Paradox's Magna Mundi in trouble

wolfing

Dalek SasqWatch
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For those of us who *love* Paradox's grand strategy games (I seriously consider Europa Universalis 3 one of the best games ever made), really bad news.
But first, a little backstory.

The original 'vanilla' game lets you play any country in the world from 1399 to 1820 or anytime in between, you can even change what country you play whenever you want. It runs by events, so when you play as England, your experience is much different than if you play as China, or as the Ottomans, or as France, as there are many events that depend on the country, or provinces you own, or regional situations.

The game is also extremely modifiable, letting people change pretty much anything in the game, from maps, to countries, to rules, etc.
I love the vanilla game as it is, but one complain that many people have about it is that it's not historical enough. Basically, that you can do or see things that would have been historically impossible (like France or China gobbling everything, and as a player you can even conquer the whole world if you want).

The most famous and complex mod was named "Magna Mundi", originally made by one person, eventually growing into a team of people from around the world. Their goal was to make the vanilla game more historically accurate, pretty much by changing everything that could be changed. To many people, the mod made the game much better.

Apparently, some of these people included the actual creators of the game (Paradox) so much that they seeked them out to make a Paradox's licensed stand-alone game called 'Magna Mundi'.

The game has been in development for 3 years or so. Originally to be released a year ago, then 6 months ago, then supposedly any moment now… when suddenly a week ago in the official forums Paradox posted a note with the heading 'Magna Mundi, the sad state of affairs' describing how the game was pretty much close to cancellation, as every release candidate had failed its target date and quality level, with bugs that haven't been fixed since the first time they reported it, and new bugs coming up.

To me, this is a perfect example of 'young' companies needing proper management. Mod developers have a lot of heart, great intentions, but they have one major problem… without someone telling them "no", it's very common to fall into what I call 'featuritis', basically they keep adding features that are 'cool', without before thinking what that would entail in terms of extra complexity, development time, resources, costs. Basically… biting more than they can chew.

I for one was really looking forward to this game, and would be very sad to see it cancelled after so long (and you can already see "let's play" videos of the game), but putting myself in Paradox's shoes, I do understand why they would want that, as putting their name in a box (physical or electronic) of a game that not even them consider to be even close to be in a release state can tarnish their reputation as a company (and after the gem that was Crusader Kings 2, it erased some of the previous failures in many people's minds).

I hope some sort of miracle happens and the game is actually released, but after seeing the responses of the dev team about Paradox's posting, I don't see it happening.
 
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I don't think Paradox's reputation can be more tarnished. There a company you know that every release must be patched until it's playable.

I often find a company run by a mod creator or developer usual fails as they can't grasp the financial side.

On the plus side I'm waiting for the new Napoleon game based on the Crusader Kings 2 engine. Hopefully nothing happens to that game.
 
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Eh, yeah. I was looking forward to MMtG too, but I was already expecting the worst with what several RCs being discarded by Paradox itself.
Let's just hope they don't cancel it completely... Seems like a waste of investment.

On the plus side I'm waiting for the new Napoleon game based on the Crusader Kings 2 engine. Hopefully nothing happens to that game.

Oh? Which game is this?
 
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I don't think Paradox's reputation can be more tarnished. There a company you know that every release must be patched until it's playable.

Isn't that what Paradox has been doing since they first stepped into the global vidoegames market? Release buggy products that they then patch up? It seem to be working for them.
In my case I've learnt not to buy a Paradox game on release, but I still always seem to end up buying them at one point or another.

Shame to hear about the issues that they are having. I was really looking forward to this game, it looked like it had a lot of potential.
 
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Oh? Which game is this?

This -http://www.playerattack.com/file/17571/Napoleon039s-Campaigns-II-GDC-2012-Video-Interview/
Napoleon's Campaigns II

Platform: PC
Publisher: Paradox Interactive
Developer:
Genre: Strategy

Napoleon's Campaign II marks the return of one of Europe's greatest commanders in this new historical grand strategy title from Paradox France. Feature an extremely in-depth recollection of Napoleon’s greatest campaigns, including Egypt to Waterloo, strategy fans will have their hands full trying to take over Europe in this sequel to the acclaimed original. Play as the soldier turned emperor, or one of 600 other historical leaders, in this unequalled strategy game featuring the largest Napoleonic Europe map yet.

The game was listed on there website last month but now it's not even on there games list. I hope it wasn't cancelled.
 
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In my case I've learnt not to buy a Paradox game on release, but I still always seem to end up buying them at one point or another.
.

True but their recent games(Victoria II,Sengoku,Crusader kings II)came out pretty stable and with very little bugs so I think they are definitely making progress.I bought both hearts of iron III and europa universalis III on initial release when they where nearly unplayable(especialy HoI III)which might been mistake but it was worth waiting to become what they are now becouse those are games without alternative.
 
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True but their recent games(Victoria II,Sengoku,Crusader kings II)came out pretty stable and with very little bugs so I think they are definitely making progress.I bought both hearts of iron III and europa universalis III on initial release when they where nearly unplayable(especialy HoI III)which might been mistake but it was worth waiting to become what they are now becouse those are games without alternative.

Yes but there patches always cause more problems. Look at Crusader Kings 2. Since patch 1.05 there has been 6 hot fixes.

I know its mostly due to new features and the changes to game play. Hopefully the next patch with the dlc will be better.
 
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Yes but there patches always cause more problems. Look at Crusader Kings 2. Since path 1.05 there has been 6 hot fixes.
Still progress considering their past games.I think they will always have that problem because very small team(somebody correct me if I am wrong but I think it was 7 full time people for CK II and 11 for HoI III)is making very complex games.
 
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Yes but there patches always cause more problems. Look at Crusader Kings 2. Since path 1.05 there has been 6 hot fixes.

yes but except for the first couple of hot fixes, they're just fixing rare occurances (none that I have experienced myself).

I'm also in the group that hasn't experienced a bad Paradox game, probably because I became addicted to EU3 after the first 2 expansions when it was already stable, and have loved each new expansion. Sengoku and Crusader Kings 2 were very solid releases.

I've never managed to get into Europa Universalis. I find it overly complex. Too many sliders, too many options. Also a bit too sandboxy for me…

I guess it's just not my kind of game.

could be, but in my case, it took me two tries to get into it. My first try, I thought (wrongly) that I should start with a smallish country so not to be overwhelmed with options. Got creamed soon after by France :) Months later I tried again, but started with Castille instead, and totally fell in love with the game.


If you want to try again, feel free to ask any questions here, I'll be more than glad to answer them.
 
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Go buy Sword of the Stars 2, wolfing, then think about how this is the state of the game six months after release. The release notes are quite amazing.

(Still, it IS slowly digging up from the grave!)
 
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True but their recent games(Victoria II,Sengoku,Crusader kings II)came out pretty stable and with very little bugs so I think they are definitely making progress.I bought both hearts of iron III and europa universalis III on initial release when they where nearly unplayable(especialy HoI III)which might been mistake but it was worth waiting to become what they are now becouse those are games without alternative.

Yea, their first party releases seem to have gotten a lot better as of late, but their 3rd party releases still suffer from often being released in a buggy state. Usually they get patched up and become fully playable though.
I'm not surprised though, most of the games that they publish are pretty complex & ambitious, and games like that tends to be buggy on release. I'm still a bit surprised that they managed to make King Arthur: The roleplaying wargame so playable, considering the scope of the game, and the size of the companies involved
 
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Go buy Sword of the Stars 2, wolfing, then think about how this is the state of the game six months after release. The release notes are quite amazing.

(Still, it IS slowly digging up from the grave!)

I still find the excuse flawed. How does somebody delete the gold version permanently and upload an alpha version on release instead? I wish they would admit they released an unfinished product and the buyers are all beta testers.

What are then on now update 50 or more now? I think with all the patches it has gone from an alpha state to maybe a beta. It will take at least another 4-6 months to finish, assuming that Kerberos can keep up the pace and does not shut down.
 
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I still find the excuse flawed. How does somebody delete the gold version permanently and upload an alpha version on release instead? I wish they would admit they released an unfinished product and the buyers are all beta testers.

What are then on now update 50 or more now? I think with all the patches it has gone from an alpha state to maybe a beta. It will take at least another 4-6 months to finish, assuming that Kerberos can keep up the pace and does not shut down.

probably the reason why they may be much more critical on the state of Magna Mundi and their reluctance to release the game in the current state.
 
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Go buy Sword of the Stars 2, wolfing, then think about how this is the state of the game six months after release. The release notes are quite amazing.

(Still, it IS slowly digging up from the grave!)

Also, this is not an internally developed title, like Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis or Hearts of Iron mentioned in this thread. They just published it.

And yes, I think this is in part the reason why they're being so hard on Magna Mundi.
Rightly so. It bodes well they (try to) learn from past mistakes. After the Hearts of Iron III release, they expanded and invested in their QA dept, and it paid of.
 
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This -http://www.playerattack.com/file/17571/Napoleon039s-Campaigns-II-GDC-2012-Video-Interview/
Napoleon's Campaigns II

Platform: PC
Publisher: Paradox Interactive
Developer:
Genre: Strategy

Napoleon's Campaign II marks the return of one of Europe's greatest commanders in this new historical grand strategy title from Paradox France. Feature an extremely in-depth recollection of Napoleon’s greatest campaigns, including Egypt to Waterloo, strategy fans will have their hands full trying to take over Europe in this sequel to the acclaimed original. Play as the soldier turned emperor, or one of 600 other historical leaders, in this unequalled strategy game featuring the largest Napoleonic Europe map yet.

The game was listed on there website last month but now it's not even on there games list. I hope it wasn't cancelled.

I was hoping they would change combat system making it little more active but looks like that isn't happening with this game.I am not expecting battle system of HoI III complexity because HoI is conceptually different than other clausewitz engine games but I think they should have evolved since EU 3 giving at least some more active tactical decisions.
 
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I still find the excuse flawed. How does somebody delete the gold version permanently and upload an alpha version on release instead? I wish they would admit they released an unfinished product and the buyers are all beta testers.
Bah, it hardly matters. The not-beta version was pretty much the same as the beta only instead of lots of main menu options going to blank screens, the main menu options were disabled. The whole deal was exceedingly slimy.

What are then on now update 50 or more now? I think with all the patches it has gone from an alpha state to maybe a beta. It will take at least another 4-6 months to finish, assuming that Kerberos can keep up the pace and does not shut down.
It's only been half a year so I would guess about 20 updates. "Beta" sounds about right but "finished" is going to be hard to nail down. This is one of those ongoing games where they keep updating the game and adding new features over the course of years, with a few paid expansions along the way. They should slowly shift from fixing bugs and finishing the features that were always supposed to be there to fixing bugs and adding new features. I guess you can call the game 'finished' when that transition is going on. It won't really be "complete" for years to come, though, when they finally decide the game needs a whole new engine and they start making Sword of the Stars 3.
 
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Magna Mundi has officially been closed down. Paradox made a statement about it today:
Hi all,

today Paradox Interactive decided to cancel Magna Mundi. It will not see the light of day under the current set up: Universo Virtual (UV) will not be part of this project any more.

The reasons for cancelling the contract with Universo Virtual include the following:

- Lack of progress; we have seen this project drag on and the code we have gotten has not shown significant improvement for many months. Some old and known problems persists and new ones appear with each delivery.

- Lack of trust; the leadership of UV has given a sunshine version of the project to Paradox and reacted with irritation and anger when we have pointed out obvious problems with the deliveries. It has come to a point where they claim the project is done, and the game is ready for release – despite the many critical issues found and reported on our end.

- Internal strife within the MM team; we have gotten information from members within the MM team desperate to save the project whom report to us that the project lacks active leadership. Key personnel in the project see what Paradox sees but instead gets silenced by the UV leadership.

All in all, these are not circumstances under which we can work with a team and it will now stop. At this point we have no more news than the above.

Sincerely and regretfully,
Mattias Lilja
Executive Producer for Magna Mundi

Sad news, but quite understandable.

*edit* And in a previous announcement Paradox openly admitted to having released unfinished games in the past, and that they also have realized the consequences of this (though as I see it, Paradox have still had a pretty customer friendly attitude, remember that they did offer refunds to people who were unhappy with the state that Sword of the Stars 2 was released in)

EDIT: I want to clarify a point about the quality of Magna Mundi and previous releases from Paradox:

Paradox strives to improve in all aspects; technical stability, accessibility and gameplay fun. We have at times fallen short of our goals, but never lost our will to improve. Two wrongs does not make a right; the shortcomings of Magna Mundi does not go away because we have made errors of judgement previously.
 
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Sad thing to hear.Looks like small team got over their heads.Understandable decision from paradox they don't want another sword of the stars 2 fiasco.
 
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