How come I don't like BG2 ??

Baldur's Gate 2 = The Beatles

The Sims = Britney Spears
 
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
137
I don't dare ask what = Paris H!! :)
 
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
12,806
Location
Australia
If you are reinstalling it I believe there is a user made mod if you want to play it with the 3E rules. You would need a copy of IWD2.

Of course, there is a mod to play BG1 and 2 in BG2.

When I last looked into it about a year ago the 3E mod (icewind gate?) was abandoned and required a lot of console fiddling to be used.

BG1 in the BG2 engine using the Tutu mod (from www.pocketplane.net) OTOH works quite well, but there are frame rate issues in some areas.

There's also a mod called Baldurs gate trilogy that tries to combine the games into one (and unlike Tutu requires a full install of each game) but I havent tried that one.

As far as the games go I find them to be great for MP, somewhat overrated in SP, but they did revitalize the genre at a dire point of time... Overall solid titles whose issues (spending lots of time dispelling protections in BG2, overall travel time to story length, some engine issues, partially annoying NPCs in the brat Imoen and the communist Nalia, the mildly suburban feel of the implementation of Forgotten Realms) I personally am able to overlook:) Not the VERY greatest RPGs though.
 
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
2,013
For me, BG2 was the pinnacle of both CRPG's and computer games in general. No game since has drawn me in like it, and I suspect none ever will. The Infinity engine combined with the unbalanced but fun 2E ruleset made for great tactical goodness, if it isn't the greatest CRPG of all time, it's certianly the best squad based fantasy combat simulator ever made! I mean come on, the first time a lich cast time stop tell me you weren't in awe.

The story and characters... well those are personal taste. This thread reminds me of that old Far Side cartoon with the three guys sitting in a room by themselves... the caption read "The Didn't Like Dances With Wolves Club". If you didn't like BG2, fair enough... just understand you are in the extreme minority. The game is consistently the #1 ranked CRPG on just about every "best of" list for good reason, it's an amazing accomplishment in computer gaming design.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
10
it's certianly the best squad based fantasy combat simulator ever made! I mean come on, the first time a lich cast time stop tell me you weren't in awe.

No, that'd be Temple Of Elemental Evil, or even the IWD games. BG2 was a rock/paper/scissors game when it came to any real application of tactics. Melee, while powerful, was very simple in application, as was ranged combat. Anything tactical came down to spell use, which always involved removing protections and whatnot.
ToEE and IWD made better use of all class abilities in combat. And no, I think the first time a lich came after me I was annoyed. Probably because I found him in the *wall of a bloody tavern* of all places.

This thread reminds me of that old Far Side cartoon with the three guys sitting in a room by themselves... the caption read "The Didn't Like Dances With Wolves Club". If you didn't like BG2, fair enough... just understand you are in the extreme minority. The game is consistently the #1 ranked CRPG on just about every "best of" list for good reason, it's an amazing accomplishment in computer gaming design.

Well, the thing with that cartoon was that Larson was poking fun at the tendency of people to follow the popular herd so to speak.....
 
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
658
That's a great summary of my BG 2 frustrations. In my case both of Bioware's initial assumptions were very much mistaken and broke continuity with my BG 1 game. Personally I'd sooner run a sword through Jar Jar Minsc, Jaheria and Jan Jansen than spend five nano-seconds in their odious company. In anycase I'd already killed them in the previous game.

It's a problem with character-driven RPGs in general. Satisfying intra-party interaction relies on highly subjective concepts such as emotional resonance or sense of humour. With fixed NPCs there's no practical way of pleasing everyone. However it could work if the player was allowed to generate NPC personalities at start-up.

I guess I got lucky. I like Imoen as well as Jaheria (though I did intentionally kill off her whining husband early in BG1!). Because of the way I played BG1, BG2 flowed seamlessly for me. I can understand why you might not like it if you had played BG1 in a different way.

The funny thing for me was that I only bought BG1 because I wanted to tide myself over for Ultima IX. I never got more than a few hours into U9, but I played BG1 3 times through (and BG2 twice)!

My only frustration with BG1 was that with the caps they had in place initially, I found that I was not powerful enough to beat the guy at the end (don't remember his name). Part of that is probably that I am pretty bad about using special feats and abilities, and more just arm my characters to the max and use lots of spells!
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,353
Location
Austin, TX
No, that'd be Temple Of Elemental Evil, or even the IWD games. BG2 was a rock/paper/scissors game when it came to any real application of tactics. Melee, while powerful, was very simple in application, as was ranged combat. Anything tactical came down to spell use, which always involved removing protections and whatnot.
ToEE and IWD made better use of all class abilities in combat. And no, I think the first time a lich came after me I was annoyed. Probably because I found him in the *wall of a bloody tavern* of all places.

TOEE was a buggy mess. Sure the mod community fixed it, but you can't compare it to any of the five infinity engine games. I didn't find the combat better than in BG2 or IWD at all. The realtime with pause was revolutionary, and except for the hardcore RPGer or AD&D guy the games don't compare in the least. TOEE was a commercial and critical failure, it's hardcore fan base notwithstanding.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
10
TOEE was a buggy mess. Sure the mod community fixed it, but you can't compare it to any of the five infinity engine games. I didn't find the combat better than in BG2 or IWD at all. The realtime with pause was revolutionary, and except for the hardcore RPGer or AD&D guy the games don't compare in the least. TOEE was a commercial and critical failure, it's hardcore fan base notwithstanding.

Um... hardly the point. Gallifrey's response was to your claim that BG2 was "certianly the best squad based fantasy combat simulator ever made!" And I agree with him: ToEE kicks any infinity engine game's ass in this category.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
850
Location
CA, USA
I have to agree - I never did get far in TOEE, everytime I started it something else came up and that starter town was SOOOOO boring.

But the combat ROCKED - it was just so much more fun to play than any of the IE games (and I loved IWD and BG2).

Also have to give TOEE a nod for graphics - I would not mind playing a game today with that engine.

Someday I'll try TOEE again (currently giving IWD 2 a 3rd chance....fun game until that stupid ice palace).
 
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
775
Location
NYC
Um... hardly the point. Gallifrey's response was to your claim that BG2 was "certianly the best squad based fantasy combat simulator ever made!" And I agree with him: ToEE kicks any infinity engine game's ass in this category.

Indeed. I'm not making any claim that ToEE was as good as BG2, it wasn't, but it was a considerably more successful fantasy combat simulator.
I love the Infinity Engine, and it more than served well in the IWD games, so it certainly works as a combat engine, but BG2 did not deliver good combat, it was unbalanced and lacked a well-rounded approach.
In ToEE we had the full raft of rule implementations for combat which made it very much a fantasy combat simulator.
 
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
658
ToEE wasn't really that well balanced either. Once you have a couple of weapons fully enchanted every battle is pretty much a cake walk. ToEE certainly had one of the best combat systems ever though.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
3,090
Location
Sigil
ToEE wasn't really that well balanced either. Once you have a couple of weapons fully enchanted every battle is pretty much a cake walk. ToEE certainly had one of the best combat systems ever though.

This is true. There are some weapon/feat builds that just clean up, though I rather suspect that's a flaw of the D&D rules system rather than being unique to ToEE's programming, but I could be wrong.
I never got into the enchanting and weapon-making aspect of the game, however, so I didn't see those particular exploits regarding a couple of rather over-powered weapons. I do know that my dwarf fighter with a polearm was a nightmare however (the polearm combat was unbalanced, you got all the advantages and none of the disadvantages).
But yes, in terms of how the game played out with the options available to you in a fight, there hasn't been anything in the RPG field to rival it in recent years.
 
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
658
Um... hardly the point. Gallifrey's response was to your claim that BG2 was "certianly the best squad based fantasy combat simulator ever made!" And I agree with him: ToEE kicks any infinity engine game's ass in this category.

Wow, TOEE?? I liked that game, but it paled in comparison to any of the IE games. I just couldn't stand the fact that the entire game took place in a single dungeon, and a very generic one at that. It was also one of the buggiest games I've ever played when it was first released.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,138
Location
Florida, US
No, that'd be Temple Of Elemental Evil, or even the IWD games. BG2 was a rock/paper/scissors game when it came to any real application of tactics. Melee, while powerful, was very simple in application, as was ranged combat. Anything tactical came down to spell use, which always involved removing protections and whatnot.
ToEE and IWD made better use of all class abilities in combat. And no, I think the first time a lich came after me I was annoyed. Probably because I found him in the *wall of a bloody tavern* of all places.

Hmmm, BG2 was rock/paper/scissors, but IWD was not? Having played all the IE games, I certainly don't remember it that way, especially if you're talking about the first IWD. The melee was identical to the BG games, but there weren't as many spells in IWD. The spell casting was also a lot more tactical in BG2 with all the protection and counter spells. IWD in comparison, almost always came down to casting an area of effect spell against a mob, and then sending in fighters to mop up.


Well, the thing with that cartoon was that Larson was poking fun at the tendency of people to follow the popular herd so to speak

Yes, but sometimes people are following because it's actually that good.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,138
Location
Florida, US
Wow, TOEE?? I liked that game, but it paled in comparison to any of the IE games. I just couldn't stand the fact that the entire game took place in a single dungeon, and a very generic one at that. It was also one of the buggiest games I've ever played when it was first released.

I'm speaking *soley* from the perspective that ToEE's combat model is superior to the IE model. I'm making no claims of superiority based on game content.

Hmmm, BG2 was rock/paper/scissors, but IWD was not? Having played all the IE games, I certainly don't remember it that way, especially if you're talking about the first IWD. The melee was identical to the BG games, but there weren't as many spells in IWD. The spell casting was also a lot more tactical in BG2 with all the protection and counter spells. IWD in comparison, almost always came down to casting an area of effect spell against a mob, and then sending in fighters to mop up.

I found that in BG2, it was the same patterns over and over again with spell "tactics". The IWD games offered more diversity in how one approached a combat scenerio in regards to which spells and which class strengths and abilities were used. I actually liked the spartan spell selection of IWD more than the smorgasboard of magic in BG2, maybe I found it more accessible and less aggrivating.
Now, IWD2 was the more successful in the criteria I'm using here. IWD wasn't quite as diverse, but still I found the combat grittier and more engaging.

Yes, but sometimes people are following because it's actually that good.

Yes. But that's not the point of the cartoon, which is what I was commenting on.
 
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
658
Interesting discussion--and I have to agree w/ Gallifrey and others about the combat. Though I remember a few orchestrated battles in BG2 that are very involving and challenging, the essence of the combat is pretty formulaic high level dnd ratkilling. But I wouldn't think combat would be the main attraction for most anyway.

For some reason I thought this was an older thread and so in not paying attention to it, I've spared everyone my long involved opinions on the BGs 1 & 2- can't have that ;)---LTTP as I am, I'll try to keep it brief.

Of the Baldur's Gate series, I enjoyed BG2 the most, but the overwhelming memory I have of it is the ungodly length of the game when you factor in all the possible quests, which of course as an anal completist, I always do and get totally bogged down in the myriad sidequests. My hat's off to anyone who's finished this game through ToB. NPC interaction and variety, the strength of the IE games, is also something of a weakness here, with the proliferating backstories to pursue in all directions of the map. And I have to say my relationship with Imoen and Jaheira was similar to Dhruin's. Occasionally I get a craving for that kind of IE experience and I'll fire the game up, but there is no finishing it for me...my interest lags out and I move on to something else.

So, while I got many enjoyable hours of play from the game, I find it to be too sandboxy and non-linear in the long run to hold my interest. I can understand those who put it at the top of their lists, though. It probably comes closer to fulfilling the term 'epic' than most cRPGs.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
7,834
Back
Top Bottom