Witcher Abby, evil? Say, what? :) Spoilers!

Acleacius · December 23, 2007

This has SPOILERS from Chapter 1 and was moved here from the Big Fight in Chapter 1 post, since it required me to have more than 10 Spoiler tags, it was getting messy.

I switched back to the Short/Default English version so if there is an issue/mistake due to translation from Polish, oops.

There is absolutely nothing in MY game that suggest Abby knew Ilsa would kill herself, I even carried that bottle with me for every conversation and never got to question her directly about Ilsa. The only dialog tree I didn't do was picking the 4 or so incorrect answers to the question of the Beast. Having tested and double tested, I was never able to ask her about the Poison Bottle and the only time this comes up in conversation is in the cave. When Geralt speaks to her Abby says "Mykl raped Ilsa", Geralt replies "You profited from the poison".

Then, Abby in a separate description of Haarg's and Odo's incidents from the previous dialog about Mykl and Ilsa, Geralt responds "You knew and did nothing".
This statement from Geralt proves to be untrue and unfair, as she is a single woman in a town full of rape, racist and murder gangs whom actually did do something. After, as a little girl from this village who at the very least was forced to watch as her puppy was skinned alive, became a witch to defend herself.

While we don't know the extent of her powers besides being very skilled at making potions, she seems have made the doll, after the fact to try to punish Odo through torment and/or guilt. Secondly she seemed to only promised to sleep with Haarg if he would sell weapons to the Squirrels, as punishment for selling a Squirrel to the Guards. Yet Haarg claims this as she was forcing him, well yeah sure this is true but only in the context of sex.

Odo, claims she put a spell on him to kill his brother, there are two HUGE problems with this, if true how would Odo know this? It's called Projection. The Reverend clearly says "she has abilities beyond the understanding of these simple folk". and secondly is Odo's claim of hatred of warriors, which most likely comes from jealously over Warriors being able to attract women, i..e. Abby whom Odo must have had a crush on, yet his brother earned her desire, driving him into his Murderous state, NOT Abby's Potions.

So she was trying to do something by reacting to the environment she lived in and imo tells us about Geralt as well as providing more depth, even as hard as he may try at being impartial, occasionally he gets it wrong.

Dhruin · December 23, 2007

She did nothing to make the town better, other than using her powers to surreptitiously pursue vengeance on the people she hated. She is more sympathetic than the others and perhaps her history offers some justification but she still does the wrong thing.

Acleacius · December 23, 2007

How about an example, I don't recall ever seeing/hearing of her using her powers to "surreptitiously pursue vengeance", as only thing that comes to mind is self-defense which I can list at least one example?

She caused the guy in front of her house to have stomach craps because he tried to take her sexually, yet she didn't kill. Ask any girl you know if they would love to have that power if a guy tries to force himself on her, I used to teach women's and children's self-defense and I can assure you they would love it.

How are these for trying to be a better person and fighting against the odds in a town full of Bastards?
She offered to care for the child, when she said "Think I would turn my back on an orphan?".
Or that fact that she constantly offered to help Geralt solve the problems, without ever trying to charge for her information or exploit us as the others did.
How about offering to teach a spell for free if we promised to never tell anyone the recipe, to help in the fight against the Beast.

skavenhorde · December 23, 2007

Right at the end of the chapter when you save the child from the cave he says that Abby gave him to the reverend as a peace offering and then the reverend gave him to the Salamandra. I don't remember the entire dialogue but that was how he ended up down there in the cave. So which one is the bigger bastard, Abby who gave away a child to save her neck or the reverend who gave the child to a known criminal orginization. Abby's actions up until that point could be justified in one way or another, but not giving up the child. I still chose to help her. She started out with good intentions with the child but the situation deteriorated to the point she was forced to make one really bad decision.

Jabberwocky · December 23, 2007

I'm currently in chapter 2 so if there's anything more to the Abigail story I wouldn't know it. - Just stating that up front.

Based on my Chapter 1 experience, I always felt there was more to Abbey than was presented. In fact, for a while I surmised that she was the beast herself! Something seemed dark about her, like she was hiding something major. Where did you get the information about her seeing her dog skinned alive? I don't recall hearing that anywhere...

Anyhow, I totally get the arguements being made for her virtues, but in the end I have to agree with the conclusion *my* Geralt came to: "I chose the lesser of two evils."

Dhruin · December 23, 2007

Acleacius said:
While we don't know the extent of her powers besides being very skilled at making potions, she seems have made the doll, after the fact to try to punish Odo through torment and/or guilt.

An example of exacting vengeance? How about most of your first quote - but the bit above will do for starters. What is the doll for, again?

Again, I find her more sympathetic than the rest but she had a number of options open to her (like, you know, moving away from these evil people), instead of continuing to live in the community so she could assist and direct their suffering.

Prime Junta · December 23, 2007

@Ac, a question: why is this so important to you? It's clear that many people, myself included, experienced Abigail as a morally ambiguous character. You experienced her as an unsullied blossom of goodness. What's the point of trying to "prove" that she's one or the other?

It's pretty obvious that the developers intended her to be an ambiguous character, open to several interpretations -- if they hadn't, they wouldn't have left Geralt with dialog and quest branch options that support three different interpretations: Abigail as evil (-> Geralt sides with the Reverend), Abigail as good (-> "Who would I be otherwise?"), and Abigail as the lesser evil ("I chose the lesser evil.")

In other words, they deliberately chose to leave her character open, to give the player something to puzzle over. They didn't put in any ironclad "proof" that she's one or the other; instead, they leave it to you, the player, to examine the (circumstantial) evidence and draw your own conclusions.

What was Abigail's role in Odo's murder of his brother? What did she know, when did she know it, and how did she feel about it when selling poison to the raped girl? We don't know for certain: all we have is circumstantial evidence, and our interpretation of her character through our dealings with her; only the writers know for certain.

And that, friends, is what makes the game so damn cool.

magerette · December 23, 2007

I originally supported Abby against the Reverend, but later my opinion of her did indeed change. She, in her own way, was quite manipulative of Geralt, and if she felt comfortable manipulating a cynical mutant with a talent for killing, who might she not manipulate? It was plain that her offer to share his bed was made purely out of self-interest, as later when she's established elsewhere, she tells him "That's all in the past." I thought she was an excellent example of the ambiguous quality of choice in the game--factually you just never are really going to know how bad or good she is--except in your own opinion.

Acleacius · December 24, 2007

skavenhorde said:
Right at the end of the chapter when you save the child from the cave he says that Abby gave him to the reverend as a peace offering and then the reverend gave him to the Salamandra.

I don't remember hearing it was a peace offering but I really didn't think to talk to Alvin again this game, I kept a Save and will check that thanks. I did know the Reverend gave him to Salamandra and was involved with slaving kids but don't recall Abby knowing anything about this.

Jabberwocky said:
Where did you get the information about her seeing her dog skinned alive? I don't recall hearing that anywhere..

When Alvin drinks the potion and the Beast is reciting how it was born of the evil of the men in the village, the Beast stated the men when young skinned the Witch's little puppy alive. I don't remember exactly, but it was definatly that scene.

Dhruin said:
An example of exacting vengeance? How about most of your first quote - but the bit above will do for starters. What is the doll for, again?

Well your quote was "other than using her powers to surreptitiously pursue vengeance"
that is different than self defense the only way she knows how, right? I mean if a girl only knows how to defend herself with martial arts and knocks a guy to the ground if she hits the solarplexes knocking the wind out of him, is that surreptitiously pursuing vengeance? Maybe, but honestly I don't see it that way. Women for the most part should be given the benefit of doubt in these situations, since clearly the majority of violence (at least 90% in RL) is perpetrated by men.
As I mentioned I honestly have no idea what the doll was for, as we got no explanation of what it was used for or it's potential power, if any at all. I have only seen Abby make potions and Heal, hardy sounds the evil type to me.
You maybe right, I don't know maybe she felt an obligation to stay in the village, I mean once your powerful enough to defend yourself in any form, you sort of lose some of the fear that can control your life at times. Maybe she was trying to help

Prime Junta said:
ou experienced her as an unsullied blossom of goodness.

Lol, debating a point of whether someone is evil or not has nothing to do with proving unsullied blossomness.

Your of course are tap dancing around the issue, in the game how much unjustified violence was Initiated by women? OF course she's ambiguous the quest wouldn't have a neutrality if this were not the case, however as you know I am debating the point of evil not ambiguous.

What was Abigail's role in Odo's murder of his brother?"

Exactly, there is no possible way to know without knowing what her powers are capable of as I mentioned, yet if your comfortable condemning an women to death based on NO evidence, well lets just say I hope you never do jury duty.

What did she know, when did she know it, and how did she feel about it when selling poison to the raped girl?

Or did she have any idea at all before knowing, if so did she for some reason think she would use it on one of the men. As Vincent says "If it's a black tongue.it's poison and mostly the wife.".
This is most always self defense, in the RW.

We don't know for certain: all we have is circumstantial evidence

Once again you are spot on about Abby, yet oddly enough in the case of all the men we KNOW they are guilty, funny that.

Yes, it's a cool, game. Cool games are destined to be debated.

Acleacius · December 24, 2007

magerette said:
if she felt comfortable manipulating a cynical mutant with a talent for killing, who might she not manipulate?

Huh? I hope that you aren't throwing in later chapters here for those of us that, haven't finished.

In case you are, Not a single female with the exception of Triss ever has made an acknowledgment of sleeping with Geralt after the fact. I hope was due to rushed nature of the game, as obviously the team seems talented enough to create some relationship responses, at least I have seen so far.

I never got the impression any of the girls Geralt chooses to bed are because he expects them to join a harem, nor did Abby. Clearly it could have been part of the reason, but once again to say it was the only reason and she wasn't attracted to Geralt in a time of high adrenaline, wouldn't be fair either. To me she didn't look scared, she was making a poition that would effect the whole mob, remember what she said? I have to Defend myself.
Damn evil women in this world, eheh!

Prime Junta · December 24, 2007

Acleacius said:
Lol, debating a point of whether someone is evil or not has nothing to do with proving unsullied blossomness.
Your of course are tap dancing around the issue, in the game how much unjustified violence was Initiated by women? OF course she's ambiguous the quest wouldn't have a neutrality if this were not the case, however as you know I am debating the point of evil not ambiguous.

"Ambiguous" means "open to different interpretations." "Evil" is one of these possible interpretations. This is the point I've been defending, not the strawman that you've built.

Exactly, there is no possible way to know without knowing what her powers are capable of as I mentioned, yet if your comfortable condemning an women to death based on NO evidence, well lets just say I hope you never do jury duty.

Since we don't have trials by jury in my country, that's not a very likely eventuality.

As an aside, I didn't side with the mob in either of my play-throughs, so the accusation you're throwing at me is not only (a) ad hominem and (b) offensive; it's also false. The only thing that your repeated accusation demonstrates is that you (1) tend to jump to conclusions and (2) have poor reading comprehension skills. This, of course, has a direct bearing on the weight we should accord to your opinions on this rather complex game, which is written in a way that demands better-than-third-grade reading skills.

There: aren't you happy you got into a barb-slinging contest with me?

skavenhorde · December 24, 2007

Ouch, remind me never to take on either of you guys. I had to look ad hominem up just to make sure it was what I thought it meant :thinking:

@acleacius I know Alvin said that she gave him up to the reverend, but I don't know if the exact words were peace offering. That part stuck out in my mind because up until that point I wanted to slap the living hell out of the degenerates in that town and defend the witch, but after he said that I almost sided with the town folk. She was still the "lesser evil" even after that but it definatly changed my view on how the town was persecuting the poor witch.

With that said Happy Holidays everybody and hope everybody's Christmas is filled with tons of new games and not too much holiday cheer if your driving :party:

Prime Junta · December 24, 2007

Ho ho ho. Ho.

magerette · December 24, 2007

That's a very Euro looking Santa, Prime J--or is it one of the jollier inhabitants of your Dwarf Fortress?

@ Ace
You are idealizing the female of the species, but I suppose I shouldn't complain. It just turned me off to Abby when she snubbed Geralt in Act IV(I think) after he risked his life to save her. It made it pretty clear that far from being a moment of emotional vulnerability( or adrenaline) it was just another tool to influence him to protect her, then so long and hit the road, jack. And no, in my game Geralt isn't trying to "haremize" his conquests, but since the devs included the option, I chose to play him as a man trying for emotional connection, not just a serial Don Juan.
Regardless, though, Abby is a great standout NPC in a game full of exceptional characterizations, so we all win anyway.

Acleacius · December 24, 2007

Please skip as Prime Junta likes going Off Topic.

Prime Junta said:
"Ambiguous" means "open to different interpretations." "Evil" is one of these possible interpretations. This is the point I've been defending, not the strawman that you've built

Good thing too, otherwise you wouldn't be able to inject any baseless accusations of guilt, acquiescing into your Pierrot of Evil.

accusation you're throwing at me is not only (a) ad hominem and (b) offensive; it's also false.

Well I was responding directly to your comments which on one hand you seem to be able to view Abby as Evil and to the death beyond any evidence, at least this is your position from your words, NOT what you did or didn't do IN game.
I however took Good to Neutral, saying Evil is not possible and have provided some decent examples of this with GW and RW infos, yet you constantly insist I am wrong and uneducated.

These, are your usual tactics with me (well I at least hope it's only me) as in numerous threads, for example the thread of possible Root Kit in Bioshock. While I constantly try to stick to facts, the best if my memory att, you will keep saying I don't know what I am talking about even though I am posting accurate and for the most part verifiable infos.

I have been listing, in general RW info about women and violent crime and in the spirit of good debate I made a joke about jury duty. So if you really are offended I apologize out of spirit of good debate, even though you haven't made it clear what you are offended by.
If I don't know how I offended you how can I prevent it happening again?
Your position is Abby is or can be Evil and put to death, while there is no evidence, how is this not ripe for a joke? Or some offense to Finland, unknown to me?
Yet I don't see any ad hominem attack at all, since everything I posted was based in fact and mostly accurate without getting exact details which were never mentioned as needed.

The only thing that your repeated accusation demonstrates is that you (1) tend to jump to conclusions and (2) have poor reading comprehension skills.

I have made no accusations, list a single one if you will or it will certainly fall under dubious tap dancing.

It's certainly possible I have poor reading comprehension skills, which could be due to lack of sleep or matched against your superior comprehension. Yet I frequently find in talking/debating, with you repeatedly use ad hominem attacks against me when you can't find stable ground.

This, of course, has a direct bearing on the weight we should accord to your opinions on this rather complex game, which is written in a way that demands better-than-third-grade reading skills.

Ahh, I see, well I am certainly glad your superior reading, technical and humanitarian skills are here to set me strait. How dare I defend accuracy and your Frivolous Accusations of Evil and Warranted Unjust Mob Murder.

There: aren't you happy you got into a barb-slinging contest with me?

Sure if you say, so. If your uncomfortable with accuracies, maybe it's more convenient to try projecting blame?
Too bad you are offended by my uneducated comprehension and lack linguistic fortitude, if I could become more educated maybe I could calm your propensities.
In case I need to clarify, due to my lack of uneducated comprehension, this means; This is noting personal, we're debating a game and even if you mean it so, I don't take it personally.

Acleacius · December 25, 2007

skavenhorde said:
I don't know if the exact words were peace offering

I sort of remember it too without the, peace offering, honestly haven't had time to check it and if it's there is would certainly give the evil side some substance.

I wanted to slap the living hell out of the degenerates in that town

Yeah, it's sort of creepy and makes my skin crawl too, due to the realism factors of things women have had to endure through out time. :'(

Happy Holidays everybody and hope everybody's Christmas is filled with tons of new games and not too much holiday cheer if your driving

Yes, everyone stay safe, healthy and sane. :dance:

magerette said:
You are idealizing the female of the species, but I suppose I shouldn't complain.

Hehe, nah. They, for the most part just get the benefit of doubt when it comes to violence. What was it Geralt says. "I put women on a pedestal, so high I can see up their dress." and "I am a wild and crazy, guy!"

snubbed Geralt in Act IV(I think)

Lol, Stop Spoiling chapter 4!

I chose to play him as a man trying for emotional connection, not just a serial Don Juan.

Ohh, that would be a good idea, I hope Cd Projekt can have a unknown character next game, so we can generate our toons and have some nice relationship options.

Abby is a great standout NPC in a game full of exceptional characterizations

I thought so, too bad Cd Projekt didn't have time for more detailed NPC responses and character growth, next game.

Edit.
You know it's not just here, I have seen people referring to Abby as Evil or Evil Witch and was part of the point of this thread. It's pretty interesting as I actually replay it looking for evil, yet I can't seem to find it. I don't really think this falls in the bad reviewers topic we have often discussed here as it's pretty obvious some can see evil, where others of us can't, even if we are looking with a microscope, hehe.

Jabberwocky · December 25, 2007

The single thing that made me distrust her the most was when Odo was describing to Geralt a night that he saw the beast, and he mentioned he saw the beast staring in Abby's window. Remembering how the Beast was drawn to evil, this sort of clinched, for me, the idea that the witch wasn't exactly miss goody-two-shoes. Of course, Odo could have been lying, but I saw no real reason for him to.

Oh, and thanks for answering my question about the dog skinning thing.. I didn't remember that part. As I recall (and this could be innaccurate to a degree) concerning Alvin being given to the Reverend, he didn't offer much explanation other than "Abigail said I have to live with the Reverend now. He's going to teach me this and that yadda yadda..." Like I said, that's just how I remember it.

skavenhorde · December 25, 2007

Jabberwocky said:
Alvin being given to the Reverend, he didn't offer much explanation other than "Abigail said I have to live with the Reverend now. He's going to teach me this and that yadda yadda..." Like I said, that's just how I remember it.

That was it. "Abigail said I have to live with the Reverend now." From my perspective that meant that she gave him to the reverend as a peace offering, but that could be interpreted differently. Say that the reverend told her to give him Alvin or she and Alvin would die. Then she did it to save him. Don't really know the whole story on that and even if we did much of what happened could be looked at from different points of view.

This brings me back to a question I asked not too long ago in Off Topic. What is good and evil? Alrik Fassbauer, Gallifrey, Prime Junta and Dusk had some interesting ideas on what exactly is evil and good.

I still think it comes down to perception. Like Acleacius (as Geralt) percieves all of Abby's actions justified by her environment (as do I) but look at it from the reverend's point of view and you see an evil harlot hell bent on ripping the moral fiber from the inhabitants, although the moral fiber had already been ripped out by their own actions or from Jabberwocky (as Geralt) who took what Odo said about the beast and Abby to heart and concluded that she must in fact be evil. All of these things have an air of truth to them but all of them can be interpreted differently. It all depends on the eye of the beholder and no I'm not talking about the game EOB.

Anyways, yes all good games deserve to be debated. Though I don't know of any other game that has made me think about the nature of good and evil as The Witcher has done.

Prime Junta · December 25, 2007

magerette said:
That's a very Euro looking Santa, Prime J--or is it one of the jollier inhabitants of your Dwarf Fortress?

Actually, he's Lebanese.

Photo from Tabarja, to the north of Beirut. That's my father-in-law Selim in the background.

Prime Junta · December 25, 2007

@Acleacius, you know what your mistake is in this discussion?

You're conflating law and ethics.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a great legal principle, but it's a terrible ethical principle.

Abby is evil if she magicked Odo into killing his brother, if she knowingly sold poison to a suicide candidate, and if she had a role in invoking the Hellhound. All of these things are suggested in the game -- by things characters say, by things she says, and by bits of circumstantial evidence left lying around. She is guilty of these things if she did them, irrespective of whether we can prove that she did these things.

I maintain -- and, I have a feeling so do most people on this thread other than you -- that there are enough hints and pointers in the game to make "guilty" a reasonable interpretation of her character. Enough to convict her in a trial by jury? Not if she has a good lawyer, I think -- but people have been executed on flimsier evidence if they had a lousy public defender and were the wrong color. But that is beside the point.

Now, in good Christmas spirit, I would like to apologize to you about my funny joke about your third-grade reading skills (all made in the spirit of good debate, of course). I'll try not to do it again, and I'll try to take into consideration that you're only exercising your mad skills as a comedian the next time you call me unfit for jury duty.

Witcher Abby, evil? Say, what? :) Spoilers!

SasqWatch

SasqWatch

SasqWatch

Little BRO Rat

True Synaesthete

SasqWatch

RPGCodex' Little BRO

Hedgewitch

SasqWatch

SasqWatch

RPGCodex' Little BRO

Little BRO Rat

RPGCodex' Little BRO

Hedgewitch

SasqWatch

SasqWatch

True Synaesthete

Little BRO Rat

RPGCodex' Little BRO

RPGCodex' Little BRO