Hellgate London - Demo EULA Concerns

This is courtesy of Blue's a few days back and I simply forgot to post it. Debate is around in some quarters about the following aspect of the Hellgate: London demo EULA:

3. Consent to Use of Data. You agree that EA, its affiliates, and each Related Party may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer, including without limitation your Internet Protocol address, operating system, application software and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online play. EA and/or the Related Parties may also use this information in the aggregate and, in a form which does not personally identify you, to improve our products and services and we may share that aggregate data with our third party service providers.

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More information.

Lovely. I guess this is why they invented firewalls.

Sir Markus said:

Lovely. I guess this is why they invented firewalls.

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Except if you have online play working you are freely letting information pass through it.

A number of companies have been doing this lately and I think Bioware has been doing this for a few years now. Fate was pretty bad in that they wouldn't admit to installing well known Spyware (which they also installed with AIM).

There's a huge discussion on this over at the Hellgate official forums--and those people are really fans--I counted the words "tin foil hats" about twenty times in one thread....but it all boils down to whether you are willing to allow your computer to be open to "third party providers" and monitoring and data mining "without limitations" when you buy a game.(Which of course, you aren't really doing--you're buying a license to use a copy of a game yadda yadda etc)

One of the reasons I opted out of my beta invite was that even though the intention of this EULA is probably just a CYA for EA to enable them to protect the servers from hackers, bots, and cheats, and even though it throws in "in a form which does not personally identify you" for reassurance, it is worded so loosely that it really permits almost anything. Also "dynamically served content"(in-game advertising) in a game that's also asking for subscription fees is... just greedy IMO.

The other reason was I applied not knowing the beta was purely multiplayer, and I really am only interested in the singleplayer component. Without the EULA I might have tried it, but it was the factor that made me decide "Why bother?"

It's also the factor that makes me say "Spend $60. for a game with ads; stripped features because only online subscribers get new content, elite or hardcore mode, etc; that's received extremely mixed reviews AND has a EULA that enables a huge corporate conglomerate to put programs on my computer that monitor my entire PC?" I try not to be paranoid, but sometimes you need a tin foil hat.

All that said, from what I gathered--and feel free to correct me if I've got it wrong-- the actions described in the EULA are not that far removed from data tracking that's already present in some applications and sites anyway (identifying your IP address, your browser, your operating system, and your browser history to enable target marketing, etc). This just goes a bit farther. With the amount of money involved these days in the industry, I think it's an issue that's going to come up increasingly whenever you purchase, or perhaps I should say "license" a game or piece of software.

magerette said:

It's also the factor that makes me say "Spend $60. for a game with ads; stripped features because only online subscribers get new content, elite or hardcore mode, etc; that's received extremely mixed reviews AND has a EULA that enables a huge corporate conglomerate to put programs on my computer that monitor my entire PC?" I try not to be paranoid, but sometimes you need a tin foil hat.

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EA is the end boss in hellgate. I didnt have enough money to kill it so it sucked me dry of levels and equipment.

10 bucks a month (on top of your initial $50 dollar purchase) gets you...

Elite players are bumped to the front of the line for servers - this is really bullshit. If you ever sat in a WOW que (and your paying there as well) you know this fucking sucks donkey balls

Elite players get 12 characters, regular players get 3 - Take a look at SWG (one character per server shit). I don't understand why developers won't allow you to try different builds/races etc etc....this is just another barrier thrown in by the developers.

Elite players can hold 40 items in lockers around the city, regular players get 20 and can't move them to other players - Can you sell shit to other players? or will you be stuck selling shit to NPC merchants who buy that super rare drop that your character can't wear for 2 copper? Also limiting the amount of space in bags? Every MMO I have ever played has you managing your inventory and it usually is the biggest headache you have next to bugs.

Elite players have access to better shinier gear (the only difference is aesthetic) - whatever; I could give a shit if I was wearing a french maid outfit and a pink fucking tutu as long as the stats were better than Plate Mail of Awesomeness +2.

Elite players have access to shuttles to move easier around the city - This is another bullshit barrier. The most important commodity in MMO's is time. The more you make of your time in a MMO, the more successful you will be by earning more money, raiding with the buds or whatnot. Making you take the slow ride like a public transportation bus rider only pisses you off and go get a cup of coffee, make breakfast, maybe watch a movie while you wait till you get to your destination.

Elite players can own property, regular gamers can't own a house or enter houses - Another bullshit barrier. I would imagine people will possibly have NPC merchants in their house? Maybe additional storage. Whatever it is, if you can't buy shit others can buy and you can't save shit that you could make money off of later, your gonna gimp yourself something fierce.

Elite players get more game types - What the fuck does this mean? They get to play a different game than the one I paid 50 bucks for? If so fuck them.

Elite players get monthly content additions - This I can agree with.

Really, I am a huge diablo and diablo 2 fan and a long time Blizzard fan. Roper and Co. might as well piss down my fucking mouth while I sing Dixie cause this pricing plans sucks balls.

edit: If you couldn't tell, im pretty fucking angry at the nerve of these guys.

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If you pay over 200€ for the game you get your own forum icon.

I tried to warn everyone about three days ago, in both current Hellgate threads (att), but no one here seemed to care.

i cared! its why i haven't installed the demo yet. along with the lackluster reports, and the fact that i'm not all that stoked about the game in the first place. i'm already playing the diablo killer anyhow, chosen

Walp, that pushed me from the "mm, perhaps" category into the "yawn" category. Have fun, Hellgaters; I'm passing on this one.

Sadly, I played the demo. Putting all that 'spyware' thing aside, the game is just not worth it... Been there, done that. Now I'm back with waiting for The Witcher (only 3 days remaining! )

Elite players get more game types - What the fuck does this mean? They get to play a different game than the one I paid 50 bucks for? If so fuck them.

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For those that may be wondering, this refers primarily to Hardcore mode.

Hardcore Mode is a game play mode that allows your character only one chance. If you die once, your character and all your money and gear are gone forever. This may sound ridiculous but for many, this is the only game play mode they play (including me).

The fact that Hardcore mode is only available to paying subscribers is going to cut into Hellgate sales something fierce. After almost a decade, there are still thousands of people playing Hardcore Diablo 2 on Battle.net this very day.

Flagship thinks that fans who play Hardcore mode exclusively are going to buy the game and pay for a subscription. In reality, many fans are just going to skip the purchase altogether.

Reyla said:

For those that may be wondering, this refers primarily to Hardcore mode.

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Non-subscribers are also limited to the Normal and Nightmare difficulty levels only.

zakhal - one little correction: only 2 chars per server in SWG (and I kinda like this limitation because it kills twinks and mules *g*)

SWG was one at the start before the jedi unlock. As far as EULA stuff goes if you are trusting a company enough to subscribe and therefore giving them your credit/debit card details, name, and address well...

Thing is HG:L will have a dedicated team providing ongoing content just like other subscription games. D2 never really had that. How good this team is and what they provide for the money is yet to be seen. I'm just going to wait till the game is out before judging it.

I have (well, OK, had,... I cancelled a couple of years ago) three character slots in SWG. Pre-CU Elder Jedi FTW!!!111

Acleacius said:

I tried to warn everyone about three days ago, in both current Hellgate threads (att), but no one here seemed to care.

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I missed those, but it bugged me enough to blog about it briefly at (former GameSanity) GamingWithChildren.

Wasnt really eager for it anyway. No, this Tiger wont be playing this game.

It's not the ads - It's the EULA

The crux of the issue for me is *not* in game ads. They are not my favorite things on Earth to be certain. I think that in game ads are tantamount to commercials on Satellite TV; we have already paid once, why are we paying twice? The advertising in games, like on TV, is here to stay. We must choose our battles and that is one battle I don't see us winning.

The issue for me is the invasiveness of the EULA. Gathering information about other applications installed? No reporting to the user as to what is being gathered? Sharing information with whom?

I am not saying FSS or EA would do something nefarious with the information gathered. But agreeing to the EULA would give them carte blanche to do so. What information I store on my PCs is my business and no one else's. If you need to profile/demo someone to feed them targeted ads, then please consider taking a survey at regular intervals. This EULA has stepped over a line. Giving someone unrestricted rights to gather data not pertinent to the running of their application as well as warehousing and sharing that data with God only knows who is not going to happen here.

At one point a Community Manager for Ping0 (partner of FSS) began locking threads on the subject and copy/pasted a response to the issue that I felt was uninformed and insulting:

"We all agree in one form or another for what we feel is our private information to be retrieved in many different venues. Do we like big brother breathing down our necks? Probably not as much as it happens. But our lives and lifestyles have all evolved to this. We agree to it at the foodstore when we swipe our discount cards, we agree to it everytime we use our bankcard and we agree to it almost every webpage we hit.
So you can either shut yourself in and become a hermit or adapt and move on. This is life and so be it until... I will refrain from this becoming a political statement."

I found this the "official" response to be insulting and really bad form for a CM during what could be termed a PR issue. Once you get passed the insult and slant, there is the uninformed nature of the post. Cookies do *NOT* peruse ones hard drive and gather data about applications and peripherals installed. They share information about your web visits with other websites. The grocery card analogy is even more flawed. The grocery card gathers information about what is purchased at the times of sale. The card, store, or their partners do not enter my home and inventory my refrigerator and pantry under the premise of providing me a better shopping experience.

Based on the invasiveness of the EULA which grants unknown entities the right to inventory my PC and data and the very uninformed and insulting tact taken by Ping0's community management I will be skipping HGL. The beta was enjoyable. The ads themselves were tastefully executed and not out of place. I simply do not need the baggage or exposure that comes with it.

Acleacius said:

I tried to warn everyone about three days ago, in both current Hellgate threads (att), but no one here seemed to care.

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I noticed, Ace, but I didn't want to respond til I checked it out. Then I opted out, so thanks for bringing it to my attention before I installed the beta.

I don't know that much about consumers laws, but I'm pretty sure that these things mentioned in the EULA for Hellgate:London break Danish consumers laws, and possibly also EU consumer's laws as well.

However, he does a have point, the CM, about the whole big brother thing. Even when his examples used are not that great, I'm using internet explorer version 7 and google to browse the internet. And IE7 and Google also tracks IP adresses etc. to help IE7 and Google become better programs. Microsoft's Windows Update uses the same thing to identify people. And in the EU, soon there will be a EU Law which requires the Internet Providers to track any & all digital information on the internet, from the websites you visit to phones you ring to --- all over the world. The thing is, though, that when I use my Mastercard on the net, or pay for my groceries with with my VISA card, the police etc. can, if they want to, use this to track my habits.
This is what police etc. are doing these days to find missing persons...

I don't think Bioware has ever done some like what EA now is trying to do. I have looked in NWN's and Jade Empire's EULAs, and there are nowhere near anything in those even remotely similar to what EA is trying to pull here. Basically, EA is saying, 'your computer and the content within belongs to us now, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile, we are the Borg, ehm, EA'.

edit:

I have played the demo and found it fun, but I won't be getting the game now. That's for sure...

I don't play games with in game adverts, nor do I give out personal information to food stores to get a discount, I go to a different store, nor do I let big brother track me as in the examples given, well afaik.

The problem is they are installing Malware to the best of my understanding to collect this information, afaik and it's extremely important that you run a good AntiMalware program.

Some people might right this off as no big deal but this is bad news and if you were not signing some vague, probably illegal EULA, this would be theft of personal data and possibly Identity Theft depending on how they use, store and give/sale access others.