I read what you write. Since Arcanum is a hybrid system, you should remove it from your list of RTwP games.
From you:
I know there are many TB RPGs, but very few that are regarded as equal to or better than non-TB games, which is why I specifically said top 10 lists. If you read the top 10 list thread here, some games appear a great deal more than others:
You included Arcanum there, which means you consider it a non-TB game. It's a hybrid game, so it should simply be excluded - as we don't know how people are playing it.
Why quote me if you can't even read what you quoted? Who said anything about RTwP? That quote doesn't include it at all. It's basically TB vs anything else in that quote, and that's how it was intended. I did not, nor have I ever, included Arcanum in any "list of RTwP" games. Arcanum and M&M are mentioned because they offer a combat system for both crowds, which means they're simply in the "multiple" category, and certainly not exclusively in TB or RT or RTwP categories. It's really quite logical.
I know you don't like TB combat, which is probably the reason you have such a hard time accepting that others REALLY do love TB combat.
You still seem to be ignoring that TB combat was very rare for a long period of time - and that a combat system isn't the entire game.
I don't find it hard to accept that at all. I just find it odd that the TB crowd seems to consider mostly non-TB games as their favorites.
As for TB being rare - yes it was, yet it also dominated for a very long period of time, something RTwP has never done. It was used for a few years by two companies or some such thing, so you can hardly bring that up as a striking argument.
I really don't understand why you're including games like System Shock or Gothic. Such games are driven by action combat - and are largely based around visual immersion and exploration. Their entire design would fall apart with a TB combat system, as it would completely break the flow of the game.
You should be focusing on games that would work well with both RT and TB combat, in my opinion.
What the? Why I include this and that? I didn't include anything, I just counted! It's simple statistics. It shouldn't be hard to read a list and see how many votes each game got.
I have NO Idea why you're overlooking the super favorable responses games like Wasteland 2, Shadowrun and D:OS are getting.
Are people lying when they're saying they love playing them?
What about games like Bard's Tale and Wasteland (the original). They're turn-based as well. Lots of people include them in their favorite RPGs. I certainly include Bard's Tale.
Some people did include them yes. Wasteland and Bard's Tale got about 2-3 votes each, but not enough to make the top 20. They're basically on par with a very large number of games that all have 2-3 votes. The original Pool of Radiance for example, IWD2, KotOR2, NWN2, Realms of Arcania and so on and so forth. Massive list of games that got mentioned a few times here and there.
First of all, if we're speculating, I'd say games like Wasteland 2 and D:OS would be present in a new list as well.
All of those games except for Dragon Age have action combat. They would have to be completely different designs to work as TB combat. Mass Effect does have a semi-RTwP system, but it doesn't work very well. I doubt many people love Mass Effect because of the combat system.
You might as well say that Call of Duty is proof that TB combat isn't what people want in a FPS. Well, duh!
Since you're including action-driven RPGs, why don't we just include RPG strategy games like Master of Magic, Master of Orion 2, X-Com, Jagged Alliance 2, Age of Wonders, Heroes of Might and Magic, and so on? That would seem to be only fair.
How many of the utmost classics have RT combat? That's right, none of them.
Again, you're including games with overall designs that wouldn't work well with TB combat at all.
I don't know if you've noticed, but a lot of us said "it depends" when asked which system we prefer - and we did that for a reason.
I don't see anything odd about it at all, I really don't. There's a boatload of essential factors you need to include if you want to "prove" RT is actually what people want in all of their RPGs, and you're never going to succeed, because people really do mean it when they say they love TB combat.
Like I said, I didn't include or exclude anything. That list is the top 20 of the Watch.
And, in case you missed it, I did count the "party based, isometric RPG" games in a list of their own:
Real time: 1
Turn based: 2
Real time with pause: 3
Multiple: 1
If you can't be bothered to identify the games, I'll list them for you:
RT: Ultima 7
TB: Fallout 1 & 2
RTwP: BG1, BG2 and PST.
Multiple: Arcanum
That list contains the most popular isometric, party based RPGs of the Watch. Simple as that. And I'm not trying to prove a point about which system people prefer, as that's the intention of the poll. I don't argue numbers. I just find it odd that it doesn't correspond with the actual games people seem to prefer, even within a series.
Take Ultima for example: Ultima 7 absolutely destroys the others in the polls, it's bigger than the rest of the series combined. Yet.. the combat system is a half-baked RT system which I think it's safe to say wasn't all that great.
Oh, but there are other factors! Of course there are, but given how much time is spent fighting in the Ultimas, the combat system can't just be ignored. It is no doubt an important factor, yet I can't identify what the impact is. Perhaps it maintains immersion better, which was always a strong side of the Ultimas.
Like I said, I don't know why this is the case. I'm sure there are many reasons, but I still find it rather interesting, and odd, that there doesn't seem to be much of a connection between combat system and game preference, despite how much time is spent fighting.
For that particular quote, I was talking about RPG strategy games.
If they had been mentioned by anyone, I would've counted them. I counted everything I came across. It's not up to me to act as a filter, who am I to say what defines an RPG for the people voting? We've tried to agree on that term for ages on the Watch, and we don't seem able to.
