Bethesda Softworks - Elder Scrolls MMO Rumours

Lemonhead said:

Aren't Bioware and Bethesda getting into the MMO-business a bit too late? The ship has sailed, no? From a money-making standpoint that is. Correct me if I'm wrong but monthly subscriptions seem to on the way out, so making craploads of money on MMO's isn't as easy anymore I would guess.

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WOW seems to be going strong. I'm not so sure about WAR. Last time I checked they were struggling to make a dent.

Speaking of WOW, why aren't people bored of it yet? I've never played that game, but there is no way I could ever keep playing a game for years on end. I would be bored out of my skull.

I love MMOs, but this part I hope it's just for the "uninitiated"...
"Bethesda has "tens and tens of millions of dollars" and "close to a hundred people"working on a "secret" "World Of Warcraft" type MMO"

I hope the "WoW type MMO" means it's an MMO, and not an MMO just like WoW. WoW may be popular, but it's as simple as it can get.
I hope they take the good things about TES games, i.e., item and spell crafting, that's the thing I liked the most about TES.
The WoW model is not only too simple, it's antiquated and copied all over the place. SW:TOR is finally taking a different approach, I hope whatever they're working on also takes a different approach. I'm sick tired of the 'Kill 10 bears' and 'bring me 10 phoenix feathers' quests.

JDR13 said:

Bethesda has the ability to make great games, they've already proved that. Morrowind was fantastic, and I think Fallout 3 is pretty good as well. Hopefully they will learn from the mistakes they made with Oblivion, and make TES V a better game.

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a) the Morrowind and Oblivion design teams were radically different, not only in composition but design philosophy. One (Morrowind) was concerned with the creation of a more "hardcore" RPG that would appeal to the niche they had built with Daggerfall. The other (Oblivion) pursued certain trends that would open them up to a broader demographic (hence the term "dumbing down").

b) We'll have to agree to disagree when it comes to Fallout 3, mate. I'm not arguing its merits as a Fallout game, nor as a game itself. Those are entirely unique points. No, my primary complaint is its emphasis on action-over-roleplaying that (again, my opinion) severely detracts from the experience. When you discuss the ability of a development team to create a new RPG and their latest success is clearly an Action game, that puts a damper on my enthusiasm for anything they might churn out.

c) I lack your faith in the ability of either Todd or Emil to so drastically shift their gameplay design philosophy for one reason: they made a bloody LOAD of cash off Oblivion. Why would they change back to the more "old-school" (or what have you) approach Morrowind took? Why attempt a niche RPG? If anything, they're likely to churn out a smaller gameworld with bigger explosions (figuratively speaking) and more bloom (literally speaking). Why? Because that's what the lowest common demographic, the console-crowd, enjoys.

It's expected, but very disapointing if true (which im quite sure it is). I'd much rather see them doing a singel player TES. MMO's are so... soulless and lacking in the little details that makes Bethesda's games really great. I mean c'mon, a TES game without mods?? I can't even imagine playing such a game.

themadhatter said:

c) I lack your faith in the ability of either Todd or Emil to so drastically shift their gameplay design philosophy for one reason: they made a bloody LOAD of cash off Oblivion. Why would they change back to the more "old-school" (or what have you) approach Morrowind took? Why attempt a niche RPG? If anything, they're likely to churn out a smaller gameworld with bigger explosions (figuratively speaking) and more bloom (literally speaking). Why? Because that's what the lowest common demographic, the console-crowd, enjoys.

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One could argue that so many people bought Oblivion because of its pretty looks and marketing hype, not the Consolish UI and piss poor list of skills. So from my angle there's no real reason not to build something that looks good, gets bunch of hype, but also has the deeper skill system and hopefully a more intresting premise then trying to close hundreds of hell gates that keep popping up everywhere.

I will donate another $10 if the mods make sure news on Elder Scrolls + MMO never appears on this site again.

I don't have time for MMO addictions (anymore), sorry Beth.

And I want ES: V. As much as I bash Oblivion, I love Morrowind to death and am hoping we get something a lot closer to Morrowind than Oblivion with the next installment.

They really have created a rich, unique universe, Morrowind was evidence of that.

They need to bring Ken Ralston back and to stop catering to console gamers.

Such typical synical replies by "true" rpg fans...


Ahh well, there is alot of lore to the TES games, we saw that in daggerfall...this could be really good.

I enjoyed Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3. I thought they were very good games and a good use of my dollar. I also still contend that much of the "hate-on" for the latter titles is more in reaction to the good reception the press gave than anything inherently bad in the the design.

I will not consider playing an MMO. I've been suckered in twice, seen it for what it is, and thrown my arms up both times. They all boil down to enjoying time with a friend in the weirdest way possible: "Boy this ditch-digging sure is fun, isn't it Billy Bob? I wish we could do this ALL the time."

I will donate another $10 if the mods make sure news on Elder Scrolls + MMO never appears on this site again.

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This.

Sergius64 said:

One could argue that so many people bought Oblivion because of its pretty looks and marketing hype, not the Consolish UI and piss poor list of skills. So from my angle there's no real reason not to build something that looks good, gets bunch of hype, but also has the deeper skill system and hopefully a more interesting premise then trying to close hundreds of hell gates that keep popping up everywhere.

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You're kind of missing the point, mate, given that your argument boils down to "it's not the crappy mechanics and GUI that matter, who care's if they're present? It's the graphics! Ooooh, and how much people talk about the grafx!"
What's more, a simple answer to your post is this: time and resources. Creating a game that boasts more than fancy graphics means taking the time to do so. Why bother when it's already been proven that you need not go to such extremes, that mere fancy graphics and hype sell?
To reiterate: why would any successful company shift their design philosophy toward something that did not sell as well as their latest franchise product (Morrowind versus Oblivion). Ultimately, the final-word is that of the suits at Zenimax, not the designers at Bethesda. Even should Todd and his sycophants protest, Zenimax, like any mega-corporation, is concerned primarily with the bottom line and has already established how best to raise it: next-gen graphics tossed in with some fantasy fare and blood-splatter. Throw in some more boobs (TM) and their games will become little more than a cliche (ala DA).

Also, my apologies if this comes off as a personal attack, mate. It's not intended as such.

Bedwyr said:

I enjoyed Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3. I thought they were very good games and a good use of my dollar. I also still contend that much of the "hate-on" for the latter titles is more in reaction to the good reception the press gave than anything inherently bad in the the design.

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I cannot speak for the rest of the gaming community, but I assure you, mate, my distaste for Oblivion and F3 are not reactionary. I played each (completely) and found something to like in them, as well. However, those self-same personal experiences left such a bitter aftertaste when comparing the titles to truly "good" games. Take Oblivion versus Arx Fatalis. The latter, Arx, embraces a small world, focusing on a single-thread plotline that is consistently reinforced by the gameworld at all times. Nonetheless, your actions are pivotal to not only moving the story forward, but also (tangentially) in preserving the gameworld itself. What's more, the manner in which you approach the in-game scenarios makes a legitimate difference. The same cannot be said about Oblivion. It also goes without saying that comparing F3 to the earlier Fallouts is a wash. For that matter, compare F3 to shooters that came out at roughly the same time. You'll find, consistently, that F3 is the inferior game. Case in point: Fallout 3 versus S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (yes, even the second one).

Im curious to see how this would actually pan out. Admitted Bethsoft fanboy here, all their previous releases have taken tons of my time, i dont see why this wouldnt be worth a look.

I think their style of games thus far lends itself well to an MMO environment. The problem being that one of the reasons I like their games is the lore, story and all that. Whether the unwashed masses would be as excited by the prospect of regaling in the TES lore as someone like me is doubtful tho…

Bedwyr said:

I will not consider playing an MMO. I've been suckered in twice, seen it for what it is, and thrown my arms up both times. They all boil down to enjoying time with a friend in the weirdest way possible: "Boy this ditch-digging sure is fun, isn't it Billy Bob? I wish we could do this ALL the time."

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I have also been there, once. I am so happy I managed to cut the addiction.
I did a job on computer gaming addiction in my psychology course and I had to treat MMO's as a separate beast from other addictions.

I consider MMO's to be one of the most dangerous thanks to the social element. Giving up the game is not only to give up the game, but your "friends". Given enough time the online community are the only friends you got, therefore it's extremely difficult to break.

JemyM said:

I consider MMO's to be one of the most dangerous thanks to the social element. Giving up the game is not only to give up the game, but your "friends". Given enough time the online community are the only friends you got, therefore it's extremely difficult to break.

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How is that different from real drugs? Drug addicts give up their old friends for drug friends. It's the same thing. I would say drugs are about a billion times worse than any silly mmo, but there is no real way to prove that. Unless you count all the people hooked on heroine, meth or crack. They lie, cheat, steal or sometimes kill to get their next fix. On average the only killing going on in a MMO is the virtual kind.

Anyway, you reminded me of this piece of news I read yesterday. Apparently a 16 year old boy ran away with his 42 year old-Warcraft Soulmate. Insanity thy name is Warcraft!!!

skavenhorde said:

How is that different from real drugs? Drug addicts give up their old friends for drug friends. It's the same thing. I would say drugs are about a billion times worse than any silly mmo, but there is no real way to prove that. Unless you count all the people hooked on heroine, meth or crack. They lie, cheat, steal or sometimes kill to get their next fix. On average the only killing going on in a MMO is the virtual kind.

Anyway, you reminded me of this piece of news I read yesterday. Apparently a 16 year old boy ran away with his 42 year old-Warcraft Soulmate. Insanity thy name is Warcraft!!!

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I don't think the point is that it's more dangerous than drugs, but that it's not necessarily LESS dangerous.

The thing about MMOs is that the effects are extremely subtle in the beginning, and it's not yet stigmatised or recognized as a genuine problem. I can't tell you how many people I personally know who have been utterly unable to see the problem for what it was, and in a way it's not a problem until it controls you. I still know a bunch of people who I think are severely addicted to the genre, and yet you'd never get them to admit it. They'll give you the same old arguments every time, like: "I'd rather do this than go out drinking or watch TV." But they never used to drink every day or watch TV all day before. That's something you do when you have the time and nothing else to do. MMOs, for many, seems to be ALL they do.

Jemy is right in saying that the friends thing is rather unique to MMOs, because you start out thinking you're going to "accomplish" something together, in a guild. Like there's some grand goal worthy of investing all those many, many hours into it. We're talking day in and day out trying to accomplish something that's not real, and which doesn't really affect your life except in some common fantasy.

If that's not a little bit scary, I don't know what is.

Are your friends functional as in have a job, pay their bills and respect the laws? If so then I'm sorry I disagree completely. If they are happy doing that, are not causing anyone harm and can still take care of their day to day lives then what is the problem? So what if they don't do what the 'norm' does.

Drugs on the other hand make it close to impossible to have a job, pay the bills and definitely do not respect the laws. I'm not even going to get started on the physical addition part of it. There are no MMO players going through the shakes when they stop playing.

skavenhorde said:

Are your friends functional as in have a job, pay their bills and respect the laws? If so then I'm sorry I disagree completely. If they are happy doing that, are not causing anyone harm and can still take care of their day to day lives then what is the problem? So what if they don't do what the 'norm' does.

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You're welcome to disagree

If you consider obese and socially isolated, as well as no one to call their own to be a healthy life - then yeah, we disagree.

I'm not saying it's "wrong" or that I have "evidence" they're not doing what they should. I can't prove they're not happy, either. I'm just observing and telling you what I see.

I'm saying they're making themselves miserable, and the game seems to be a major factor in that process.

Also, I know more than one person who lost their job due to a lack of control with this genre, including myself when I was addicted. I consider that the least of the problems associated with it.

Drugs on the other hand make it close to impossible to have a job, pay the bills and definitely do not respect the laws. I'm not even going to get started on the physical addition part of it. There is no MMO player going through the shakes when they stop playing.

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I have no idea why you think having a job, paying bills, and respecting laws constitutes a healthy fulfilling life - but that's where we differ.

DArtagnan said:

I have no idea why you think having a job, paying bills, and respecting laws constitutes a healthy fulfilling life - but that's where we differ.

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You forgot happy. That is the most important part. Drugs take out any way of being a functional member of society and being happy.

As for the rest, well we've had this discussion before (I believe) and we'll just have to disagree. I believe certain drugs are far more insidious than any MMO game.

skavenhorde said:

You forgot happy. That is the most important part. Drugs takes out any way of being a functional member of society and being happy.

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Ehm, obviously they're not happy in my eyes. If they were, then the discussion would be meaningless - wouldn't it?

Drugs don't implicitly remove the possibility of being happy, in my opinion.

But please remember that I consider drugs absolutely terrible and incredibly unhealthy as well. I lost my sister due to drugs, so it's not like I don't know what they're about.

As for the rest, well we've had this discussion before (I believe) and we'll just have to disagree. I believe certain drugs are far more insidious than any MMO game.

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I don't really care what's more dangerous in what way.

All I'm saying is that both things have the potential to be devastating in terms of how they can affect your life.

But I'm fine with disagreeing

I'm sorry about your sister. Lost my dad to alcohol so I know it freakin sucks big time.

I guess it's sorta silly debating about which one is worse. I just see myself in these descriptions of the 'horrors' of MMOs. Just replace MMO with single-player games and that's me. The thing is I know I'm different, but I'm happy. I go to work, have a girlfriend, pay my bills and Sarah even gets me out of the house every now and then, but that's the way I want it. I skip all the outings at work or even getting too close to the other people because I normally have next to nothing in common with them. Truthfully I don't want to go through all those social rituals. I never understood them and never will.

On the other hand I have a lot in common with the people here because my whole life can be wrapped up into three things: Sarah/work/games (in that order). I can talk to the people here about things I know about. I don't know anything about who won the world series or how cool it was mountain climbing. I don't really care about that.

The thing that really annoys me are people making this out to be a bad thing. Like I said before if they are happy and functional then who gives a rats behind what makes them happy.

Oh and btw not everyone who enjoys playing games is fat. I'm not, check out my picture if you don't believe me. It's in the 'post your picture' thread

Anyways, I just thought I'd give you a different perspective. Not everyone wants to be normal. I sure as hell don't. Normal people annoy the heck out of me

skavenhorde said:

I'm sorry about your sister. Lost my dad to alcohol so I know it freakin sucks big time.

I guess it's sorta silly debating about which one is worse. I just see myself in these descriptions of the 'horrors' of MMOs. Just replace MMO with single-player games and that's me. The thing is I know I'm different, but I'm happy. I go to work, have a girlfriend, pay my bills and Sarah even gets me out of the house every now and then, but that's the way I want it. I skip all the outings at work or even getting too close to the other people because I normally have next to nothing in common with them. Truthfully I don't want to go through all those social rituals. I never understood them and never will.

On the other hand I have a lot in common with the people here because my whole life can be wrapped up into three things: Sarah/work/games (in that order). I can talk to the people here about things I know about. I don't know anything about who won the world series or how cool it was mountain climbing. I don't really care about that.

The thing that really annoys me are people making this out to be a bad thing. Like I said before if they are happy and functional then who gives a rats behind what makes them happy.

Oh and btw not everyone who enjoys playing games is fat. I'm not, check out my picture if you don't believe me. It's in the 'post your picture' thread

Anyways, I just thought I'd give you a different perspective. Not everyone wants to be normal. I sure as hell don't. Normal people annoy the heck out of me

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But no no, you're getting me all wrong here

There's a big difference between singleplayer games and MMOs. I know some people don't "get it" and think it's negligible - but it's absolutely vital and essential.

Singleplayer games END. MMOs don't.

Movies end, books end, dates end, dinner ends, walking ends, kissing ends, making love ends, and so on.

When something ends, you generally go do something else. It's sort of a natural rhythm. You start something, experience it, finish it - and that's a memory. That's a learning experience. You can reflect and progress.

MMOs don't end. You have to stop and not start again. They're based on you paying for them for as long as they can make you pay. But developers are human, and they can't recreate the game constantly, so it's not like singleplayer games where you experience something new in a new game. No, they have to stretch the content and make you work for months for what would take hours to achieve in a singleplayer game. They have to make you believe in the carrot. They have to make you believe that your time is worth those new pixels with a new text on them.

Nah, the genre is busted, imo.