That is really not the point and I suggest you play U7/U7p2 if you want to see what I mean (if you haven't already). In U7 you probably have more gold than you can carry if you pick up gold, you break into houses for the sheer fun of it. A good world design can mean slipping into someone's house, finding a key hidden under a pot plant, opening the merchants hidden room with the key and finding a pair of magic gauntlets in his desk drawer.
D:OS D:OS has soured me on Kickstarter stretch goals
- Thread starter Drithius
- Start date
Divinity: Original Sin
That is really not the point and I suggest you play U7/U7p2 if you want to see what I mean (if you haven't already). In U7 you probably have more gold than you can carry if you pick up gold, you break into houses for the sheer fun of it. A good world design can mean slipping into someone's house, finding a key hidden under a pot plant, opening the merchants hidden room with the key and finding a pair of magic gauntlets in his desk drawer.
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That is the point.
What you want would be awsome - if the loot wasn't random. So I'd for the fun of it want to know what exactly is hidden in some locked drawer. But there is no fun knowing inside are random things I can get from any unlocked container, even a rabbithole.
Sorry. I can't be persuaded into importance of day/night changes in this game and you obviously can't understand why I say it's something that could only ruin the gaming experience here.
So wait for the mod. It'll happen sooner or later.
What you want would be awsome - if the loot wasn't random. So I'd for the fun of it want to know what exactly is hidden in some locked drawer. But there is no fun knowing inside are random things I can get from any unlocked container, even a rabbithole.
Sorry. I can't be persuaded into importance of day/night changes in this game and you obviously can't understand why I say it's something that could only ruin the gaming experience here.
So wait for the mod. It'll happen sooner or later.
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DArtagnan
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Random loot is definitely an issue. I'm hoping some talented modder will take the time to distribute loot manually.
The worst part of this random loot is that it's not generated at the beginning from a seed, but each time you open a container. That means "extra" random, and it means any reload will give you something else.
I'm hoping there's some share of non-random loot in the game?
The worst part of this random loot is that it's not generated at the beginning from a seed, but each time you open a container. That means "extra" random, and it means any reload will give you something else.
I'm hoping there's some share of non-random loot in the game?
All non-quest items (even unique ones) are leveled somewhat around your party level, so at least the level of an item is flexible.
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Generally speaking yes and depending on the experience (or lack thereof) of the developer an even more resounding YES.
However, Larian Studios has a lot of experience and one thing that seems to have been forgotten in the last few posts of you "defenders" is that Larian Studios was already on the home stretch of development when they launched the Kickstarter.
This wasn't like most KS games where development was in the conceptual phase. Development (minus polishing/QA/etc.) of the game was nearly finished.
So we have an experienced developer with a very advanced build of the software and certainly a very deep understanding of the capabilities of the engine, their tools, the "architecture" of the game, everything...
You can't tell me they did not know what it would take to implement the $1 million stretch goal features. I believe they knew exactly what it would take but for some reason chose to focus on other stuff.
I have admittedly no idea (not yet) how long D:OS has become but from what I've heard several hardcore RPGers have sunk well beyond 100+ hours into it and I've barely seen any "Yay! Finished!" posts yet.
If you ask me I'd rather have a 40+ hour RPG with the stretch goal features implemented than this kind of monster epic game (especially with the rather slow turn-based combat which is simply bound to get boring after a certain hour mark).
Seems to me like the resources were not ideally used(?). There is nothing wrong with a shorter but richer game in my book.
Yep. I may be a moron but at least when the next wave of KS rolls around I'm going to be +$60 richer than the non-morons
.This isn't about a "penalty". It's about that whole once bitten, twice shy, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me thing. I would feel like a real epic SUPER-MORON if I pledged a lot again in the hopes of helping to reach a certain feature level and if, later on, that dangling carrot got yanked once more. But I'm fine with being just a regular old moron. No need to go overboard with the whole moronism biz
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I can't know for sure as I'm playing GOG version so no time tracker, but I'm not finished (level 18 currently) and can estimate about 100 hours so far.
And I never restarted it! Made two characters, did think maybe I should go others, but no. It's fun this way.
And if you ask me, I'd rather have a monster epic RPG where monstrous epicness is not based on grinding than anything else. D:OS is exactly that. And because of that, I just couldn't care less for any stretch goals.
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DArtagnan
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Doesn't make a difference, really. Unless you honestly believe they've been deceiving you, in which case I don't know what to say.
Oh, so you DO believe they deliberately promised something they knew they'd never deliver.
You're calling them deceitful liars and you feel comfortable doing that, despite the game we've received.
Ok, then we just differ on that.
I don't agree, and I love huge games. I also don't get tired of them if the content is good, which a lot of people seem to think.
I also love in-depth combat if there are enough options and other things to do. I even completed ToEE despite there being almost nothing but combat, because the mechanics were so great - and I'm huge fan of D&D.
So far, D:OS has a ton of options and the combat system feels very rich and solid. I don't see myself getting bored, considering how much NPC interation, story content, world interaction and so on there seems to be.
Even so, a lot of the content could have been done before the stretch goals were announced, and it's actually possible that the few significant features that didn't make it in were actually really hard to plan for with success, and that they fully intended to make it happen.
They still might make it happen.
But, ok, you think they were deceiving people.
It's really the heart of where we differ, as I'm not detecting the slightest incling of deception on their part.
I'm just seeing passionate developers doing their very best to make use of what resources they had.
Did they make mistakes? Every human being on Earth does that every day - so yeah.
Very few people on Earth make mistakes and yet still produce fantastic RPGs full of depth, content and complexity.
Yep. I may be a moron but at least when the next wave of KS rolls around I'm going to be +$60 richer than the non-morons
Yes, you'll be $60 richer and if there are enough morons around - you'll have a weaker game or no game at all to show for it.
I hope you enjoy spending that money on one of the other countless huge and fantastic RPGs made under the publisher model, or those in never-never land where mistakes aren't made.
Good luck - and congrats for holding on to your beloved money.
This isn't about a "penalty". It's about that whole once bitten, twice shy, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me thing. I would feel like a real epic SUPER-MORON if I pledged a lot again in the hopes of helping to reach a certain feature level and if, later on, that dangling carrot got yanked once more. But I'm fine with being just a regular old moron. No need to go overboard with the whole moronism biz
Yes, you're clearly fine not helping to support great games - and the reason you're a moron is that you enjoy holding on to trivial irrational principles more than great games.
But you're honest about it, which is always helpful
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I did NOT say that at all. I said "I believe they knew exactly what it would take but for some reason chose to focus on other stuff."
You apparently deliberately chose to interpret this in a deceitful and lying way against me (see, I can play that card, too
).Seriously, I have read Swen's reasoning for cutting the $1 million stretch goal features and he gave a reasonable explanation. You know, they DID choose to focus on other stuff. So how is that a lie? I actually just repeated the explanation that was given to us. Nothing more, nothing less.
Ah, we're getting closer now. Instead of the idiotic accusations with regard to me accusing them of deception (which I never did) you seem to have realized that we are really trying to discuss a (IMO -given the context- rather serious) mistake that they have made. I wouldn't brush it off that easily, however. As for the reasons I think I have made my point clear earlier in the thread.
Oh, Mr. Know-It-All already knows how I am going to spend my saved cash. Impressive.
Good luck - and congrats for holding on to your beloved money.
Yes, you're clearly fine not helping to support great games - and the reason you're a moron is that you enjoy holding on to trivial irrational principles more than great games.
But you're honest about it, which is always helpful
Talk about irrational... hmmm... YES!
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DArtagnan
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I did NOT say that at all. I said "I believe they knew exactly what it would take but for some reason chose to focus on other stuff."
You apparently deliberately chose to interpret this in a deceitful and lying way against me (see, I can play that card, too
Seriously, I have read Swen's reasoning for cutting the $1 million stretch goal features and he gave a reasonable explanation. You know, they DID choose to focus on other stuff. So how is that a lie? I actually just repeated the explanation that was given to us. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, that's actually what you did say.
If you believe they KNEW what it would take (= certain knowledge at the time of making the promise) - and yet DID NOT implement it, they've deliberately deceived people, haven't they?
Unless you're agreeing with me in that they made a mistake when it comes to what the ENTIRE game would require and how to plan for every single feature in a perfect way so they could deliver everything on time without significant bugs. Because that's what you seem to demand of them.
Unless they're so incredibly stupid they don't actually know if they can do what they KNOW it takes - which would make them sort of retarded.
You can't imply something like that and pretend you're not accusing them. Well, obviously you can, but it's not working.
No, I don't know they focused on other stuff to the extent that they didn't try their best here. They likely focused on the entire game, so that proves nothing at all.
Maybe you don't want to accuse them, but then you'd have to try another way of wording your argument.
Maybe what you're saying is that they THOUGHT they knew what it took, but they were wrong - and they shouldn't have promised it - in hindsight. That's the human part that I'm arguing.
Yes, they've made mistakes. I'm saying mistakes are inevitable with a product like this.
That's my position and it's not new - it's been my exact position from my first post in this thread.
You're saying mistakes aren't inevitable at all, and that they were fully aware of what these unimplemented features would require - meaning they knew they weren't going to make it in.
Conclusively, you're calling them liars.
If not, then you have to acknowledge they didn't quite know how much it would take - and that they simply overshot their estimates or made honest mistakes like is the norm with every single significant game in the world.
Think of it as a suggestion
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greywolf00
Keeper of the Watch
Complete tangent but you can use Raptor to track hours for non Steam games if it interests you.
@Joxer
I reached 100+ hours yesterday, too (level 16) , I'm searching the Wizard now.
(I fiddled around 10 hours with the alpha)
I reached 100+ hours yesterday, too (level 16) , I'm searching the Wizard now.
(I fiddled around 10 hours with the alpha)
One of you guys needs to play long enough to pass me I've never even hit level 8 yet, but I've made 30 or so Cyseal runs.
Did they ever patch crafting so that you can craft specific bonuses to items? It was pretty random pre-release. In other words, you would take two branches, and make a staff but had no choice in what type of staff was created, etc.
I miss charms and charm slots.
I've never even hit level 8 yet, but I've made 30 or so Cyseal runs.Did they ever patch crafting so that you can craft specific bonuses to items? It was pretty random pre-release. In other words, you would take two branches, and make a staff but had no choice in what type of staff was created, etc.
I miss charms and charm slots.
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No because as you rightly pointed out I believe they KNEW it but then chose to focus on other stuff because that other stuff obviously had a higher priority for them. Just as Swen put it when he wrote his post explaining the reasons for the cut.
Out of nowhere, you are all of a sudden making a much bigger fuss about this than it is including personal attacks and insults.
No, you're once again putting words in my mouth and implying things totally out of context just to suit your vision that I am accusing LS of lies and deceit.
For example, if you scroll up and read one of my previous posts I'm suggesting that these kinds of mistakes should be avoided at all costs. Nowhere have I said anything about the inevitability of mistakes.
Look, just a quick summary of what I meant: When they came up with the KS stretch goal I imagine that LS must have had an idea about how this can be achieved. So they KNEW what it would take then.
Then, a few months later, other issues required more attention. Swen never went into detailed specifics so it's pointless to speculate what exactly kept them from implementing the stretch goal features but whatever it was it must have been important enough to swing the axe. So they focused on other stuff.
That's what I said. Just in a much shorter sentence.
Where exactly is the accusation of deceit and lies here? Right. Nowhere.
I believe I pointed out in a reasonable fashion why I deem it important that they avoid making such mistakes in the future. Because it will cost them money and customers. That is all I ever said on the subject and then along comes you and creates some weird theories about accusations of lies and deceit. Wat?
Jesus H Christ… inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale, slowly, deep breath… aaahh… I feel much better now
.And where exactly did I EVER say otherwise because that is (almost) exactly what I do acknowledge except the part with the "didn't quite know how much" because I am convinced that Larian is smarter than that. They wouldn't make up concrete stretch goal features without knowing -from experience and from sitting down with the leads and discussing the project schedule etc.- what it will take. Then other stuff took priority. OK. Shit happens. But it shouldn't happen again because otherwise everything will go down the shitter if you disappoint your customers by not following up on past promises. That's the gist of the matter.
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DArtagnan
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Ah, so they made the mistake when they didn't realise other things would have to take priority later on?
That's not human or common at all, now is it?
It really does sound like we agree, you just seem a lot less lenient about humans being humans.
Not uncommon.
Not really my style, so I can't agree.
When I say you're a moron, I don't actually mean it. It's just my abrasive way of making a point.
You seem pretty smart.
As for calling them liars, that was another way to get you to realise the ignorance of your argument. Working yet? You still have to pick one, you know. They're either liars - or they're human. If they're human, you have to think about why you're so pissed about that - and why that's so stupid to be pissed about in this particularly case, when the end result is D:OS - a game that's almost 90% on Metacritic.
Not a miracle for an AAA game, but for an old-school partially crowdfunded game? Yes, a miracle. Yet… you're pissed at them. YOU ARE A MORON. Though, not really
So, no insult intended. But if I do come off that way, I'm sorry - though not really. I guess I just like to provoke every now and again. It works
I'm actually a darling once you get to know me, which I admit is very hard through the screen with my way of debating. I'll live with being despised, though
At all costs? What exactly does that mean in this case. What kind of cost should they have paid to include the stretch goals - or to not provide any significant ones?
I'm curious - WHAT do you know for a fact they could have done that would have been better for sure?
Semantic confusion between us then, because in my world knowing what something will take doesn't mean forgetting the context within which it will take something.
As in, if they know precisely what it takes to include day/night cycles - they also know that in the context of developing this specific game, meaning they can't know - because they're not psychic.
They're human and made a human mistake - and, very likely, did the right thing and focused on what they knew they had to, to make the game a hit with their audience. Right?
This is what you take such issue with. That's what you're like, apparently.
Jesus H Christ… inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale, slowly, deep breath… aaahh… I feel much better now
As I said, it's just my style. I don't mean anything by it.
You seem reasonably informed and you're probably a nice guy. But what you're saying is bullshit, in this case.
So, I gotta point that out somehow, you know?
They're human. You don't really want to know what human beings are capable of, in terms of mistakes, do you?
Think of yourself. You're a smart guy, right?
Have you ever done something with your heart that was utterly and supremely stupid?
But you did it for the right reasons, right?
No need to stop "supporting" yourself. Just accept that you're human and look at the results of that.
If you make something like D:OS by following your heart, I'll certainly forgive you
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Sacred_Path
Guest
Exactly. In this case we got an estimate of what was needed to be able to implement a certain feature (I don't remember the exact amount when that stretch goal was announced) that didn't hold true. Since it's my responsibility to manage my expanses I can't call it theft, but I can hold people accountable for their statements. And of course, if I give more money to that same group of people again, that could be called irresponsible.
Part of the problem IMO is the lack of transparency in these estimations. I can only guess, but guessing I'm rather sure they went with a very conservative estimation of what was needed. IOW, I'd rather have someone asking for $400k and being sure they can implement the feature unless insurmountable technical problems arise rather than asking for $200k to give people more of an incentive to up their pledges. It's a thin line to walk.
Drithius
Magic & Loss
Yet another thread sidetracked into oblivion.
This isn't just about one or two features cut, which would be annoying but forgivable in the grand scheme of things. This is about their last three stretch goals either being cut altogether or being watered down to the point of irrelevancy. Plus cut content. Plus cut digital & physical goods.
As a person who spent $100 on the CE, my additional money (in good faith) was pretty much pissed away and if Larian ever push another Kickstarter, I'll pledge the minimum - no more. And I'll most definitely be more wary even with non-Larian projects.
And, to be candid, Dart, I'd appreciate the argument you're trying to make more if it came from someone such as HiddenX, who pledged an assload of money. But you never even backed the project and you're on here lauding the damn thing in hindsight.
This isn't just about one or two features cut, which would be annoying but forgivable in the grand scheme of things. This is about their last three stretch goals either being cut altogether or being watered down to the point of irrelevancy. Plus cut content. Plus cut digital & physical goods.
As a person who spent $100 on the CE, my additional money (in good faith) was pretty much pissed away and if Larian ever push another Kickstarter, I'll pledge the minimum - no more. And I'll most definitely be more wary even with non-Larian projects.
And, to be candid, Dart, I'd appreciate the argument you're trying to make more if it came from someone such as HiddenX, who pledged an assload of money. But you never even backed the project and you're on here lauding the damn thing in hindsight.
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DArtagnan
Guest
HiddenX would never make such an argument, he's too polite for that.
All I can tell you is that I've spent more money on crap than most, and I simply am not particularly invested in my money. What can I say? It's not very important to me - and I'm anything but rich.
The thing that's important in this case is what people have gotten by pledging OR simply buying it.
I can't fathom the dissatisfaction except if it's on principle or pure crankiness.
It makes no sense at all.
Recently, I've spent:
~100£ on Elite Dangerous Alpha - Turns out it's way too simplistic for my tastes.
150$ on ArcheAge Alpha - which has been a HUUUUGE disappointment.
~100$ on EverQuest Next Landmark Alpha - Turns out it's got nothing to do with EQNext, which I thought it did. I have 0% interest in Landmark, so that's down the drain.
~250$ on Star Citizen Alpha - This is very promising, and one of the few games that might actually deliver.
A TON of smaller Early Access titles - almost none of which I'm going to play.
Are you telling me I'm incapable of stating an unbiased opinion without having pledged? Think again.
The game is great - and it's more than a lot of people were hoping for. You're focusing on the negative and you're punishing them for that. It's counterproductive. It's stupid.
There's no way around it, sorry.
I mean, you of all people who spent I don't know how much money on an EQ subscription? You think the developers poured as much heart, soul and passion post-release as D:OS have done during development? Oh my.
I DO NOT understand your position on spending money, that's for damn sure.
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Someone who is into crafting can answer on this unless you want me to try it once again (I still have unspent many points on all characters).
I dropped crafting because it's IMO overpowered, rush level 5 and you make things on par with legendary items. When I saw what happens, I reloaded and opted not to craft till the end of the game if the final fights are too hard - I'm playing on normal and don't need lowering game difficulty with crafting. Also I'm not repairing anything myself. I'm paying in shops for item repairs or am selling them. Not because I'm stupid, but because if I wanted to play on easy, I'd play on easy.
On hard difficulty, sure, the first thing I'd rush is crafting.
What I do know is that patches, although it's not stated in details, changed many things in crafting. For better or for worse, dunno, but hopefully if it's not nerfed yet, it will be soon.
One thing so noone thinks I'm saying this is a minus.
Crafting design in this game is awsome.
It's just… Currently the benefit from it in this game compared to other skills is too much.
And also, I'm not talking about crafting quest items (whiskey, poisoned cheese)!
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Same here - playing on normal without crafting.
There's more than enough loot in this game.
In my second playthrough I'll play on hard level with crafting.
There's more than enough loot in this game.
In my second playthrough I'll play on hard level with crafting.