Blizzard has stated that the Beta section is more linear than the rest of the game because of the whole starting-area-tutorial thing. We can expect more randomization throughout the rest of the game.
Diablo 3 - Open Beta Weekend
- Thread starter Dhruin
- Start date
People still repeating the argument about minor vs major character choices or the "skill trees" being fundamentally wrong should realize:
- in between those 50 minor choices you mention, there are big choices hidden. Yes, traditionally, you pick a skill and then level up it a few times. Don't try to pretend there's no "pick a skill" part. There is and there is also planning involved.
- "Skill tree" doesn't even automatically mean ability to level-up skills included. It does not imply "minor choices" at all. Imagine a tree where each skill has two 'child' skills and none of them could be leveled up.
Having the skills not organized in the tree and having the ability to respec your character any time means you are effectively not doing any choices at all - none of them has any lasting impact.
Cliched question: Is it even an RPG, when you can completely change your character any time? (yes, within the bounds of class, but still)
More of my concerns with Diablo 3 beta:
----------------------------------------------------
- Of course, the connection problems. I know this was the whole point of beta, but refuse to pay 80 dollars (europe) for a single player game (that's what diablo has always been for me) suffering from server down-times.
- I wonder why this is not mentioned at all: the game is too damn fast. It even encourages you to kill as fast as possible, to smash as many objects in as little time as possible etc. Stop stressing me!
- The game is too easy. Beta was 2-4 hours long depending on the playstyle, so don't try to tell me it was "the tutorial". As for higher difficulties - will they be instantly available at the start of a new game?
- Loot. Loot sucks. Very limited abilities on the items, zero rarity randomization (so it wouldn't unbalance the auction house) - you won't get anything "too good", game changing, ever. There's the "crafting" system, but it is only a way how to melt a lot of items and money (= time) in something slightly better.
- No tactical difference from different weapon types.
- No random quests.
- The stupidity of mage wearing two handed swords to increase the damage of his frost blast (I smell auction house economy behind this, again).
- Primary abilities pushed out of the system so much that you really don't think about them at all.
- Art style, but this is fairly minor - the game looks good enough. It's no ponies and rainbows anymore, but we still have:
- Crazy female adventures running in dungeon in high heels, hair covering their eyes.
- Barbarians throwing freaking explosions from their axes with the most basic attack.
- Skeletons twisted in a "funny" ways.
- Leoric, who learned to fly in a past decade and overall looks like he spent it in Warcraft universe.
I have no problem with cartoonish look of other games, but i still remember naked female bodies on stakes from Diablo 1.
Overall, the game is bit better than OK. It's very very polished, looks good enough has a good feel (awesome button feel, everything you do has "awesome" sound and visual feedback), plays fluidly.
I didn't want to use this word but here it is: It is mindless. Its like Bejeweled - compulsive, mildly entertaining, good feeling.
Enough.
- in between those 50 minor choices you mention, there are big choices hidden. Yes, traditionally, you pick a skill and then level up it a few times. Don't try to pretend there's no "pick a skill" part. There is and there is also planning involved.
- "Skill tree" doesn't even automatically mean ability to level-up skills included. It does not imply "minor choices" at all. Imagine a tree where each skill has two 'child' skills and none of them could be leveled up.
Having the skills not organized in the tree and having the ability to respec your character any time means you are effectively not doing any choices at all - none of them has any lasting impact.
Cliched question: Is it even an RPG, when you can completely change your character any time? (yes, within the bounds of class, but still)
More of my concerns with Diablo 3 beta:
----------------------------------------------------
- Of course, the connection problems. I know this was the whole point of beta, but refuse to pay 80 dollars (europe) for a single player game (that's what diablo has always been for me) suffering from server down-times.
- I wonder why this is not mentioned at all: the game is too damn fast. It even encourages you to kill as fast as possible, to smash as many objects in as little time as possible etc. Stop stressing me!
- The game is too easy. Beta was 2-4 hours long depending on the playstyle, so don't try to tell me it was "the tutorial". As for higher difficulties - will they be instantly available at the start of a new game?
- Loot. Loot sucks. Very limited abilities on the items, zero rarity randomization (so it wouldn't unbalance the auction house) - you won't get anything "too good", game changing, ever. There's the "crafting" system, but it is only a way how to melt a lot of items and money (= time) in something slightly better.
- No tactical difference from different weapon types.
- No random quests.
- The stupidity of mage wearing two handed swords to increase the damage of his frost blast (I smell auction house economy behind this, again).
- Primary abilities pushed out of the system so much that you really don't think about them at all.
- Art style, but this is fairly minor - the game looks good enough. It's no ponies and rainbows anymore, but we still have:
- Crazy female adventures running in dungeon in high heels, hair covering their eyes.
- Barbarians throwing freaking explosions from their axes with the most basic attack.
- Skeletons twisted in a "funny" ways.
- Leoric, who learned to fly in a past decade and overall looks like he spent it in Warcraft universe.
I have no problem with cartoonish look of other games, but i still remember naked female bodies on stakes from Diablo 1.
Overall, the game is bit better than OK. It's very very polished, looks good enough has a good feel (awesome button feel, everything you do has "awesome" sound and visual feedback), plays fluidly.
I didn't want to use this word but here it is: It is mindless. Its like Bejeweled - compulsive, mildly entertaining, good feeling.
Enough.
I've run the beta a few times and never taken even 2 hours to complete it. My first run was about an hour and a half, future ones were about an hour. And yes it's a tutorial. It's not even the complete tutorial, there are a lot of features that aren't introduced yet. Lots of RPG tutorial areas are 1-2 hours or longer.
Even the hardest RPGs frequently have ridiculously easy introductory areas. For example the Spiderweb software games like Avernum are famous for being insanely hard, but if you judged the difficulty from the first few hours you'd think they were insanely easy.
Regarding Customization, there's a good post here illustrating the difference in the number of choices between D2 and D3.
http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/221423-diablo-iii-the-customizability-story/#post405
Even the hardest RPGs frequently have ridiculously easy introductory areas. For example the Spiderweb software games like Avernum are famous for being insanely hard, but if you judged the difficulty from the first few hours you'd think they were insanely easy.
Regarding Customization, there's a good post here illustrating the difference in the number of choices between D2 and D3.
http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/221423-diablo-iii-the-customizability-story/#post405
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Some googling: consensus seems to be that beta offered approximately two hours of gameplay. If that's the tutorial and not even complete, this alone is a serious issue. Why would I want to re-play 2+ hours tutorial with every character i start?
As for the linked comparison: It tries to pretend putting skill points into something in D2 equals zero choice, while choosing runes in D3 means "new skill". It also omits you had primary stats in D2.
But that was not my point anyway - my point was: I'm used to do choices with lasting impact (often not absolutely clear) in my RPGs. You make zero such choices in D3.
As for the linked comparison: It tries to pretend putting skill points into something in D2 equals zero choice, while choosing runes in D3 means "new skill". It also omits you had primary stats in D2.
But that was not my point anyway - my point was: I'm used to do choices with lasting impact (often not absolutely clear) in my RPGs. You make zero such choices in D3.
Anytime you replay a game, you have to redo the easy section in the beginning. That's always the most painful part of a replay, but D3 is no different in that regard. With that being said, on a replay it's very easy to make it through the beta in an hour since you know where your going and what you are doing.
Putting skill points into things really wasn't much of a choice in D2. You just picked one or two active skills to put your points into, and usually a passive skill. D3 isn't so different in that regard, except that you get more things to choose from, and you can have more active skills because your not forced to pick just 1 to dump your points into.
But yeah your not locked into your choices at all. Most games allow you to respec, so this is very common in modern RPGs. D3 just takes it a step further. That's the big thing which could work really well (especially with the massive skill selection list) or which might flop. The full version does have mechanics in place to discourage you from respeccing too much, but it's still much more freely available and encouraged then other games.
Putting skill points into things really wasn't much of a choice in D2. You just picked one or two active skills to put your points into, and usually a passive skill. D3 isn't so different in that regard, except that you get more things to choose from, and you can have more active skills because your not forced to pick just 1 to dump your points into.
But yeah your not locked into your choices at all. Most games allow you to respec, so this is very common in modern RPGs. D3 just takes it a step further. That's the big thing which could work really well (especially with the massive skill selection list) or which might flop. The full version does have mechanics in place to discourage you from respeccing too much, but it's still much more freely available and encouraged then other games.
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First thing first:
http://www.youryoure.com/
Go. Read. Learn. Make you're posts less painful to read.
Now that the rude stuff i over, back to the discussion:
Even the games with unskippable tutorials vary in their length, don't they.
This takes away any meaning from most actions you do during the game and puts more importance to the length of time you spend doing them. Very MMO-like.
http://www.youryoure.com/
Go. Read. Learn. Make you're posts less painful to read.
Now that the rude stuff i over, back to the discussion:
False. Some allow you to skip the tutorial, even if it is "integrated" into a game (which seems to be a trend today). Examples: Amalur, NWN2.
Even the games with unskippable tutorials vary in their length, don't they.
It is common in RPGs whose target audience is expected not to be able to make choices and take responsibilities for them.
This takes away any meaning from most actions you do during the game and puts more importance to the length of time you spend doing them. Very MMO-like.
Please (no sarcasm here), tell me about/link me to these mechanics. I would be interested to hear about them.
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Most games ask you to put points in one ability or the other without explaining what they do. Without you knowing how they function. So what do you do then. You usually go online and find some guide which explains what they do. And in the end you'll start playing the way the guide tells you to, because you're afraid to risk putting points into stuff you don't know if they are any good. That's how most people end up with cookie cutter builds. There is no room for experimentation. What Diablo 3 does is let you experiment freely up until you reach level 60 and start going into Inferno. That's when the Nephalem Valor mechanic kicks in.
He's talking about the Nephalem Valor mechanic. What it does is after you unlock all abilities at level 60 you start gaining valor points the more you do not change your abilities. And what the valor points do is grant you increased magic find. The longer you stay with one build the more magic find you have. The better the chance to find cool items. And when you change an ability it resets.
It doesn't force you to stay with one build, but it encourages you to.
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Yes I made a grmmatical error. If you are going to get all high and mighty about that you should avoid your own grammatical errors, mr. "I'm used to do choices"
Yes there are games where you can skip the easy section in the beginning. There are many more where you can't. Depending on the game it can stay easy for hours or minutes.
Well you don't necesarily have to like the trend for RPGs allowing respec these days. But it's still there, so D3 isn't exactly uncommon for doing it.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4241234476
It's kind of an awkward mechanic though and it doesn't kick in until max level.
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