/and involving language/not involving language.
 
Joined
May 18, 2012
Messages
480
Majesty is a strategy game with a strong simulation part, and in a quite unique way because even your units are controlled by the game, and there's many RPG elements, items, classes, characters upgrades, exploration.

And probably quite rare, the trick is the avatar is present in the game (His/Her Majesty) but immaterial, has spells and the avatar is developed. And he even has items in the 2 which probably simplified the simulation element.

So CRPG. CRPG influenced so much the general games design that there's certainly many games usually not tagged as CRPG that will match.
 
Joined
May 18, 2012
Messages
480
@Ihaterpg

We agree on Character Development -> ok

You want a second big category Gameworld simulation

We splitted Gameworld simulation up in
Exploration = What can be found in the gameworld, can you interact with it and can the gameworld affect you.
and
Story = What happens if you start to interact with the things you found + background information.

What's the problem?

Again:
We want to identify CRPGs not pure Sandbox games like Elite for example.

I also have a huge problem with the word story, for me it's a beginning, a middle and an end, purely a linear thing and I think it's not CRPG. But if the word means something else, as a collection of story pieces, well ok.

Do you not read what I've have already written?
Definition: Story of a CRPG

The Story of a CRPG is the sum of the following:

- All actions, interactions, conversations and choices of the avatar in his progress through the game
- All reactions, answers, consequences and events the game is providing
- All quests and goals of the game
- All kinds of background information (main plot details, descriptions, lore, history…) that can be found out by the avatar

In short: The connected actions, reactions and events that happen when the avatar is exploring the gameworld supplemented by the background information.

and this:
attachment.php
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
19,813
Location
Germany
We splitted Gameworld simulation up in
Exploration = What can be found in the gameworld, can you interact with it and can the gameworld affect you.
and
Story = What happens if you start to interact with the things you found + background information.

What's the problem?
I didn't comment that version. I have read the math story definition, but it's clearly too complicate to use it. At least I believed the post highlighting the too high complexity has validated its non validation. And you quoted another version, so it was a confirmation that it was canceled.

So I commented the new version.

We want to identify CRPGs not pure Sandbox games like Elite for example.
What's the difference between Elite and a game like Daggerfall?

Are you realizing that the sub genres won't be a problem of MH but of degree of MH and of other non MH?

and this (diagram):
I don't see there character development/gameworld exploration/story. Perhaps you linked the wrong diagram?

It's very tempting to try make the reality fit into a nice symmetrical diagram, but it should match really.

I doubt that a thinking analyzing of genres and sub genre won't lead to many surprises in games tags. Game tags are provided and created for various reasons and not all relate to a strict genre definition.


EDIT: In the diagram, NPC interaction not in Story, Training+Looting+Shoping+Exploring in Story, nowhere interaction with the world which is perhaps an element minimized by plenty CRPG but from adventure simulation (including eat/sleep/…) to puzzles mechanisms and effects on world like a burned town, it's in my opinion an important element. All of that in the diagram that i don't understand. And I don't mean it's a complete list of stuff I don't understand in the diagram.
 
Joined
May 18, 2012
Messages
480
The diagram is an alternative way to see a CRPG - it shows possible objects in a CRPG gameworld:

Party characters
Non Party characters
Items
Places
Raw Materials

at the intersections between the objects I added the possible events that could happen.

It's a diagram of your world simulation - free your mind.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
19,813
Location
Germany
The diagram is an alternative way to see a CRPG - it shows possible objects in a CRPG gameworld:

Party characters
Non Party characters
Items
Places
Raw Materials

at the intersections between the objects I added the possible events that could happen.

It's a diagram of your world simulation - free your mind.
Lol don't be stuck on my World simulation, I didn't mentioned it once in this post. I name that manipulation, nothing nasty, but pure rhetoric trick. :)

So perhaps you haven't see the edit, so (with few changes), in the diagram:
  • NPC interaction not in Story? I don't understand.
  • Training+Looting+Shoping+Exploring in Story? I don't understand.
  • Looting only if related to NPC? And a chest abandoned found isn't loot?
  • For items interactions, I suppose the reader should conclude that items means building, places, mechanisms, traps. Because just quoting crafting and items interaction for the intersection with party..
  • I don't see where put a Guild the party burned.
  • I don't see where put a trap the party fall in because a NPC triggered a lever.

Yeah yeah the last two are smiles, quite valid, but smiles.

I don't mean it's a complete list of stuff I don't understand in the diagram. It's just current list.

Ok now ready to free my mind but a bit of explanations would be welcome, if the master could let the puzzling and riddles parts behind and starts to go in concrete and explanations that would be cool. :)

EDIT: I found a good last one, combats not related to items?
 
Joined
May 18, 2012
Messages
480
Well perhaps it's not important about the previous diagram, is anybody tried a first draft with Exploration/"Story"/Character development? And not related to CRPG sub genres because all should be in center. That could help clarify.
 
Joined
May 18, 2012
Messages
480
Just for you:

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • CRPG_new.png
    CRPG_new.png
    21.4 KB · Views: 127
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
19,813
Location
Germany
Woo beautiful job, thank you. I admit that a quick read don't let me understand all (why this stuff is here that stuff is there), but I'm sure such approach can help analyze the point Wulf mentioned about mixing categories.

I definitely think for now that there's something complicated between story and exploration and their relations to interactions and evolution. I'll look that diagram in detail (and critical spirit!) tonight. :)
 
Joined
May 18, 2012
Messages
480
@Ihaterpg, regarding the points you mentioned that are not shown on the latest diagram, here's how they would fit in:

Trading / Shopping -> Exploration (Interactivity)
Trading for equipment -> Exploration + Character Development
"trap the party fall in because a NPC triggered a lever." -> story; could be two parts:
— there's a trap the party can fall in -> exploration (immersion)
— NPC triggers a lever so something happens to you -> story (immersion)
"Guild the party burned." -> Story (Interactivity)

"combats related to items" -> Combat (Character Development)

Combat isn't part of the diagram. There could be a new one for that which shows elements related to the three other categories. The new diagram pretty much shows how the NtH list (v0.91) is layed out.

In it, I divided each main category (exploration, story, character development) into different subsections: choice, interactivity, immersion and interdependence. The diagram shows each main category and interdependence, i.e. elements that describe more than one category. In the NtH list there aren't any elements that are part of all three, because those would be too general. They can usually be split up, however, so that "choices have consequences" becomes
- character development choices affect dialoge -> character + story
- character development choices affect combat -> combat (character)
- different paths through the gameworld affect story development -> exploration + story
- …

There's a fourth (meta) category, combat, which shows how elements of exploration, story and character development have an influence on combat.


Examples for elements.
Each element you can come up with can probably be associated with one or two categories and a subcategory. Let's take the forest example.

- "There is a forest you can find." This requires exploration. It simply says something about an element in the world, so I'd put it in the Immersion subsection. -> Exploration (Immersion).
- "There is a burning forest." This is a narrative image — in your mind you make up a reason for why the forest is burning. Maybe someone set it aflame. Maybe a lighning bolt struck a tree. A burning forest "tells a story," so to speak. -> Story (Immersion).
- "You can burn the forest." This requires interaction with the environment -> Exploration (Interaction).
- "Your burning the forest changes story paths." Now we have interdependence. You interact with the world and the story changes because of it. If the choice was conscious, we'd get choice & consequence: Exploration + Story

The trick now is not to get too specific, because then we could come up with thousands of simple elements. Being too general isn't good either, because we want to see how strongly the different categories are represented in a CRPG.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
3,486
I have drawn another category diagram with all Must Haves (MH) and Should Haves (SH) of the CRPG definition V0.92 (auxiliary category Combat included this time).

As you can see most elements are NOT exclusively in one category. But that's not bad - in fact it is the beauty of CRPGs that most elements are intertwining.

Conclusion:
If we have a (MH) or (SH) element we have to choose a category that fits best.


____
PS:
Interesting read: What is a CRPG? by CRPG Addict
 

Attachments

  • Definition_CRPG_venn-edwards.jpg
    Definition_CRPG_venn-edwards.jpg
    115.5 KB · Views: 148
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
19,813
Location
Germany
For me it's like story is an Ogre, any evolution and interactions seems related to story. And I wonder why exploration doesn't relate too, travel is element of story. That's the comment for the first new diagram. If nobody share this feeling, forget it, it doesn't matter.

About the word story, it seems to me that it has an extended meaning here, some example: An encyclopedia isn't a story. A series of novella isn't a story. Even a series of novella in a same context isn't a story. But it's just a remark, I don't try arguing, it's loud thinking.

For the second diagram, well I just discover it.
 
Joined
May 18, 2012
Messages
480
Please don't mistake the story of a book with the story of a CRPG.

The story of a book is written already. It has a begin and an end.

The story of a CRPG (in the context of the definition) is the sum of all actions, interactions and events that are possible in a game.
A concrete story (=walktrough) will be created when you progress through the game. Many pathes and endings are possible.

A complete walktrough is one path through this story with all choices you made and consequences that befell you.
If you would write this walktrough down, then and only then this would be similar to the conventional story of a book.

I hope you understand what I mean :)

PS:
In the second diagram you can see that all Story elements are the category Exploration, too. No Wonder. The Story is created by exploring the gameworld: interact with NPCs, manipulate objects, collect items, combat, solve quests…
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
19,813
Location
Germany
I understand that and it's already mentioned as the "story you create yourself" that can have multiple meaning.

One walkthrough is a story, fine, but multiple walkthrough isn't a story and it's what's very special in CRPG, that it's more than a story. Perhaps that's what's chocking me not only for the word but also the global structure.

- Language stuff (pure lore, story, everything going through the language so better and it's so special).
- Interaction stuff (active, satisfaction to effect on).
- Simulation stuff (passive or pseudo realism, pleasure of an impressive toy).
- Discovery stuff (surprise of and pleasure of new elements)
- Gaming stuff (rules and beat them, solving puzzles and riddles, fights, manage well the character/party, find a secret hinted, and more, all pure game element).
- Aesthetic pleasure (beautiful landscape/places, great sounds, I cut music)
- The merge quality of the whole.

It's just a draft. Not even a story section because it's for me much more and mainly everything related to language which is much more than a story.

Not all have the same degree of importance and many stuff make links between them. For example, an action involves that a NPC in another place makes a comment about it or its effect, it's interaction+simulation+discovery and if the comment is cool it's +language.

EDIT: And also :
- density. For all elements, it's a matter of quality, number, but more of density, diluted stuff and fillers is quite a problem.

Well it's really just draft.

EDIT: But honestly, it doesn't talk me, but it's probably just that. I don't want interrupt more, I just don't feel concerned by this definition, perhaps something I haven't get but I think it's more a different point of view.
 
Joined
May 18, 2012
Messages
480
About the word story, it seems to me that it has an extended meaning here
Yes. Please have a look at this essay: Terminology and the difference between narrative and story.

We use "story" as "narrative" as defined there: everything that encompasses things that "tell a story", the background story, lore, dialogues, and even thoughts and other story elements.

Interesting read: What is a CRPG? by CRPG Addict
Looks good, going to read tomorrow. He linked to another article on armchairarcade.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
3,486
@Ihaterpg

You don't interrupt - criticism, a different point of view is always welcome.
You improved the definition in V0.92 already. :)

Many of your elements are in our Nice to Have list.

The items
- Aesthetic pleasure (beautiful landscape/places, great sounds, I cut music)
- The merge quality of the whole
are ratings and are not in our Informative General Game Info yet.

We could integrate some Simulation elements under Exploring the gameworld,
like NPC Schedules, Weather Effects as Should Have elements. But many CRPGs don't have these elements I think it is better they stay as Nice to Have.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
19,813
Location
Germany
Following are the bullet points from the different articles; basically more opinions we can consider.


CRPG Addict

Article: What is a CRPG (March, 2010)

"No matter how strong the role-playing aspects of a game, it doesn't "feel" like a CRPG to me unless you have attributes and an inventory"

(Qualities CRPGs seem to share)
- Character development, whether based on experience points or use of skills
- Freedom of movement throughout the game world, allowing you to go navigate around at your pleasure, going backwards and revisiting locations if desired
- Quests, including one "main quest," the completion of which wins the game
- A usually high-fantasy theme
- At least a partial focus on combat

(Nice CRPG elements…)
1. Character identification. You don't just develop a character in a CRPG, you build the character from the ground up, including its race, sex, and—most importantly—name.
2. Weapons, armor, and items to buy, find, and equip. This method of "character development" is as meaningful as experience points and leveling.
3. Combat at least partly based on probabilities [read: attributes] rather than action.
4. Game progression through combat and dialog, as opposed to solving puzzles
5. Interaction with NPCs. This is admittedly light or non-existent in some early CRPGs, but the promise is there, and the evolution of meaningful dialog is fairly swift.
6. Random encounters. In action games and shooters, you almost always encounter the exact same foes in the exact same locations
7. Choice of actions, and changes in the game world based on your actions.
(8.) Magic system
(9.) Medical system


New Article: Strategy games and CRPGs (June, 2013)
(Apparently he reduced his original points to 4)

(CRPGs should have…)
1) character leveling and development,
2) an inventory unconnected to the solving of puzzles, and
3) combat based on probability and statistics rather than player skill and speed
4) a single narrative, extending from the beginning to the end of the game, that allows you to conclusively "win."

- not 'choices' (dialogue or otherwise) are important, but nature of the protagonist, which *you* name, create and develop
- persistent heroes and an overall campaign story.


Matt Barton: (January, 2007)

Article: What's a CRPG? Some Thoughts on CRPG Genres

Family Resemblances
(He says not all CRPGs have all of these things, but most have at least some of them)

1. Emphasis on self-improvement.
2. A fantasy setting based loosely on the works of Tolkien.
3. Sci-Fi/post-apocalyptic settings. => fantasy = fantastic
4. Emphasis on strategic combat.
5. Puzzles, Riddles, and Mazes.
6. Magic/Artillery/Medical system.
7. An evil wizard and an orb. [=> Hero's Quest]
8. The General Store.
9. Henchmen/Party Balance.
10. Food/Water/Sleep requirements.
11. Increasing difficulty/bigger monsters as players progress.
12. Set/Random Encounters/Bosses

"I only listed 12, but I could easily go on. The point, though, is to start to try to find some common ground not among all CRPGs, but rather among different branches of the family. I can't think of any two CRPGs that don't at least share two of these items in common."

Key Contentions
1. Is it better to control a party or a single character?
2. Is it better to create new characters or play pre-made ones?
3. What aspects, if any, should be randomized?
4. What's the best way to handle magic?
5. Should characters have to eat and sleep?
6. What role should morality or ethics play?
7. Should gender/race have concrete effects in the game?
8. What's better—sandbox play or a tight narrative?
9. Should characters age and eventually die?
10. What restrictions (if any) should be placed on saving the game?

Some comments on these Key Contentions from a user: adamantyr's comments
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
3,486
Prioritizing CRPG Addict's list a bit, we'd get something along the lines of these:

MH
MH: character leveling and development (stats) — This is partly in C2 (MH). We don't mention "leveling" but kinda assume it's there.
MH: char development through equipment — C3 (MH).
MH: combat based on probability and statistics rather than player skill and speed — Since we don't have combat as MH, it's in F1 (SH).
MH: inventory unconnected to solving puzzles — we don't mention 'inventory' anywhere. I think the closest is "E2 (MH) you can find items". Could be extended, e.g. "E2 (MH) you can find items and collect them in an inventory (=> unconnected to solving puzzles)"
MH: a single narrative, extending from the beginning to the end of the game, that allows you to conclusively "win." — S2 (MH) + S3 (MH)?

SH
SH: game progression through combat and dialog rather than solving puzzles — we don't really have this
SH: interaction with NPCs — S5 (SH) — we have 'information sources' now, but I actually think simply using NPCs is fine because it's clearer — older CRPGs or others that don't have NPC can simply be commented on…
SH: random encounters — CRPG Addict: "In action games and shooters, you almost always encounter the exact same foes in the exact same locations. In CRPGs there are some set encounters, but almost all of them randomize at least some of the enemies you face. You never know when you'll round a corner and meet a party of orcs." We could make this a SH…
SH: Choice of actions, and changes in the game world based on your actions — S4, S7

NtH
NtH? theme = fantastic (=> fantasy, sci-fi, post-apoc, …) — we have tags for these, but don't really mention this as an element of CRPGs, I think.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
3,486
New try ;) -> New category names!

improved E2) and E3)
new:
E4) = Test: Are NPCs in the game ?
E5) = Test: Is Exploring non-linear ?

new tag in (setting) -> (tag) Real World

Random encounters are not a defining element IMHO. Could be a (NTH).
A random factor in combat (dice roll) is a (NtH) in combat too. Maybe even a (SH)?

***

Definition of a CRPG (V0.93)

The three core categories Character Development, Exploration of the Gameworld and Story & Interaction that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerised game can be defined as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their Must Have (MH) elements fulfilled to achieve CRPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each core category and the auxiliary category Combat also has a related Should Have (SH) sub list, the reviewer should make a comment if a sub list item is not fulfilled. Should one or more (SH) not be fulfilled the game is most likely a special CRPG (see Tags) or a CRPG light.

If all (SH) are fulfilled too there's no further discussion necessary -> the game is a true CRPG.

Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) list. With it you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game.
A general game info questionaire is added too, to do some rating.
-> Link

A CRPG is a computer game that fulfills these criterions:

Character Development
C1) (MH) you can control one or more characters (=party)
C2) (MH) you can develop your characters' stats and/or abilities by solving quests and other game actions like exploration, conversation, combat,…
C3) (MH) you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire

C4) (SH) you can create your characters
C5) (SH) character development requires careful thought and planning


Exploration of the Gameworld
E1) (MH) by exploring the gameworld you can find new locations
E2) (MH) you can find items that can be collected in an inventory (not only puzzle items!)
E3) (MH) you can find information sources: NPCs, entities, objects,… which can provide information.

E4) (SH) there are NPCs in the game
E5) (SH) you can choose a path - at least there are some branchings
E6) (SH) you can manipulate the gameworld in some way (pull levers, push buttons, open chests,…)
E7) (SH) the gameworld can affect your party (weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas,…)
E8) (SH) you may have to think or plan to progress or overcome obstacles, unlock locked areas, repair bridges, dispel barriers …


Story & Interaction
S1) (MH) you can get information (hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …) from information sources
S2) (MH) you can follow quests (at least one main quest)
S3) (MH) you can progress through connected events (= Story)
S4) (SH) the story is influenced more or less by your actions
S5) (SH) you can interact with information sources (NPC conversation, riddle statue question,…)
S6) (SH) you can make choices in those interactions
S7) (SH) your choices have consequences
S8) (SH) advancing in the story requires thought (irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles…)


Combat
F1) (SH) Combat efficiency (e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access…) is in some way tied to character stats or abilities
F2) (SH) Combat should be challenging (preparing, use of tactics and/or environment possible)


_____

(Tags) are computer game tags that qualify the CRPG label even further:

Tag-List

(Genre)
(tag) Adventure-RPG: the main emphases of the game are on Exploring and Story, less on Character Development
(tag) Rogue-like: the main emphases of the game are on Exploring and Character Development, less on Story. Often features permanent death if a character dies.
(tag) Hack & Slash: many enemies, most of them easy to kill, respawning of enemies, much loot
(tag) J-RPG: Manga Style graphics, turn based combat, Eastern style CRPG
(tag) W-RPG: Western style CRPG
(tag) MMORPG: Many players are questing simultaneously online
(tag) Puzzle-RPG: the game's main emphasis are puzzles
(tag) Non-Combat: the game features no combat
(tag) Action: the combat is real time without pause
(tag) Strategic: additional troop (not your party) management available
(tag) Tactical: the game puts an emphasis on player tactical skill over character skill, often multiple squads (party splitting) are possible
(tag) Sneaker: combat is possible, avoiding it with stealth is better
(tag) Thief-like: combat is possible, avoiding it with stealth is better, thief-skills are essential (lock picking, ambush, hiding, sneaking,…)
(tag) Shooter: combat is mostly ranged and requires hand eye coordination and reflexes from the player
(tag) Sandbox: open environment where a lot of content is organized around simulation rather than story
(tag) Dungeon Crawler: closed environment where a lot of content is organized around dungeon interaction (traps, levers, buttons, teleports, riddles…) rather than story.


(Combat style)
(tag) Real-time with pause: the real time combat can be paused any time
(tag) Real-time: the combat is real-time -> Action CRPG
(tag) Turn-based: the combat is turn-based

(Control)
(tag) Full control: full control over every party members action in combat
(tag) AI control: you only control part of the party directly, others are controlled by AI while they may accept general commands

(Multiplayer)
(tag) Massive
(tag) Single + MP
(tag) Single-player
(tag) Coop
(tag) PvP
(tag) PvE

(POV)
(tag) 1st-person
(tag) 3rd-person
(tag) Isometric
(tag) Top down
(tag) Floating camera: adds rotational control allowing full 3D navigation

(Setting)
(tag) Fantasy
(tag) Historical
(tag) Modern
(tag) Post-apoc
(tag) Sci-fi
(tag) Steampunk
(tag) Technofantasy
(tag) Real World

(Color palette)
(tag) subdued
(tag) realistic
(tag) whimsical
(tag) dazzling
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
19,813
Location
Germany
Every RPG Ever: The Flowchart :lol: -> JRPG

***

Found the diagram here:

Game mechanics traditionally found in role-playing games that are incorporated into a non-RPG title. Examples include:

Leveling up characters, in the Viva Pinata franchise
Inventory systems, in the Resident Evil franchise
Loot and loot systems, in Borderlands
Character customization, in Halo: Reach
Persistent weapon and skill upgrades, in Call Of Duty: Black Ops
Quests, in Red Dead Revolver

Story:
Most of the time the entire story revolves around your group of adventures trying to save the world from an evil villain.
 

Attachments

  • RPG.gif
    RPG.gif
    10.5 KB · Views: 34
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
19,813
Location
Germany
Back
Top Bottom