Thrasher
Wheeee!
Well from people who claim gameplay is most important, you shouldn't let the graphics whore in you take over.
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blatantninja
Resident Redneck Facist
I think the older ones look awful, but then they are older. When they came out, they were behind the times of course, but not awful. I thought the sprites and tilesets for Avadon were pretty nice looking. Cutting edge? No, but nice.
One of my issues with Avadon was that it seemed like there was a ton of wasted space. I like exploring (I'm a level clearer for sure), but there needs to at least occasionally be something there, or at least not have the same tilesets used over and over (give me something new to look at at least).
I really couldn't pin point that though until a few months later when I reloaded Ultima VII before going on vacation. The thing that stood out for me in U7 was that there was so much filling the space on the screen, yet it somehow never felt crowded or hard to manauver around. They really achieved a perfect balance in that respect.
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Dunno, maybe if the beer does the trick I buy them in the end… I mean, I've bought lately some really uglylooking and fun games (Aveyond for example), but honestly screenshots of Geneforge look as someone's graphics card just farted.
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Thrasher
Wheeee!
I have to agree muted shades of puce and lime green are not its strong point. It's about the gameplay (insert mental ability insult here).
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I love the Geneforge series. The story and gameplay is first class.
I would play these games with 4 colors and vector graphics.
I would play these games with 4 colors and vector graphics.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
Ultima 7 had tons of empty space and very tiresome pixel hunting to find items on complicated backgrounds. I don't like eye tests in my games.
Thankfully the Geneforge series has no pixel hunting like that. Stuff on the ground is fairly obvious.
Thankfully the Geneforge series has no pixel hunting like that. Stuff on the ground is fairly obvious.
blatantninja
Resident Redneck Facist
Yeah, the pixel huntin definitely got a bit old, but the empty space always seemed to serve a purpose. The towns were full, but again easily manageable (unless you were looking for a specific key somewhere at times!), the wilderness was open, but then that's what you'd expect.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
The point is that U7 had hidden items that could only be found by pixel hunting on detailed backgrounds that look a lot better than GF. But, this made for terribly tedious gameplay. Geneforge had none of that. Which is a big plus in my book.
Good gameplay and bad graphics I'm not sure it's a good mix. Much better is good gameplay and no or symbolic graphics.
Geneforge 1 gameplay didn't appealed me after 1-3 hours of play (few sessions) but graphics are a part of the gameplay and in G1 pushed it very far, it's just ugly and repulsive.
It's not about details it's about some elegance and aesthetic when you use graphics in a game.
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Thrasher
Wheeee!
No, not by our definition. But that's semantics. Otherwise everything is part of everything, and we can't discuss the important parts of a game separately that appeal to us. If you can't separate gameplay from graphics, then obviously graphics are more important to you and override any quality gameplay a game may have.
This is the definition of a graphics whore.
Thrasher: Perhaps you shouldn't try guess what I prefer or not and what is more important or not for me?
The "our" refers to what? All people posting in this forum agreed on a same definition? A vote has been organized to fix in marble the accepted definition of gameplay in this forum? That should be put in in FAQ of forum but I saw nothing.
I'm saying that disgusting graphics waste a good gameplay (if they aren't part of it) but I agree a great gameplay can survive such graphics. I haven't seen anything great in first parts of Geneforge 1, just good stuff at best. I can admit someone else have another opinion on this game. But let take a game you think just good and throw in it Geneforge graphics or instead graphics that you think cute, you really think it has no effect on you and how much you appreciate the game?
The "our" refers to what? All people posting in this forum agreed on a same definition? A vote has been organized to fix in marble the accepted definition of gameplay in this forum? That should be put in in FAQ of forum but I saw nothing.
I'm saying that disgusting graphics waste a good gameplay (if they aren't part of it) but I agree a great gameplay can survive such graphics. I haven't seen anything great in first parts of Geneforge 1, just good stuff at best. I can admit someone else have another opinion on this game. But let take a game you think just good and throw in it Geneforge graphics or instead graphics that you think cute, you really think it has no effect on you and how much you appreciate the game?
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Thrasher
Wheeee!
Minimal to no effect for me. Some of my favorite RPGs have the shittiest graphics. But obviously you are more swayed to graphics. Graphics are not gameplay though. That's our working definition that we have been using for years here. If you want to communicate clearly then I suggest you don't muddy the water.
Ultima 7 is nearly 20 years old. I'm not sure why you would even mention that title as a comparison.
My lack of interest in Spiderweb games goes beyond simply not liking the visuals. I played Geneforge for a good 5-6 hours, and it just didn't grab me at all. I haven't tried any other games in that series, but I somehow doubt they would do any more for me. I also played some demos for the Avernum series back in the day, and those didn't do anything for me either.
Not saying they're bad games or anything, they just don't suit my taste.
Yep, he was pointing out how a 20 year old game is better.
D
DArtagnan
Guest
From what I've played of the Spiderweb games (can't stand them, really) - U7 is far beyond in design, writing and aesthetics. Considering their age difference, it makes either U7 exponentially more impressive - or Spiderweb games exponentially less impressive.
That said, I do prefer the combat system of Spiderweb games. That was always the weakest part of U7.
Also, I've only played a few SW titles. Avadon being the most recent. Maybe they're hiding something… Really well.
As for gameplay over graphics - I find it surprising that people don't understand that one important thing does not make another less important thing unimportant.
Both are very, very important for my enjoyment of games - as I'm sure goes for the majority.
That said, I do prefer the combat system of Spiderweb games. That was always the weakest part of U7.
Also, I've only played a few SW titles. Avadon being the most recent. Maybe they're hiding something… Really well.
As for gameplay over graphics - I find it surprising that people don't understand that one important thing does not make another less important thing unimportant.
Both are very, very important for my enjoyment of games - as I'm sure goes for the majority.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
Geneforge series are my favorite SpiderWeb games so far. If you haven't played one, I'd try one first and play as a shaper before bashing them. The story and faction interactions were far beyond most modern RPGs. I like the turn-based combat and open world exploration too. Little handholding, so reckless exploration can easily get you killed. Interested in trying Nethergate at some time.
The pleasure to explore Skyrim world can be in part from the art quality of the graphics, the line between gameplay and graphics isn't that clear. It's like make a line between story elements and gameplay, are you also drawing a line between gameplay and story elements? Anyway where's that gameplay definition you seem sure everyone here agree? I hope you know I'm not new here, I remember more it's a subject of debate. But I have never been faithful participant here so perhaps I didn't saw the vote.
Players that don't mind at all with graphics are quite rare, but it shouldn't be confused with graphic realism or details, that is a totally different subject.
I have the hypothesis that the lines between gameplay and graphics or story have an origin, the vocabulary, you know what is graphics, you know what is story or even story elements, and everything else is gameplay ie stuff more vague. All of that isn't affirmation just debating.
Players that don't mind at all with graphics are quite rare, but it shouldn't be confused with graphic realism or details, that is a totally different subject.
I have the hypothesis that the lines between gameplay and graphics or story have an origin, the vocabulary, you know what is graphics, you know what is story or even story elements, and everything else is gameplay ie stuff more vague. All of that isn't affirmation just debating.
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