NWN2 - Mysteries of Westgate Official Release Date!

I find that circumstances tend to be unique in almost every single instance of what's legally considered piracy - and as such, I find trying to pigeonhole the entire concept excessively shortsighted.
 
The only way around this is to stop bitching on forums (or at least not just bitch here) and write letters, emails, etc. to Atari, so they KNOW that people are interested in premium modules, but that the DRM is keeping them away.

You lot crack on with that if you want, personally i couldn't give a crap about this kind of drm and don't understand why people are getting their knickers in such a twist about it.

And I especially don't understand why they'd pick this game of all games to take a stand on. It's a small, independent studio, the reviews suggest it's an extremely deep and well crafted module of exactly the sort that we're all crying out for more of, they've had nothing but shit from their publisher all the way along and could really do with some support from the few people still interested in the game.

Plus they have NO influence whatsoever on Atari, if sales are low for this Atari won't even look at the reasons for it, the way they've treated the whole horrifically bungled release makes it absolutely clear that they simply don't give a crap about Ossian on any level. Atari has a lot of high budget releases it really cares about, take a stand on some of those if you need to.

Plus, and apologies if money really is that tight for some of you but . . . 10 dollars. TEN FREAKING DOLLARS. Sure, three activations only for people who play on a few different individual platforms might mean that if one wants to replay in a year or so then one might not be able to put it on the latest piece of hardware but still - TEN DOLLARS. It is not a high budget release that one only wants to purchase once, if a (15 hour +) game's good enough to want to play more than once then frankly a game's good enough to be worth paying 20 dollars for.

Or, as crpnut says, buy it now so Ossian get what they deserve and download a cracked copy if and when the drm ever becomes an issue.
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
London
I find that circumstances tend to be unique in almost every single instance of what's legally considered piracy - and as such, I find trying to pigeonhole the entire concept excessively shortsighted.

I think there's a lot of grey areas. Buying the game legally then downloading a cracked & drm free version - legally piracy, but morally fine. Buying the game legally then if the drm ever restricts, downloading a cracked & drm free version - again fine.

Any situation that involves playing the game without Ossian being paid for it though is, unequivocally, acting like a complete arsehole and any amount of huffing and puffing and pretending it's the publishers fault for making people act like arseholes is just complete, self serving bullshit denial.
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
London
I think there's a lot of grey areas. Buying the game legally then downloading a cracked & drm free version - legally piracy, but morally fine. Buying the game legally then if the drm ever restricts, downloading a cracked & drm free version - again fine.

Any situation that involves playing the game without Ossian being paid for it though is, unequivocally, acting like a complete arsehole and any amount of huffing and puffing and pretending it's the publishers fault for making people act like arseholes is just complete, self serving bullshit denial.

Thanks for that clear explanation ... that is pretty well how I feel. If you have never paid for it, you should never have played it - otherwise you have no moral standing.

And I find that people who 'play the piracy card' (say they'd sooner pirate than deal with DRM) are already predisposed to do so ... not always, but quite often. They are the ones who are to blame for 18,000 out of 120,000 Demigod connections beign from paid customers ...
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
14,911
You guys talked me into it, I'm buying. You're right -- it would be stupid and wrong to punish Ossian for Atari's idiocy. But I would like to mail Atari's CEO a big steaming turd to express how I feel about these shenanigans.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
8,540
Any situation that involves playing the game without Ossian being paid for it though is, unequivocally, acting like a complete arsehole and any amount of huffing and puffing and pretending it's the publishers fault for making people act like arseholes is just complete, self serving bullshit denial.

You don't sound like a very "grey area" aware person when you speak with words so emotionally laden.

Anyway, it's not my responsibility as a consumer to ensure that whoever has done the work, gets paid. That's out of my hand completely.

Often enough, the money (the REAL money) ends up with people who did little or no work - and that's hardly my fault.

What we can agree on, is that good work deserves compensation. I would gladly pay twice or thrice the standard price for any game worthy of being called good.

But there are so many factors involved in each incident - that I find it impossible to make a broad statement regarding the "ethical" nature of piracy.
 
You don't sound like a very "grey area" aware person when you speak with words so emotionally laden.

Why? Surely it's possible to recognise that some things fall into confusing grey areas, while other things just aren't ambiguous at all.

Anyway, it's not my responsibility as a consumer to ensure that whoever has done the work, gets paid. That's out of my hand completely.

Often enough, the money (the REAL money) ends up with people who did little or no work - and that's hardly my fault.

It's not your responsiblity to ensure that the money that you've been honest enough to pay is split fairly between the potential recipients but it is IMO your responsibility to be honest enough to pay for things that you use. That's the implied contract - producers try to make things worth consuming and consumers pay for what they consume.

What we can agree on, is that good work deserves compensation. I would gladly pay twice or thrice the standard price for any game worthy of being called good.

Indeed, which is what makes this whole furore so odd - if it's so good that one wants to play it so many times that the drm might potentially bite then $9.95 is cheap even if one pays it several times.

But there are so many factors involved in each incident - that I find it impossible to make a broad statement regarding the "ethical" nature of piracy.

I disagree. I would make the following broad statement - "It is unethical to play (beyond an initial trial) any game one has not paid for if there is a relatively easy way to pay for it"

That is the basic principle IMO. If beyond that the drm is intrusive, buy the game & then play a pirated copy. If the drm might lock you out at some point, buy it, play it until locked out then pirate a copy and play that. If you've bought it in the past and lost the disks but still paid at the time, pirate it. If it's an old game and you can't find any way of paying for it (or if the only ways are hugely overpriced ebay games that could take ages to find and wouldn't get anywhere near the developer's bottom line), pirate. If it's illegally available now but can't be bought yet, pirate it and pay later once it is. If it's never legally available then pirate away.

The underlying ethical principle is very, very simple. Try to pay for what you play, even if around that you do a bit of pirating for your own convenience.
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
London
You guys talked me into it, I'm buying. You're right -- it would be stupid and wrong to punish Ossian for Atari's idiocy. But I would like to mail Atari's CEO a big steaming turd to express how I feel about these shenanigans.

If you're going to the post office then curl one out for me while you're at it.

Not for the drm business, just for having sat on it for so long when there really was no need.
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
London
Atari's future will be interesting. They've sold their physical distribution branch to, I think, Namco Bandai.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
7,830
You lot crack on with that if you want, personally i couldn't give a crap about this kind of drm and don't understand why people are getting their knickers in such a twist about it.

I think I illustrated quite well how I might run out of 'licenses' very quickly with my current set up.

And I especially don't understand why they'd pick this game of all games to take a stand on.

For me, it's because it is the first time I have encountered it. Granted I am not as heavy a player as I used to be, but I've installed all the infinity games on more than 5 different machines over the years as well as most of the Ultima games, Wing Commander games, etc. I'm already on machine #2/3 (desktop and now laptop) on my NWN2/MotB. I'd be REALLY pissed if I couldn't install it again when I upgrade my machine in a year or so.

It's a small, independent studio,

No one is pissed at them. They're more a victim than anyone.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,353
Location
Austin, TX
Often enough, the money (the REAL money) ends up with people who did little or no work - and that's hardly my fault.

That's irrelevent. Whether or not it is going to the people that developed it doesn't matter. If you haven't paid for it, you shouldn't be playing it. The ONLY situation I can see otherwise is if a legel copy simply is not attainable.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,353
Location
Austin, TX
Oh hell, I feel another piracy thread in the making.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2007
Messages
5,347
Location
Taiwan
Atari's future will be interesting. They've sold their physical distribution branch to, I think, Namco Bandai.

That's correct. I'm still thinking that they are gonna merge some day.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
839
I think I illustrated quite well how I might run out of 'licenses' very quickly with my current set up.

Then buy it & pirate it later if the drm is causing an issue. Or buy it twice, I get the impression from your financial knowledge that $9.95 isn't going to be a major issue for you.

For me, it's because it is the first time I have encountered it.

They're more a victim than anyone

Things are bound to change with more digital only releases of this kind, it may be the first but I'm sure it won't be the last. And of all the games and development studios I have the most sympathy for Ossian because of all the shit they've been through for ages, drm or no drm the release delays have screwed them completely.

You say that they're more a victim than anyone as if it's some abstract thing happening to them that you're playing no part in, it's not. You could buy the game and take a stand with one of Atari's AAA releases that it'd actually care about. You could buy it and send them a letter registering your distaste (even telling them you've refused to buy it).
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
London
That's irrelevent. Whether or not it is going to the people that developed it doesn't matter. If you haven't paid for it, you shouldn't be playing it. The ONLY situation I can see otherwise is if a legel copy simply is not attainable.

That might not be relevant to you - but it's a pretty vital factor to me.

If my money ends up in the right hands, then all is good.

If not, then I would have no ethical boundary preventing me from not paying.

That said, I very rarely have the opportunity to detect where the money ends up, because greedy people are exceptionally good at justifying their greed. Often, developers are compensated by all kinds of sources - and I have no idea whether their funding partners have already made a deal and paid them. That's why I'm a strong supporter of paying for the games you enjoy.

That doesn't make broad statements any more correct or fair, though.

In effect, I pay for games without really knowing if I should.
 
Last edited:
Why? Surely it's possible to recognise that some things fall into confusing grey areas, while other things just aren't ambiguous at all.

That is possible in theory. In practice? Not too often, I would say.

It's not your responsiblity to ensure that the money that you've been honest enough to pay is split fairly between the potential recipients but it is IMO your responsibility to be honest enough to pay for things that you use. That's the implied contract - producers try to make things worth consuming and consumers pay for what they consume.

Honesty isn't a factor here.

Whatever contract people imagine isn't implicitly interesting to me.

As I said, good work should be compensated and if I can do that - I will.

I pay for games that I probably shouldn't pay for - but that's because I'd rather not risk having people not be compensated when they deserve it.

Indeed, which is what makes this whole furore so odd - if it's so good that one wants to play it so many times that the drm might potentially bite then $9.95 is cheap even if one pays it several times.

My point had no direct tie to this case.

I disagree. I would make the following broad statement - "It is unethical to play (beyond an initial trial) any game one has not paid for if there is a relatively easy way to pay for it"

Well, to be honest, I don't have ethics as a firm concept in my head. I try to look at every decision I make with as many factors as I can. I don't like restricting myself to principles, because they tend to confuse truth with perception of truth.

The underlying ethical principle is very, very simple. Try to pay for what you play, even if around that you do a bit of pirating for your own convenience.

Yeah, that's the trouble with principles. They're simple. The truth isn't always that simple.
 
Then buy it & pirate it later if the drm is causing an issue. Or buy it twice, I get the impression from your financial knowledge that $9.95 isn't going to be a major issue for you.

Which is exactly what I said I would do. Regardless, I shouldn't have to.

You say that they're more a victim than anyone as if it's some abstract thing happening to them that you're playing no part in, it's not. You could buy the game and take a stand with one of Atari's AAA releases that it'd actually care about. You could buy it and send them a letter registering your distaste (even telling them you've refused to buy it).

That would require me being interested in buying one of their other releases.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,353
Location
Austin, TX
That might not be relevant to you - but it's a pretty vital factor to me.

If my money ends up in the right hands, then all is good.

It's not your decision to make. If you don't want to play or buy fine, but you don't have the right to decide if you should pay for something that you acquire just because you don't like where the money is going.

If not, then I would have no ethical boundary preventing me from not paying.

Which means you have very loose ethics.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,353
Location
Austin, TX
That might not be relevant to you - but it's a pretty vital factor to me.

If my money ends up in the right hands, then all is good.

If not, then I would have no ethical boundary preventing me from not paying.

Sounds like flimsy bullshit to go around pretending you're morally acceptable to me ;)

Whether the deal the developer got with the publisher is good or fair or not they've still entered into it willingly themselves and that is the method that they've chosen for payment for their labours to be made, a choice you can't ignore and still (sensibly) pretend you've not crossed an ethical boundary.

Even if the developer has been paid everything already and receives absolutely nothing at all from any sales they will still want to be able to point to high sales figures when they're negotiating their next deal, unless the publisher has raped their daughter and run over their cat there are no situations where the developer would not prefer high sales figures.
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
2,351
Location
London
Back
Top Bottom