Risen - PC Review @ Eurogamer

This perfectly describes OB .

Not really, because OB suffered from abysmal writing and dreadful mechanics as well.

But it's true that many of the mainstream features of Oblivion are typical and the game is a fine example of the ultimate mainstream CRPG.
 
How can you not see the justification for selective scoring when you're embracing that? You're saying that because they stuffed up a review three years ago, everything else has to be scaled up to compensate. Reviewing shouldn't be about landing points to justify some perceived slight by Oblivion.


Um no, How am I embracing selective scoring? I'm talking about acknowledging a game's flaws and giving an honest review. Where did I say anything about "scaling up"? You somehow managed to miss my point entirely.

Oblivion receiving a perfect 10/10 from them has nothing to do with me disagreeing about the score they gave Risen, it's just an example of their level of credibility in general.
 
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But as someone who has written for pretty diverse types of sites (from an over-specialized over-opinionated fansite like NMA to a general RPG specialty site like GameBanshee to a mainstream generalist site like GamerNode), I've learned it's not all that simple. There's two factors in particular that stick out like a thumb:
1. How much do you write and what do you focus on when writing? Internet reviews are theoretically limitless, but not even the Watch and GameBanshee audiences would read a 40-page review of Dragon Age or Fallout 3. I feel more comfortable writing a 4-page review for GB than for GN. And given the text-limit reaches no more than 1000 words for GN, I have to pick and choose what to discuss and how much. So how do I choose? I have to guess what my audience is interested in. I could focus purely on what I care about but I'm not writing for myself.

What makes them extra painful is that I'm well aware that easily half my readers read the intro, conclusion and grade, if that, and many only glance at the grade. Obviously, the most important thing in giving out a mark is how much I like a game. But it's also a form of recommendation. If I'm reviewing an Avernum game, it'll usually range in the 7s for GB. I couldn't possibly recommend it to GN readers, so I might have to give it something into the 5s if I'd ever review it there. Which is exactly why I don't.

Honestly, if this is the case there is a problem with your approach. What kind of method would you use to find out what kind of score would be best for me, as a potential GN-reader? You don't know anything about me, except that I might or might not be a regular reader of GamerNode. This says absolutely nothing about me and my tastes. Even if you have (which I assume) access to data about your core readers (or those who bothered to answer the last reader survey), you don't know the first thing about them as individuals. Especially not the silent majority, who never post comments.

So really, it's pure guesswork from your side. You're making assumptions about me as a reader and what I would like, and in reality you have nothing tangible to base these assumptions on. Again, you're not a mind-reader, and you don't know me. No matter what you might think. All your readers are different individuals, and they deserve to be treated as such.

So if you're providing me with a score that's not based on you own opinions, but what you imagine I would like or not, you're doing both me as a reader and the game you're reviewing a huge disservice. I expect to be told what you think about a game, and if you're not telling me that, the review is useless to me. And you're throwing away any credibility you might have as a reviewer, because as a reader I expect you to judge the game for what it is. I expect professionalism and honesty, not futile attempts to please an imagined audience.


The way we do it (I have worked full time on a mainstream site for seven-eight years now) is that we use 1000-2000 words for the review, depending on the situation. Our Risen review was around 2000 words (I didn't write it). Now, we don't expect everyone to read all that. That's why we have pretty meaty conclusions at the end, and give out a score in the first place. The words are for the people who are actually interested (or the people who see the score, and then become interested).

We assume that a large number of the people who are interested know the genre. Our readers are all kinds of people, and fans of all kinds of genres, but they all expect our reviewers to know what they're talking about, whether they're reviewing an RPG or a 2D fighter (seriously… you think certain RPG-communities are angry? try annoying fans of Japanese 2D-fighters with a casual "this might not be for the masses, hence I'm playing it safe and giving it a 6"-review of a hardcore fighter).

So when you write a review of an RPG-game, the readers who matters are the ones who would be interested in buying one in the first place. Scoring a game lower because it's a hardcore RPG and you don't expect the imagined "mainstream gamer" in your head would like that, is like scoring a soccer managing game lower because you don't expect fans of FIFA would like a game where they don't actually get to play soccer themselves (IGN did this. The readers were not pleased, and IGN eventually had to withdraw their review).

So you need to give the Geneforge games the score they deserve, as hardcore RPGs. Because that's what they are, no matter if you're reviewing them on a RPG site or a mainstream site. If you review them on a mainstream site, you need to explain a good few things in the text, because you have to "sell it" (if you think it's good) to a wider audience. So you need to focus on different things than you would were you reviewing it for a hardcore RPG-site. But that's different from changing the score to suit the readers.
 
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Graphics , Combat , Magic , Quest wise it didn't add anything new to the genre either.

Funny: They NEVER intended to do so ...
 
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So if you're providing me with a score that's not based on you own opinions, but what you imagine I would like or not.

No. My score represents my opinion. But it will also not recommend a game on a site that is not read by people who appreciate those games. I will not pretend to be able to grade on some curve of someone else's opinion, that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that while Avernum games are 7-8/10 games for GameBanshee, they are not for GamerNode. I will still say "this is a good game for people who enjoy oldschool TB gameplay" in the conclusion of GN, but I will not grade it the same way as GB. Note that I'm this casual about it because this really only applies to the very nichie-est games like Avernum. I'd rate Borderlands or Dragon Age pretty much the same on both sites.

Everyone works like that, thing is usually the site staff is made up of the same target audience as their readers. Is it relevant that no one knows exactly what all readers are thinking? No, and it certainly does not make the reviewer's personal tastes the most important of all people on the site. Who gives a damn about my tastes, I'm not writing for me.

Our Risen review was around 2000 words (I didn't write it).

Mine is over 5000. I love my editorial freedom.

That's why we have pretty meaty conclusions at the end, and give out a score in the first place.

Which is the core problem of scores. I'd rather not give them at all.

Our readers are all kinds of people, and fans of all kinds of genres, but they all expect our reviewers to know what they're talking about, whether they're reviewing an RPG or a 2D fighter

But I doubt GN's editorial staff would even be interested in an offer to review Avernum, just like I reviewed Merchants of Brooklyn and Zeno Clash there because I can't for GB, it's not within the site's scope. And since the site never writes on it, its safe to assume people do not come to the site to read on it. Hence my example of it.

But that's different from changing the score to suit the readers.

Ugh. Look, let's say anyone else of GamerNode's editorial staff reviews Avernum. They'd hate it. They'd give it a 4 or 5 out of 10 and burn it to bits on the review. I'd give it a similar low score but point out its strengths in the review. You seem to be hammering on the fact that while most writers do this adaptation by default because they simply belong to the group, I prefer to stay focused on fact-based reviews with final scores adapted to the site I write for. That seems to be putting the cart in front of the horse, to me.

If I'd like to ego-stroke and just write on my self-aggrandized opinion I'd become a full-time professional game journalist for UGO or wherever. But the fact is, I prefer to write careful, fact-based analysis. And you wouldn't believe how many times that analysis gets lost in meaningless faffing about the score. I. Hate. Scores. That said, I recognize scores are a recommendation to the consumer that a lot of them feel validated to sail blind by. And when I recommend anything, either a game professional or music or a film in private life, I'd like to put in as many facts in the recommendation as I can so the person can make his own choice, but if he/she's not interested in facts and just wants a rec (aka "a score"), I'm not scoring for me, I'm scoring for him/her.
 
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Which is the core problem of scores. I'd rather not give them at all.

I completely agree - and what you said earlier really reinforces that. I've gotten into heated debates with editors about scores based on things that are 'too niche' for a certain site but brilliant for what they do ... and it is the same exact text, just arguing over a number. Silly, but in the end too many folks never really read the reviews, even those who say they do ... so I'm happy that more than half the reviews I do are now on sites that either have no score or a 'up/down' opinion.
 
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...and of course, some sites use scores as an indicator index or purposely for flood reviews quick referrencing or comparison, usually on the front news bits.

Kings Bounty: the Legend site did this in a flood moment way (though it is now locked) - the scores don't matter any longer after the review flood inertia fades.
Risen is another example still viewable..obviously.

http://www.worldofrisen.de/english/?PHPSESSID=ae6dc518fa47ea6bd5cb0831d374e1a57441e889

So there are some good uses of scores and for a purpose not to be dismissed at the flick of the wrist. :)
 
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So there are some good uses of scores and for a purpose not to be dismissed at the flick of the wrist. :)

I still don't see that as a 'good thing' ... scores are highly subjective and entirely without context. So even here the posts end up often looked at numbers attached to sites with text most folks don't read unless the number doesn't match their idea and then it is used to pummel the author.

Looking at the Risen thing, if you substituted 'Positive' or 'Negative' or 'Buy / Skip' or whatever for the numbers, it would give a solid feel for the tone without getting into the whole 'game X got 8.6 and game Y got 8.2 so game X is better'.

Sort of how games like Gothics and DivDiv and Troika stuff never percolates up because all retro summaries tend to use numeric metrics to decide what to pullout.
 
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Indeed txa1265, but as mentioned scores can also give an indication of the reviewer's mentality for forum readers and gamers to decide, judge evaluate - - if you get the point? - the fiasco with the Risen pc/console scores variation was very good example and prompted replies by rpgwatch members where the scores actually crossed the console/pc boundaries and this was indicated very clearly "at a glance" within the context of comparison?
 
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