Ossian Studios - The Shadow Sun Announced

I think thats the wrong question, though. Would I like great PC games playing to the strengths of that platform? Sure! But I am not sticking my gaming PC in my pocket. Therfore, would I like great (as great as they can be) games for my iPhone which happens to BE in my pocket? Sure! Therfore, do I care or am I dissapointed that Ossian makes an iPhone game instead of a PC game this time? No!

Yours truly, exploited consumer GBG
 
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I think thats the wrong question, though. Would I like great PC games playing to the strengths of that platform? Sure! But I am not sticking my gaming PC in my pocket. Therfore, would I like great (as great as they can be) games for my iPhone which happens to BE in my pocket? Sure! Therfore, do I care or am I dissapointed that Ossian makes an iPhone game instead of a PC game this time? No!

Yours truly, exploited consumer GBG

Of course you'd want that, now that you have one in your pocket ;)

How did you ever get by without one? The mind boggles ;)

If we could have both without losing anything, i'd be right there with you.

The thing is, though, that this game The Shadow Sun is ACTIVELY taking away the option of creating a potentially great game, for the best platform available. Because they're making it for the iPhone, not PC (or whatever platform you prefer).

Big loss?

Not necessarily.

However, logically and rationally, the iPhone and gadgets like it - are destructive to the evolution of gaming. Unless you're the sort of person who really believes that, as a platform, a phone is as good as the PC.

I certainly don't :)

Oh, and I've bought gadgets myself. That's what it is to have more money and time than I really know what to do with, so naturally I buy shit to waste some of it. That's sort of what society has become, and we might as well not help those in need instead.

It's only human. That said, at least I realise that's what I'm doing ;)
 
Of course you'd want that, now that you have one in your pocket ;)

How did you ever get by without one? The mind boggles ;)
Sure, and when I was young I was happy typing on a mechanical typewriter. *Shrug* most things technology gives us (including computer games) are absolutely not essential. They are merely "nice to have".
If we could have both without losing anything, i'd be right there with you.

The thing is, though, that this game The Shadow Sun is ACTIVELY taking away the option of creating a potentially great game, for the best platform available. Because they're making it for the iPhone, not PC (or whatever platform you prefer).

Big loss?

Not necessarily.

However, logically and rationally, the iPhone and gadgets like it - are destructive to the evolution of gaming. Unless you're the sort of person who really believes that, as a platform, a phone is as good as the PC.
The point I was trying to make, is that that is not the point. They are different platforms, with different uses, and frankly I'd like both to go their separate evolutionary ways. Wether it's destructive to the PC - who knows! But its also a reality, just like consoles. Frankly, I doubt that many people (at least people who play CRPGS) would consider the iphone, or any handheld, their main platform - therefore it is probably an additional market, not one that takes much away from the larger PC and console markets.
 
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Sure, and when I was young I was happy typing on a mechanical typewriter. *Shrug* most things technology gives us (including computer games) are absolutely not essential. They are merely "nice to have".

True enough. There's no way to argue that the iPhone is a superfluous gadget anymore than the PC is.

If you feel the money was well spent, then I guess that's that ;)

The point I was trying to make, is that that is not the point. They are different platforms, with different uses, and frankly I'd like both to go their separate evolutionary ways. Wether it's destructive to the PC - who knows! But its also a reality, just like consoles. Frankly, I doubt that many people (at least people who play CRPGS) would consider the iphone, or any handheld, their main platform - therefore it is probably an additional market, not one that takes much away from the larger PC and console markets.

Destructive to the PC? Well, not really. I'm talking about good developers, focusing on the wrong platform.

I'm curious though, what do you feel about what has happened to the gaming industry after consoles became so dominant? Do you think it was for the better, in terms of the games released? Specifically the KIND of games released today.

The only thing that I know about this, with absolute certainty (as much as one can know anything), is that time spent doing one thing - means time not spent doing another.

That's an inescapable fact, and in this case - it means time spent developing an iPhone game, by a developer that I think could have created a great PC game instead.

This is all subjective, by the way.

I hope you're all enjoying what your gadgets are providing you with ;)
 
Lots of ignorant and stupid comments here. As someone who has had a close eye on iPhone/iPod Touch gaming since the introduction to the AppStore, I can't imagine anyone denying the positive effect it had on the evolution of gaming.

Indie developers and big game development houses found themselves for the first time on the same level. This has changed somewhat over time, but the cost to start is still incredibly low, with controls that are innovative, in a device that certainly is very well suited to playing games on the go.

Do not compare iPhone/iPod Touch games to Java games on mobile phones! Not even the Android Marketplace can give an idea of the gaming potential of an iPhone!

Let's not forget that the iPhone has a multi-touch screen, gyroscope and accellerometer. If you say that there are no great games that have good controls that are exclusive to the device, you haven't looked. Also, if you didn't know it, apart from many exclusives (for example, a full RPG from Square Enix), there have been many full ports from PSP and NDS that work wonderfully on the iPhone's screen. So why is PSP or NDS a valid platform, but iPhone is not? That's for a fraction of the price these games cost you on their original platforms--$10 at most, usually less.

I'm not an fanboy, either. I hate the new iPhone 4 and I'm considering moving over to Android. I'm probably going to miss some of the gaming that was possible on my current iPhone 3G if I go that route. :(

P.S. I paid 80 euro for my iPhone with a two-year phone plan including unlimited internet for 30 euro a month. That's not that huge a deal.
 
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Lots of ignorant and stupid comments here. As someone who has had a close eye on iPhone/iPod Touch gaming since the introduction to the AppStore, I can't imagine anyone denying the positive effect it had on the evolution of gaming.

Indie developers and big game development houses found themselves for the first time on the same level. This has changed somewhat over time, but the cost to start is still incredibly low, with controls that are innovative, in a device that certainly is very well suited to playing games on the go.

Do not compare iPhone/iPod Touch games to Java games on mobile phones! Not even the Android Marketplace can give an idea of the gaming potential of an iPhone!

Let's not forget that the iPhone has a multi-touch screen, gyroscope and accellerometer. If you say that there are no great games that have good controls that are exclusive to the device, you haven't looked. Also, if you didn't know it, apart from many exclusives (for example, a full RPG from Square Enix), there have been many full ports from PSP and NDS that work wonderfully on the iPhone's screen. So why is PSP or NDS a valid platform, but iPhone is not?

I'm not an fanboy, either. I hate the new iPhone 4 and I'm considering moving over to Android. I'm probably going to miss some of the gaming that was possible on my current iPhone 3G if I go that route. :(

Exactly why are we ignorant because we haven't seen a single mobile game, that can compare to anything we (really) enjoy on the PC? Unless you're talking about 10-15 year old adventure games that we played in our youth.

I have to say I'm curious where all these brilliant games are hiding?

Yeah, I have friends with iPhones - and co-workers. All I've seen are cute little toys, or exceedingly inferior Diablo clones and what not. I don't really feel ignorant for saying that, I must say ;)

Especially regarding the "evolution of gaming" - that's rich!

I keep a close eye on every single gaming platform in the world, because I'm platform neutral when it all comes down to it. I've seen plenty of iPhone games that made me curious, and that I consider interesting - but that's missing my point ENTIRELY. I'm saying what would those games have been on the PC - with power and a proper interface. If that's evolution, then you have the concept backwards, my friend.

Playing games "on-the-go"? Well, I guess that's where we differ. I'm not much on the go, and the last thing I want from a game is something that I don't have to invest in at all. I'd rather have a conversation, or simply stare into thin air, contemplating life - than playing some kind of throwback to the ancient days when gaming was something else ;)
 
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What i often find is that ... especially handhelds come with a "cuteness factor" of graphics of games that I completely miss on the PC.

The PC has developed into a "grim graphics platform", with nothing like cuteness there at all - except casual games, maybe.

But rather "professional games" are rather looking dark, grim & most of all : Realistic ! on the PC platform.

Games with graphics like in Plants vs. Zombies are unthinkable on the PC platform outside of the "casual games" market.

I think, I fear, that the PC platform just develops into a special kind of "console" in itself containing a special kind/set of games. And these are mostly shooters & RTS, preferrably dark and realistic looking. A "cuteness factor" would be sacrilege on the PC platform nowadays.

So, consoles of any kind (inclusive iphones) breath a kind of freshness, graphically-wise. New, colourful and fresh looking games that often have a cuteness factor in them.
 
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Exactly why are we ignorant because we haven't seen a single mobile game, that can compare to anything we (really) enjoy on the PC? Unless you're talking about 10-15 year old adventure games that we played in our youth.

I have to say I'm curious where all these brilliant games are hiding?

Yeah, I have friends with iPhones - and co-workers. All I've seen are cute little toys, or exceedingly inferior Diablo clones and what not. I don't really feel ignorant for saying that, I must say ;)

Especially regarding the "evolution of gaming" - that's rich!

I keep a close eye on every single gaming platform in the world, because I'm platform neutral when it all comes down to it. I've seen plenty of iPhone games that made me curious, and that I consider interesting - but that's missing my point ENTIRELY. I'm saying what would those games have been on the PC - with power and a proper interface. If that's evolution, then you have the concept backwards, my friend.

For one, you assume that a developer spending time on an iPhone game could be spending it on a PC game. Sure, maybe, if the developer wanted it. But it's exactly the capablilities of the iPhone, the SDK provided by Apple and the distribution model that are drawing developers to the platform, indies and professionals alike!

There's an ongoing discussion between iPhone gamers over whether it should play games that are pick-up and play or that it's just as well-suited for full games as well. That's purely subjective, of course. However, if you consider the PSP and NDS games comparable in gaming enjoyment potential to early consoles (PS, PS2, Xbox, etc.), then the iPhone deserves a mention, too.

Many people still believe that the game offering on PSP and NDS are of higher quality than the iPhone. To some extent they are right, but it's an industry problem, not technological. That said, some of the best games, offering 50+ hours of gameplay, are available on iPhone. For example:

- GTA: China Town Wars
- Puzzle Quest
- Crimson Gem Saga
- Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney

Furthermore, iPhone has seen light of day for games like:

- Chaos Rings
- Space Miner
- Sword of Fargoal
- N.O.V.A.
- Unowar
- Mecho Wars
- Rogue Planet
- Critter Crunch
- Warpgate

Just a small selection worth checking out. Do they compare to PC games? Probably not 1-on-1, but they play to, or show, the strenghts of the platform. There are asynchronous turn-based multi-player games, multi-player online first-person shooters, games that would never work on another platform, and developers that could never have hoped to make a dent in the gaming industry without the iPhone's existence.

Take a little game like Spider: The Secret of Bryce Manor. I have only read the reviews and played a Lite, which showed off some gameplay, but it's a great example of how the touchscreen adds to the experience. Angry Birds is a huge success with solid gameplay—and the movie industry has shown an interest for turning it into a feature film.

These all go far beyond mere ScummVM adventure games. You're looking at the wrong device, I'm thinking. Not that those aren't a blast to play on your phone.

But the best thing, I think, about all of this, is that small developers actually have a chance of making it on the iPhone. Maybe that's a money-oriented goal, but it's a real one. It says nothing about their willingness to make the best game they can. They compete on the same level as the big boys, even though their game will probably sell for $1.

And that's the bad thing about it. Gamers expect their games to be dirt cheap. Full, complete games, that cost $40 on other platforms.

Update to your update: ;)

Playing games "on-the-go"? Well, I guess that's where we differ. I'm not much on the go, and the last thing I want from a game is something that I don't have to invest in at all. I'd rather have a conversation, or simply stare into thin air, contemplating life - than playing some kind of throwback to the ancient days when gaming was something else ;)

But that's very subjective, isn't it? That *you* do not want such games, does not invalidate mobile or hand-held platforms as a good place for games—casual or hardcore.
 
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For one, you assume that a developer spending time on an iPhone game could be spending it on a PC game. Sure, maybe, if the developer wanted it. But it's exactly the capablilities of the iPhone, the SDK provided by Apple and the distribution model that are drawing developers to the platform, indies and professionals alike!

Of course they could be doing that. There are MANY MANY more free tools available for the PC (FOR the PC) than there will ever be for the iPhone. I'm using Visual Studio Express and XNA myself. So?

There's an ongoing discussion between iPhone gamers over whether it should play games that are pick-up and play or that it's just as well-suited for full games as well. That's purely subjective, of course. However, if you consider the PSP and NDS games comparable in gaming enjoyment potential to early consoles (PS, PS2, Xbox, etc.), then the iPhone deserves a mention, too.

I won't try to decide what they should or shouldn't do. Personally, based on pure reasoning and logic - the platform is 100% inferior in every single way, EXCEPT the mobility aspect, which I care nothing about.

Many people still believe that the game offering on PSP and NDS are of higher quality than the iPhone. To some extent they are right, but it's an industry problem, not technological. That said, some of the best games, offering 50+ hours of gameplay, are available on iPhone. For example:

Nah, they seem about the same to me - though I haven't played many, as I've only tried them casually. None have appealed to me.

- GTA: China Town Wars
- Puzzle Quest
- Crimson Gem Saga
- Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney

Furthermore, iPhone has seen light of day for games like:

- Chaos Rings
- Space Miner
- Sword of Fargoal
- N.O.V.A.
- Unowar
- Mecho Wars
- Rogue Planet
- Critter Crunch
- Warpgate

I'm aware of, say, half of those games - as in having tried them, or watched videos of them. None of them appeal to me in a way that would urge me to sit down and invest myself. Cute and entertaining? Sure.

Just a small selection worth checking out. Do they compare to PC games? Probably not 1-on-1, but they play to, or show, the strenghts of the platform. There are asynchronous turn-based multi-player games, multi-player online first-person shooters, games that would never work on another platform, and developers that could never have hoped to make a dent in the gaming industry without the iPhone's existence.

Probably not? Don't you mean CERTAINLY not? ;)

Take a little game like Spider: The Secret of Bryce Manor. I have only read the reviews and played a Lite, which showed off some gameplay, but it's a great example of how the touchscreen adds to the experience. Angry Birds is a huge success with solid gameplay—and the movie industry has shown an interest for turning it into a feature film.

Haven't heard of it - will check it out.

But the best thing, I think, about all of this, is that small developers actually have a chance of making it on the iPhone. Maybe that's a money-oriented goal, but it's a real one. It says nothing about their willingness to make the best game they can. They compete on the same level as the big boys, even though their game will probably sell for $1.

Developers have exactly the same chance on the PC, depending on their goals and their business model. It depends on your investment and your need for profit. Apple are exploiting the creative side of people, and not endorsing creative freedom.

I'd like to claim that the number one reason professional developers are moving to the mobile platform is money. That's why I can deal with the loss, because I'm not too interested in greed-driven developers. I'd rather have developers with a vision that doesn't look like a dollar-sign in the eyes ;)

But that's very subjective, isn't it? That *you* do not want such games, does not invalidate mobile or hand-held platforms as a good place for games—casual or hardcore.

Of course not, but it also doesn't make me stupid og ignorant for having taken such a position, now does it ;)

I'm simply speaking subjectively about what I think of the platform as a gaming machine. That I can't fathom people think it's actually an evolution, is one thing - but I'm not trying to take away your enjoyment. If you really think playing those games compares to what it was like playing System Shock or X-Com for the first time, or something like that - well, that's great ;)

No, I'm not aware of every single game on the mobile market. I've seen, maybe, a few hundred - and a few dozen on the iPhone. Does that make me an expert? No. But it's enough to have the opinion that I have, and no matter how many minor "interface" enhancements or "take the gamer into the experience" steps forward I hear about, there's simply NO WAY - such a device could ever compete with a good PC game. But that's me, and that's what I'm basing my opinion that the iPhone is, basically, a crappy gaming platform on.

Call me greedy when it comes to quality ;)

I'm not the one calling names, here - which I generally never do. Rather, I generally never start out with that ;)
 
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First of all, I didn't call you stupid or ignorant. I took special care not to. Rather, through education, I would have you stop making stupid or ignorant remarks. ;)

Secondly, lots can be said about all of this, but it all comes down to:

- You don't like developers that have money as one of their goals
- You only like games that require a deep personal investment

Both do not automatically make the AppStore and iPhone platform unworthy of gaming. That *you* think it is, is fine. But it's still just an opinion that most people, both inside and outside the industry, do not share. [citation needed]

Making quality games also costs money. If a small developer quits his job and spends five months working at his game full-time, investing around $50,000 in the process, it's nothing less than essential that you think about how your returns will turn out. On the AppStore, I'd wager that the chance is a bit higher than on PC. Choosing the AppStore does not then make a developer greedy. You are too set in your anti-money, greed-destroys-all-creativity ways, in my opinion.

Deep PC games will require more investment and have a higher learning curve, on average. You know, personally, I don't like those kinds of games. I lose interest really fast. I buy lots of games for full price, play them for a couple of hours and then have the need for a new title. Big waste of money, that! :( But a game needs not be like that to be called a good game.

And so, iPhone is relevant as a gaming device. Sure, not as powerful as a PC, but it's mobile! Of course that's one of its biggest strenghts! It does not or has ever competed with PCs or consoles. I have never claimed it does! It can, however, compete with other mobile and hand-held devices. Plus, its touchscreen and accellerometer/gyroscope/compass controls are capable of bringing new kinds of control schemes to the table. It has caused many developers to rethink gaming: hence, innovative (like the NDS in its time).

The discussion is over on my part, since all has been said, and I don't think anything else needs to be said.
 
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Consoles were used for serious gaming long before PCs were, yet PC gaming only got better, so I don't think the fact that you can game on a console or iDevice takes anything away from PC gaming.

Personally I have an iPod touch - I don't need a phone, but I did want a portable internet capable device. The fact that I now enjoy fantastic games like Osmos on it doesn't take away from other games I enjoy on the PC (in fact I have Osmos on the PC too, but it's not as fun as on the iPod, due to the interface). Released today would Broken Sword sell on the PC? I doubt it, but I love the iPod version, so I'm supporting developers that might not otherwise be supported.

Would I play an RPG on the iPod? Yes, if it was fun. And that's what games are about, regardless of platform.
 
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First of all, I didn't call you stupid or ignorant. I took special care not to. Rather, through education, I would have you stop making stupid or ignorant remarks. ;)

Now we can start talking about arrogance!

- You don't like developers that have money as one of their goals

What? I don't judge people based on what they do for a living. I generally don't think it's a big loss, when I don't get to play games, that are created with greed as the motivation. Pretty huge difference, if you weren't so ignorant in your remarks ;)

- You only like games that require a deep personal investment

No, not really. I like games that INSPIRE me to make an investment. I never said anything about deep or personal. Another ignorant remark ;)

Both do not automatically make the AppStore and iPhone platform unworthy of gaming. That *you* think it is, is fine. But it's still just an opinion that most people, both inside and outside the industry, do not share. [citation needed]

Unworthy of gaming? Are you trying win a prize making ignorant remarks? ;)

Haha, ok, I'll stop now. Nah, I just think it's a crappy platform. Great games, as I said, can be on any platform - but that doesn't make the platform suited for them.

Making quality games also costs money. If a small developer quits his job and spends five months working at his game full-time, investing around $50,000 in the process, it's nothing less than essential that you think about how your returns will turn out. On the AppStore, I'd wager that the chance is a bit higher than on PC. Choosing the AppStore does not then make a developer greedy. You are too set in your anti-money, greed-destroys-all-creativity ways, in my opinion.

I'm making a great game for free, currently!

It's only in the consumer-obsessed market mindset that great games have to cost a lot of money. They don't.

Deep PC games will require more investment and have a higher learning curve, on average. You know, personally, I don't like those kinds of games. I lose interest really fast. I buy lots of games for full price, play them for a couple of hours and then have the need for a new title. Big waste of money, that! :( But a game needs not be like that to be called a good game.

Great, I guess that's why you enjoy the shallow gaming industry and good for you! ;)

And so, iPhone is relevant as a gaming device. Sure, not as powerful as a PC, but it's mobile! Of course that's one of its biggest strenghts! It does not or has ever competed with PCs or consoles. I have never claimed it does! It can, however, compete with other mobile and hand-held devices. Plus, its touchscreen and accellerometer/gyroscope/compass controls are capable of bringing new kinds of control schemes to the table. It has caused many developers to rethink gaming: hence, innovative (like the NDS in its time).

Relevant? Obviously it's relevant. It's practically born for the consumer without time or the interest in investing himself. It's the shallow gamer's dream.

The discussion is over on my part, since all has been said, and I don't think anything else needs to be said.

I think you're right.

In case you don't realise it, most of my remarks in this post have been tongue-in-cheek. Obviously, you're not interested in a serious debate - and you're basically just interested in humorous insults, and that's ok. I enjoyed them.
 
Released today would Broken Sword sell on the PC? I doubt it, but I love the iPod version, so I'm supporting developers that might not otherwise be supported.

Actually, they released the Director's Cut of Broken Sword on PC, too, a couple of days ago. I have no idea how it sells, though. I haven't even seen screenshots yet!
 
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Haha, ok, I'll stop now. Nah, I just think it's a crappy platform. Great games, as I said, can be on any platform - but that doesn't make the platform suited for them.

You haven't said anything about any hand-held device. What's your opinion on the PSP, NDS, 3DS, etc. then?

I'm making a great game for free, currently!

It's only in the consumer-obsessed market mindset that great games have to cost a lot of money. They don't.

Let's see your game and then decide if it's great, shall we? ;) I'm assuming that your definition of great isn't the same as mine in this day and age.

But if you want to make an 8-bit retro game, it's probably possible, using some royalty-free music, sound effects and graphics, maybe. Even then, a good game is a bitch to develop! Like I said, put up or get out. ;)

In case you don't realise it, most of my remarks in this post have been tongue-in-cheek. Obviously, you're not interested in a serious debate - and you're basically just interested in humorous insults, and that's ok. I enjoyed them.

Oh, this whole discussion has basically been about my opinion vs. your opinion! Which is what most discussions are like, I suppose. But neither of us is budging one centimeter. ;)
 
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You haven't said anything about any hand-held device. What's your opinion on the PSP, NDS, 3DS, etc. then?

Well, they're dedicated gaming platforms - which means the interface is a lot better.

Still, most of the games don't appeal to me. Too shallow and "cute", with a few notable exceptions.

But I think you keep missing the point. Great games CAN exist, even on the iPhone.

I'm talking about whether that makes the platform great for gaming, which I don't think it does. PARTICULARLY not a phone.

Let's see your game and then decide if it's great, shall we? ;) I'm assuming that your definition of great isn't the same as mine in this day and age.

Why would it be? ;)

I'm not making it for you - I'm making it for me, and those like me ;)

But if you want to make an 8-bit retro game, it's probably possible, using some royalty-free music, sound effects and graphics, maybe. Even then, a good game is a bitch to develop! Like I said, put up or get out. ;)

I'll put up once it's done - if I ever manage it. You might be surprised though, except it's not a shallow game.

Oh, this whole discussion has basically been about my opinion vs. your opinion! Which is what most discussions are like, I suppose. But neither of us is budging one centimeter. ;)

Why budge when we each believe in our position?
 
Actually, they released the Director's Cut of Broken Sword on PC, too, a couple of days ago.

They did ? GREAT ! :) Must get it !!! :)
 
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What i often find is that … especially handhelds come with a "cuteness factor" of graphics of games that I completely miss on the PC.

The PC has developed into a "grim graphics platform", with nothing like cuteness there at all - except casual games, maybe.

But rather "professional games" are rather looking dark, grim & most of all : Realistic ! on the PC platform.

Games with graphics like in Plants vs. Zombies are unthinkable on the PC platform outside of the "casual games" market.

I think, I fear, that the PC platform just develops into a special kind of "console" in itself containing a special kind/set of games. And these are mostly shooters & RTS, preferrably dark and realistic looking. A "cuteness factor" would be sacrilege on the PC platform nowadays.

So, consoles of any kind (inclusive iphones) breath a kind of freshness, graphically-wise. New, colourful and fresh looking games that often have a cuteness factor in them.

Agree with the grim comment. One thing I really enjoyed in Baldur's Gate over the sequel was the color palette. The world of BG1 is bright, maybe even clean, where as BG2 is dark and dirty. Playing BG1 the visuals alone put a smile on my face. I can't really explain it, except that it just felt enjoyable. In a lot of ways, it reminded me of Ultima VII.

Not that I don't love BG2 by anymeans, but I much preferred the color of BG1.

As for the platform discussion, I can't see myself playing too many games on a phone, even an iPhone or Droid outside of casual ones. I'm not against it, but never found any that really made me want to play.

Now, I do think that the tablets open up some very cool avenues. Imagine a tactical style 3-D isometric game played on an iPad or 7Pad (when they finally come out). That could be really fun.
 
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Consoles were used for serious gaming long before PCs were, yet PC gaming only got better, so I don't think the fact that you can game on a console or iDevice takes anything away from PC gaming.

I guess it depends on your definition of 'serious gaming.' Personally, despite owning a Pong box, I never took it that seriously.
 
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