Skyrim Is Skyrim better than Oblivion?

Kinda like what happened for Fallout 2. There was a lot of discussion (and even one walkthru) about how the best way to play was to sneak into Navarro (sp?) and get power armor right at the start which made 75% of the game trivially easy.

Almost everything about Skyrim is better, Crafting is just plain awesome, it requires time exploring the game and experimenting with ingridinces or collecting enchantments for your items.

Combat feels a lot better to, I'm doing a play though with a mace/shield warrior and found the shield a lot more rewarding then oblivion if you really invest in the perks.

Magic was a little disappointed for me, I miss all the crazy enchantments and spells from Morrowind, the low number of spells in Skyrim's make a mage very limited in the beginning and I don't really think the spell tomes was the right way to go with learning new spells, still the casting and perks makes it a step up from oblivion.

As for the attitudes, all I can say is good riddance I hated seed levelling my endurance to maximize my health in oblivion, in Skyrim its not really a loss as much as a trade-off for perks, still I would have loved to see the attitudes make a comeback in a new form, maybe like the special system in Fallout3.

Only place I'd say Oblivion is better is with faction quest lines, yes Skyrim's faction got more history/lore and there quest givers are more interesting then oblivion but I found the Skyrim quest lines to be to short and you pretty much start as a master right away, the dark brotherhood and thieves guild manages to pull it off imo but the companions and collage doesn't, I found have loved to spend some time as a mage apprentice learning the skills from the master at the collage or really feeling like I earned it when I was allowed into the circle at the companions.

Carnifex said:

I'm quite pleased they didn't plant good loot in the world where a crappy level 1 toon could just run and snatch it up. In the days that we live in now, where nothing is worked for and it's all handed to the whining masses, gimme a long involved quest with a decent reward at the end!! Call me old fashioned, but I like a challenge in a game when I've laid out some $$$ for it. The best items I've seen in Skyrim were either made by my toon, or granted at the end of a very involved quest.

Skyrim > Oblivion by far.


-Carn

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I agree that binding special loot to quests this is better than the alternative you describe. However, it is only a workaround that is necessary because of level scaling.

The real solution would be to make the places with the really good loot very dangerous for level 1 toons. For example if they were eaten by a Shadow beast...

Carnifex said:

I'm quite pleased they didn't plant good loot in the world where a crappy level 1 toon could just run and snatch it up. In the days that we live in now, where nothing is worked for and it's all handed to the whining masses, gimme a long involved quest with a decent reward at the end!! Call me old fashioned, but I like a challenge in a game when I've laid out some $$$ for it. The best items I've seen in Skyrim were either made by my toon, or granted at the end of a very involved quest.

Skyrim > Oblivion by far.


-Carn

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I used to be on the other side of the fence regarding hand-placed loot. I loved how Morrowind handled it, you were never sure if the cave or dungeon you were entering contained some legendary item guarded by a fierce creature at the end of it. It made exploring very fun. On the same token, you could get some of the best gear in the game at very low levels, if you knew where to look.

Skyrim's exploration is just as fun, but in different ways. I like how in Skyrim you can still find high level loot at lower levels, but you have to get lucky. For example, I found an enchanted Ebony shield when I was only wearing Dwarven, in a master locked chest. It was by far the best piece of gear I had found at that stage of the game, and stayed that way for quite awhile. I also stumbled upon the Daedric artifact staff that summons a Dremora at relatively low level, and that has proved to be a very powerful item for most of my game so far. It was definitely one of the most powerful items I've found and I found it at low level, which was cool.

Skyrim, with it's dynamic and scaled approach, much different than the static world of Morrowind, has made the loot system fun for 75 hours and counting for me so far. I am constantly finding good loot that keeps me wanting to keep searching for more, and doing more and more quests to see what rewards I will get. That is the best compliment I can give to Skyrim, it's loot keeps me coming back for more.

I also love how you can create your own gear and it's just as powerful as some of the stuff you find. I currently have a nice mix of items I've found and also items I've crafted myself. I'll probably never be able to enchant an item with 2 enchantments, but throwing some enchantment on a piece of Ebony armor is still very satisfying.

So while very different from Morrowind, Skyrim is just as good, if not better in the way they handle the loot system. It's perfect really for an open-world RPG.

Firestorm said:

...but I found the Skyrim quest lines to be to short and you pretty much start as a master right away, the dark brotherhood and thieves guild manages to pull it off imo but the companions and collage doesn't, I found have loved to spend some time as a mage apprentice learning the skills from the master at the collage or really feeling like I earned it when I was allowed into the circle at the companions.

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Same story with Thane quests. With one or two exceptions you wonder why most of citizens aren't Thanes...

There isn't enough room in Thenmark for everyone to be a Thane

Okay, silliness aside, there is a reason for it to be easy: The Dragonborn is a being of historical significance. In both the College and the Companions, being the guild leader isn't all that important.
Having the Dragonborn leading your group will give the College some positive recognition and makes the Companions look even more special.

zahratustra said:

Same story with Thane quests. With one or two exceptions you wonder why most of citizens aren't Thanes…

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Do you mean that level scaling is still that broken that you can do every quest on every level like in Oblivion? That would be a letdown...

Tragos said:

(even daedric quest related items are scaled lol)

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No they aren´t, rofl.

BillSeurer said:

Storylines are much longer than in Oblivion.

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I think this is disputable and sorta misleading.
We might argue about quality, amount of padding, what exactly counts towards the length of "storylines", etc., but I´d say that at least when it comes to questlines they´re certainly not much longer than in Oblivion, in the case of guilds they´re usually shorter and the main quest is about on par in length.

bkrueger said:

Do you mean that level scaling is still that broken that you can do every quest on every level like in Oblivion? That would be a letdown…

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Errr since I haven't done "every quest", I am not sure about that.
What I am saying that Solitude Thane quest (leading to a biggest player's house in the game) involves cleaning up one dungeon and placing an object on an altar…

zahratustra said:

Errr since I haven't done "every quest", I am not sure about that.
What I am saying that Solitude Thane quest (leading to a biggest player's house in the game) involves cleaning up one dungeon and placing an object on an altar…

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Ok, may be I read to much into your and Firestorm's examples. In addition I read elsewhere that you can get head of the mage guild on a very low level, when in fact you barely manage magic at all. In a good design you would need to be a high level mage in order to be able to be head of a mage guild, obviously.

I found the questline for the Companions to be of good enough length, very natural progression, with some good twists and story points, and some good loot and rewards for becoming Harbinger. I like how you can take any Companion with you on your travels, that is a nice touch. I didn't like Skjor and Ria resurrecting and coming back to life in Jorrvaskr though. Skjor calls me a whelp (get with the times man), and Ria died in a horrible explosion by stepping on a frost rune. Somehow they are both back. Awkward. I chalk it up to the Goddess Mara resurrecting them in order to keep Jorrvaskr safe, or something.

bkrueger said:

Ok, may be I read to much into your and Firestorm's examples. In addition I read elsewhere that you can get head of the mage guild on a very low level, when in fact you barely manage magic at all. In a good design you would need to be a high level mage in order to be able to be head of a mage guild, obviously.

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Not necessarily. It's about what you DO, not about what skills you have. You can be the best magician in all the land, but not have done anything of value for the College, therefore you're just an initiate or whatever. You could also be of low magical skill, yet do the right things to advance, and be in the right place at the right time. That's how I viewed the Companions. You weren't necessarily the best warrior, but you did the right things and were part of a bigger picture, therefore you became Harbinger. I haven't done the College quests but I assume the same is true.

Fluent said:

Not necessarily. It's about what you DO, not about what skills you have. You can be the best magician in all the land, but not have done anything of value for the College, therefore you're just an initiate or whatever. You could also be of low magical skill, yet do the right things to advance, and be in the right place at the right time. That's how I viewed the Companions. You weren't necessarily the best warrior, but you did the right things and were part of a bigger picture, therefore you became Harbinger. I haven't done the College quests but I assume the same is true.

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While I don't disagree strongly, this mainly sounds like rationalisation for me, i. e. making up an explanation for something that is simply not in the game. (Like the guy who argued that Skyrim had C&C because you have the choice to not do quests that you don't like).

I'll have to play the College with another character and get a feel for how you rise to the top in order to have a more complete opinion on the subject. But I feel the Companions rise to the top happened very naturally, and most importantly made sense. I don't feel it was too fast or anything. It was "just right".

I remember Morrowind had actual requirements in skill sets that you had to possess in order to rank up in the guild. While that is definitely one approach to handling guilds, and a legitimate and good approach at that, it's just one way of doing things. Having your actions weigh more than skillset is another way of doing it, and I think that's what they did with Skyrim. And if you really think about it, Skyrim's approach makes much more sense being that your Dragonborn and all, whereas Morrowind you were an average joe up until later in the main quest when you finally realize you possess powers. So I would venture a guess that rising to the top of any organization in Skyrim would be much easier being that you are dragonborn. And also the whole "being in the right place at the right time" aspect.

Maybe it is rationalization, but I'm trying to look at it from the viewpoint of the lore writing developers. They are the ones who made the call on the guilds and I'm trying to figure out what they were thinking.

bkrueger said:

While I don't disagree strongly, this mainly sounds like rationalisation for me, i. e. making up an explanation for something that is simply not in the game. (Like the guy who argued that Skyrim had C&C because you have the choice to not do quests that you don't like).

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Don't get me wrong. I really do enjoy playing Skyrim but it looks to me like Bethesda's devs might have run out of time with certain quest lines.

Fluent said:

Maybe it is rationalization,

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Of course it is and a pretty weak one at that.
Assuming your rationalization is correct, then why, tell me, do you have to do all those mundane tasks, including "training with Vilkas" (which, as a side note, doesn´t require any combat skill to complete successfully), if you want to be accepted among their ranks, even if you saved their asses from the dragon attack just beforehand?
Why, if you´re a Dragonborn, you have to become a spoiler if you want to be part of the circle?

The rationalization doesn´t make much sense and even if it did, it wouldn´t make progression in Skyrim´s guilds any more interesting anyway.
Progression-wise, Companions and The College of Winterhold guilds are simply failures as guilds. Dark Brotherhood is only slightly better and the only good one in this aspect is Thieves Guild. In my opinion.

Fluent said:

I remember Morrowind had actual requirements in skill sets that you had to possess in order to rank up in the guild.

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Which is one of the reasons why Morrowind´s guilds are better than Skyrim´s from the roleplaying perspective.

How is Morrowind's approach "better"? It's just different, not better (or worse). Skyrim approached it from an "actions speak louder than ranks" approach. There's nothing wrong with that.

Companions aren't even an official guild. There are no ranks other than the Circle and Harbinger, and even Harbinger has been described as NOT being a leader, but kind of the guy who gives advice on different topics, etc. There are no ranks to climb in a general guild sense. You start as a whelp, then you become a full fledged member, and it just so happens you have appeared in Kodlak's dreams and are destined to become Harbinger. I don't see what's so bad about that. But I'm also the type not to think just because something is different, that it's automatically worse than the old stuff.

Would you rather a guild where you had to advance every step of the way (from whelp to apprentice to associate to this to that), or a guild that advances you based on the amazing feats you've performed for them? Adding "fluff" content of running around killing Silver Hand just to advance in ranks would have been even worse than just leaving it out. I would argue that doing so would make the guild tedious, or boring, where Bethesda just said, "let's skip to the good stuff". The "guild" is fine as is. Far from a failure. They simply aren't designed in the way you imagine a traditional guild to be designed. They didn't "run out of time" or anything. They've been working on this game for 5+ years, haven't they? In that time I'm sure they contemplated these guilds a billion times. I embrace the changes they ultimately went with and think they're great.

That said, I've yet to complete the College, so that opinion can change, but the Companions was great. And from a role-playing perspective, I had a blast becoming Harbinger, and found no problems whatsoever with it.

Ive done all the guild quest lines atleast twice now and my chief complaint aside from the fact that you allways endup running the damn thing is that they feel way too short.
Granted its still a step up from oblivions "go fetch my trousers. Thanks kid your a conjurer now! x100" but it feels like they didnt have time to flesh out the guilds enough for you to care about the people in it or the guilds themselves.
Also since you know you endup running the thing before you start immersion is kinda ruined from the get-go.
I know shameless ego wanking is works well on the 5-15 demographic but whats wrong with being a valued employee or a chief exec or something?
For this reason alone my favorite is the dark brotherhood as you will never be more then a tool for sithis.

Fluent said:

How is Morrowind's approach "better"? Skyrim approached it from an "actions speak louder than ranks" approach.

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Actions matter in Morrowind´s guilds as well, they´re no different from Skyrim´s in that regard. They´re better from the roleplaying perspective, because, additionally, character development matters in them as well.

Fluent said:

and it just so happens you have appeared in Kodlak's dreams and are destined to become Harbinger

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Haha, weren´t you just arguing that

Fluent said:

It's about what you DO

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that matters?

That´s another weak aspect of Skyrim´s guilds - you´re The Chosen One in 3/4 of´em.

Fluent said:

"let's skip to the good stuff"

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In the Companions case, good stuff being doing few mundane errands and clearing 4-5 dungeons of nameless enemies + few admittedly nice scenes here and there.

You didn´t address the main point of my previous post, btw.

DeepO said:

In the Companions case, good stuff being doing few mundane errands and clearing 4-5 dungeons of nameless enemies + few admittedly nice scenes here and there.

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Companion's quest line is simply epic when compared to other Skyrim's quest lines…