Dragon Age 2 - Interview with Mike Laidlaw at Gamespot - Final Thoughts

1- Fallout: New Vegas - not a bad game but, just like Fallout 3, it's action rpg or really an action game with bits of RPG thrown into the pot;

And what is Divinity 2? It's an "action-RPG" as well, you know. I don't get why for so many people it's okay if The Witcher or Divinity 2 are action-RPGs but it's not okay for Fallout: New Vegas to be one.

In any event, maybe I have more eclectic tastes but I don't discount a great RPG because it has real-time action combat. There is much more to being an RPG than playing like Fallout or Baldur's Gate.
 
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Couldn't agree more JDR! Let's look at your list DoctorNarrative:

1- Fallout: New Vegas - not a bad game but, just like Fallout 3, it's action rpg or really an action game with bits of RPG thrown into the pot;
2- Dragon Age: Awakening - just an addon and not a game;
3- Two Worlds 2 - indeed! It is on my "get it" list;
4- Venetica - from what I am reading it's another action game with skill-trees and levelling system added so that it could be called "RPG";
5- Alpha Protocol - started but couldn't be bothered to finish. It's labelled as "The Espionage RPG" but (IMO) it's again an action game very much in ME 2 mold just not as good;
6- Mass Effect 2 - played and liked it. Not an RPG through…

Come now we dont want start a war about what is an rpg. Its been done 100's of time and everyone has there own ideas and not a single developer knows either. Dont get me started on publishers and there ideas of rpgs. Just ask Lars from Larian studios how his pitch for the perfect rpg went.

Really there is nothing we can do as the publishers only care about how much more money they get in returns. Lovely thought isnt. Remember just making a small profit is never enough.

I work for a company that doubled its profit but still according to them came up short despite making a huge profit. Well enough of my rambling.:biggrin:
 
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I have tried to decide what, exactly, annoys me so much about recent Bioware efforts. Because the Mass Effects and DA II really do annoy me. They get under my skin. I should be happy that Bioware is producing something akin to RPGs, but instead I don't enjoy these games and find myself worrying that everyone will copy their formula. I lament their success.

I think I have figured out what it is, and I think at least a few people here feel the same way. A big part of it is that for the new Bioware, "role-playing" means something very close to what "role-playing" means to a psychologist: you take on a character or a set of viewpoints, and then it's all about your conversation choices. Bioware games have become about conversation, punctuated with increasingly less-tactical, less-engaging fighting.

Since Bioware's approach to combat, loot, skills, etc., is increasingly trivial, and often a dull grind, the game then becomes all about your conversation choices, and what sort of character you want to play.

In theory that's fine, and I can see that for some people this is perfect. In the classic sense of the term 'role-playing' -- the dictionary definition that predates D&D -- it is much more correct than the visions of stats, skill trees, damage modifiers, etc. that most of us see when the term 'role-playing' is used.

But the fact is, I just don't like it as much. It doesn't feel like a real game to me. Much of the time I feel like I am just making my character choose postures or attitudes, without really affecting the story arc in a genuinely meaningful way. (It doesn't help when most of the conversation options boil down to "be a good guy" or "be a jerk"; your conversation options tend to be set in stone the instant you decide what sort of character you'll be -- and that's before the game even starts.) But frankly, even if the storyline did branch like crazy, and even if they handled shades of gray much better, I still doubt I would like it as much as what we term an 'old-school' rpg. I want to make strategic and tactical decisions; I want to learn complex systems; I want the game to beat me up and make me fail a few times, so that I have to adjust my strategy in a meaningful and intelligent way, and so I can then enjoy the eventual satisfaction of winning. I do not just want to emote.

Tied in with all this, I genuinely believe that the people at the helm at Bioware -- probably not the level designers, or the artists, or even a lot of the writers, but certainly the lead designers /project leads -- I believe they really want to write movie scripts. I do. But as high as the bar to entry is when you want to design your own video game, the bar to entry to writing Hollywood blockbusters is 1,000 times higher. So they take their video game jobs and do their best to shoehorn movie scripts onto their games. But the reality is, this approach will never create great games. For that, the game has to be designed by someone who isn't trying to do something else entirely.
 
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No, it's not always a case of nostalgia.

It doesn't matter how old any given game is, nostalgia obviously can't be a factor if you've never played it before.

What you played when you were younger is a huge factor. It's not even necessarily the games themselves, but also the style or pace, even the look. You can't dismiss how your tastes and expectations are formed by what you played when it was all new to you... it's incredibly powerful.

I was just listening to a podcast about this the other day. Some journalists were talking about how the worst Mario game is someone's favorite because it is the first one they played when they were a little kid. The same principle applies to television and movies and such... Miami Vice is a freaking terrible TV show but I still love it because I remember my mom letting me stay up and watch it with my dad. That kind of thing molds your tastes for life.
 
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What you played when you were younger is a huge factor. It's not even necessarily the games themselves, but also the style or pace, even the look. You can't dismiss how your tastes and expectations are formed by what you played when it was all new to you… it's incredibly powerful.

I was just listening to a podcast about this the other day. Some journalists were talking about how the worst Mario game is someone's favorite because it is the first one they played when they were a little kid. The same principle applies to television and movies and such… Miami Vice is a freaking terrible TV show but I still love it because I remember my mom letting me stay up and watch it with my dad. That kind of thing molds your tastes for life.

haha, thats way too personal you ostentatious person

just skim read the interview as well, questions werent very 'hard'. he seemed somewhat dismissive of the criticism and from what ive seen from biowear, DA3 will be very simliar to DA2.

but the thing we desperately don't want to lose is the idea that Dragon Age has an alchemy that makes it special. It has party members. It has banter. It has equipping stuff--some of those amazing, classic RPG mechanics that I loved since playing Wasteland or the original Bard's Tale. We wanted to make RPGs, especially fantasy RPGs, accessible, cool, and interesting to people who have been playing RPGs for the last seven years and not realizing that every time they ate food or went for a long run in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas, they were essentially grinding constitution.

To me, that represents a huge audience that may have disregarded RPGs, especially fantasy, as being too hardcore or too confusing. And making certain changes to make the game palatable without ripping out the mechanics that make RPGs so fascinating to a stats guy or what have you. It keeps this genre evolving into something that's fresh and not stagnating

folks, its confirmed, mike laidlaw is persuing the lowest common denominator

then again, it is gamespot, the site that fired one of their journalists for giving kane & lynch a bad score
 
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What you played when you were younger is a huge factor. It's not even necessarily the games themselves, but also the style or pace, even the look. You can't dismiss how your tastes and expectations are formed by what you played when it was all new to you… it's incredibly powerful.

I was just listening to a podcast about this the other day. Some journalists were talking about how the worst Mario game is someone's favorite because it is the first one they played when they were a little kid. The same principle applies to television and movies and such… Miami Vice is a freaking terrible TV show but I still love it because I remember my mom letting me stay up and watch it with my dad. That kind of thing molds your tastes for life.


You shouldn't assume that everyone is affected by nostalgia in the same manner.

There were plenty of games I liked when I was 14 that I don't like now. In fact, my taste has changed quite a bit over the years.

Same thing with films/tv. I see a lot of televesion shows that I used to like as a kid, and have no problem recognizing how shitty they actually were.
 
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And what is Divinity 2? It's an "action-RPG" as well, you know. I don't get why for so many people it's okay if The Witcher or Divinity 2 are action-RPGs but it's not okay for Fallout: New Vegas to be one.

In any event, maybe I have more eclectic tastes but I don't discount a great RPG because it has real-time action combat. There is much more to being an RPG than playing like Fallout or Baldur's Gate.

I think you make a good point here. It's not fair to demand that every RPG must be turn-based and feature dice-rolls to count as a "true RPG." What is important, in my opinion, is the quality and depth of the literal "role-playing." Having deep combat mechanics are just a nice bonus, and it can come in any style; whether it's in the form of real-time action or turn-based tactics is mostly irrelevant to me, as I can enjoy both if they are implemented right. Deep role-playing and meaningful player choice is why Deus Ex and The Witcher are examples of great RPGs in my mind, and why something like DA2 isn't.
 
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Hmmm, I think what the older "classics" had was simplicity. Seriously. There was no heavy dialogue(other then later with the infinity engine games) not many grey choices(did see these in the ultima's though, but thats what those games were about)

Look at Might and Magic for instance(mostly cuz I'm playing 7 now) There is no drama, no party in fighting, no complex plots(this can be debatable, but compare it to say baldurs gate or planescape)...it is go here kill that complete quest. It is done in a way that you want to keep playing. It played off charm. A lot of the older games had that, the bards tale, wizardry etc. They had a complex character system though. Hmm maybe I'm off on a tangent but thats what I'm seeing now.
 
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You shouldn't assume that everyone is affected by nostalgia in the same manner.

There were plenty of games I liked when I was 14 that I don't like now. In fact, my taste has changed quite a bit over the years.

Same thing with films/tv. I see a lot of televesion shows that I used to like as a kid, and have no problem recognizing how shitty they actually were.

It effects everyone, just to different degrees. If I come off as very... teacher-y... about it, it's because I'm a sociology teacher, so it's kind of in my blood. In any case, no offense was meant, I'm just speaking from experience and the average human condition.

Think of it this way: if Oblivion was the very first RPG you ever played, don't you think your tastes in RPGs would be different?
 
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I didn't say it doesn't affect everyone, I said it doesn't affect everyone in the same manner.

There are certain things in which nostolgia does impact me quite a bit. Like visiting certain places that I liked as a kid. Gaming however has never been a nostalgic thing for me. I either like a game, or I don't.

I've discovered old games that were nothing like anything I had played before, and found them to be very enjoyable because of nothing other than the fact that they were good games.
 
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Nothing will ever live up to the classics guys, that's how the brain works. Nostalgia is a bitch.

I note that you've since qualified this statement, but it was a little bit of a wide blanket to make. I'd like to think that there are rational people out there than can safely be objective of their long held emotional attachments to things - whether that be literature, film - or games.

Fallout: New Vegas, Mask of the Betrayer, The Witcher, Risen and to a lesser extent Alpha Protocol prove to me that there is still hope for modern cRPGaming and that the classics I loved and cherished whilst being a benchmark in some respects, are certainly in the minds of developers, influencing decisions in modern games. But these newer games are also creating a legacy of their own, independent of the classics, endearing themselves to gamers of different generations.

So nostalgia's not a bitch. I rather like nostalgia - it's a rich channel of memories and emotion that can remind me of how much joy can be had with gaming. :)
Sure, it can potentially adversely affect your enjoyment of something if connections are being made in your mind bewteen two games (DA/BG, Fallout3/Fallout 1+2 as two big examples) But with a conscious mindset, people CAN distance themselves and find something to enjoy about both games.
It need not be so determined by brain chemistry or past attachments to things.
 
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For sure there's no point to want single ever static design plan of RPG. Venetica is quite closer to a design plan I would wish for RPG, its graphics and the places mood are amazing. But Torchligh wich is close to not be a RPG is for me hugely better overall and as a RPG.

But it's quite obvious the first RPG played in a series take more importance, this is more true for series because many tend reuse elements. For example many Oblivion quests story remind me some of Morrowind. Many books in Oblivion was already in Morrowind. Many little tasks that took me busy at some points in Morrowind was again available in Oblivion but just boring to do once more.

The hand guiding, quest cursors, bad difficulty management, are all concrete elements enough to explain why I consider Oblivion such a bad RPG. But my overall feeling is also guided a lot by having played before Morrowind and there's too many copy/paste between both games.
 
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Ok, with the exception of Divinity 2, name just a few of the "plenty" of RPGs for PC released since the beginning of the last year?
LOL pick a single year in the past and not many will throw you that many fairly good RPG.

So for 2010, it's complicated because some RPG tend have various release date depending of the country, so roughly:
  • Dragon Knight Saga
  • Drakensang The River of Time
  • Fallout: New Vegas
  • Eschalon Book 2
  • Dragon Age: Awakening
  • Venetica
  • Din's Curse
  • Avernum 6
  • Two Worlds 2
  • Alpha Protocol (couldn't play it yet, but worth the quote)
  • Winter Voices
  • DeathSpank
  • Mass Effect 2
  • Mount & Blade Warband
  • King's Bounty The Princess

But nope for many players that don't count and only one RPG has been released since century, well since DAO, it's DA2. :rolleyes:
 
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Someone mentioned adventure games in comparision with rpgs. When I talk about adventure games, I talk about games like Secrets of Monkey Island, the Space Quest series, the King's Quest series, the Black Mirror series, the Sherlock Holmes game series.

Oblivion or Tomb Raider or Uncharted are not by any definition adventure games in their truest original sense. If they're anything, they're action adventures. Is Oblivion an rpg? Yes, to me it is. You level up, you get better, you do stuff, your put points into stats and abilities. Is Dragon Age: Origins an rpg. Yes - because you do the same. And if you have 4 stars in cunning, you can persuade anyone.

However, even as a long time rpg-player, I felt that many of the skills used in DA: Orgins were use-less. At the end of the game (at least after Awakening) almost every character had full herbalism skill and full survival skills etc. To me, this is not role-playing. Role-playing to me means that I get to choose what skills I want to develop for my followers, knowing full well that if I don't have a character, an npcs, who has a full herbalism skill, I'm going to get outsmarted somewhere along the way...

And to me, the DA franchise system were all the maths and rolling of dices are done by the computer, is perfectly fine. Crpgs originally came out of the AD&D setting, hence people expects a crpg to play out like a pen and paper session of D&D. But, today, they don't e.g. computer role-playing games should be built on what the computer is good at i.e. computing numbers. If a company tried to make such a game, based on D&D they'd soon go out of business...

And yes, even in the adventure games (original) as I've listed above, I like story, plot, dialogue, conversations, characters. That's why I have a had time playing puzzle-games like say Myst, or Rhem 2.
 
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LOL pick a single year in the past and not many will throw you that many fairly good RPG.

So for 2010, it's complicated because some RPG tend have various release date depending of the country, so roughly:
  • Dragon Knight Saga
  • Drakensang The River of Time
  • Fallout: New Vegas
  • Eschalon Book 2
  • Dragon Age: Awakening
  • Venetica
  • Din's Curse
  • Avernum 6
  • Two Worlds 2
  • Alpha Protocol (couldn't play it yet, but worth the quote)
  • Winter Voices
  • DeathSpank
  • Mass Effect 2
  • Mount & Blade Warband
  • King's Bounty The Princess

But nope for many players that don't count and only one RPG has been released since century, well since DAO, it's DA2. :rolleyes:

Well unfortunately I personally dont care for half that list of games.
 
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Who do you think that care you care or not? Lol in no way your care can be the point.

the RPGWatch is made of care bro

remember that, this site would never have existyes if it wasnt for the care of an obscure niche of a niche
 
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I didn't say it doesn't affect everyone, I said it doesn't affect everyone in the same manner.

There are certain things in which nostolgia does impact me quite a bit. Like visiting certain places that I liked as a kid. Gaming however has never been a nostalgic thing for me. I either like a game, or I don't.

But what you like is heavily influenced by your early exposures to the medium. I'm not saying you like Baldur's Gate because of nostalgia, I am saying you find X intriguing or Y annoying about some modern game because of what you played when you were more impressionable.

My first RPG was Fallout and shortly after that Baldur's Gate and Fallout 2. That heavily influences what I like about RPGs today. I am not saying I only like Fallout because it was my first RPG, it is objectively a good game. I am saying that Fallout being my introduction to RPGs molded some of my expectations and tastes about the genre.
 
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