Shadowrun Returns - Dragonfall Expansion

You don't get it either :)

Again, it's not about DLC - and I have no problem with an expansion being called DLC.

I have a problem with the word expansion being used when the content is not significant - because that's not how it used to be, and it's too easy to exploit for marketing purposes.

Once again, would you accept calling Horse Armor an expansion?

If not, then why not?

Obviously, because you also have certain expectations of an expansion. Whether you can admit that or not, is another matter.


But of course not. Let's be honest, no one ever "gets it" when DArtagnan deems it so. ;)

Yeah, you don't think an add-on should be called an "expansion" if it doesn't contain a certain amount of content. What a novel opinion. I'm sure no one else thinks the same way.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,344
Location
Florida, US
But of course not. Let's be honest, no one ever "gets it" when DArtagnan deems it so. ;)

Yeah, you don't think an add-on should be called an "expansion" if it doesn't contain a certain amount of content. What a novel opinion. I'm sure no one else thinks the same way.

We can't all be as generously obvious as you ;)

Oh, I'm trying to be novel now.

If it's so common, then why all the bullshit?

I WANT it to be common.
 
Not sure what bullshit you're referring to, although I have to admit I didn't bother reading all the semantics between you and the other guy. When it comes to bullshit though, you certainly know your stuff.

I only know that there was nothing in my post that indicated what my expectations of an expansion should be.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,344
Location
Florida, US
Not sure what bullshit you're referring to, although I have to admit I didn't bother reading all the semantics between you and the other guy. When it comes to bullshit though, you certainly know your stuff.

I only know that there was nothing in my post that indicated what my expectations of an expansion should be.

You sure know how to contribute, don't you.

You managed to join the train - now have a cookie.
 
You sure know how to contribute, don't you.

I didn't know I had to contibute to you personally when I state my opinion about something.

I think you need to realize that not everyone who posts in a thread that you're partaking in is directing their comment at you.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,344
Location
Florida, US
I'm not talking about your contribution to me, but to the thread.

You're kidding yourself if you think I expect something from you to me - once a topic has reached a certain level of complexity.

That's when you're "bored" and everything is stupid.
 
To be honest, I think a lot of us here simply get bored eventually because we know we're not going to outlast you when it comes to semantics. At this point, most of us know to simply let you have the last word and hope to get the thread back on track.

Oh, and if complexity = semantics, which it usually does in your case, then yeah... :)
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,344
Location
Florida, US
I'm not talking about your contribution to me, but to the thread.

You're kidding yourself if you think I expect something from you to me - once a topic has reached a certain level of complexity.

That's when you're "bored" and everything is stupid.

I honestly think you have ruined this thread with another one of your long winded look at me comments. Congrats.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
5,749
Their audience, which means every potential buyer. People will expect of an expansion what they're used to getting from an expansion. Which means that some people will expect more than others.

And, again, you are making WILD assumptions as to what 'people will expect' or what 'people are used to getting.'

Not that age or experience should be used as an argument from authority, but just as an anecdotal example, I've been playing computer games since the TI-99 4A, with a good dose of my 'childhood' spent on a much beloved C-64. My 'expectation' of what an expansion is, based on experience, is probably vastly different than, say, a gamer who cut his PC gaming teeth on WoW and Mass Effect in like 2008.

You play Temple of Apshai? I did. It had an 'expansion' - Dunjonquest. Do you know how SMALL that expansion was? It makes something like Honest Heart for F:NV seem GINORMOUS!

Or Icewind Dale's Heart of Winter (let alone Trials of the Luremaster) and how 'small' that would be compared to, say, Point Lookout for Fallout 3 or Citadel for Mass Effect 3? Yes, HoW would take LONGER to finish, but the content (and code) for either of those add-ons DWARFS what is in HoW.

So how are you measuring expansion? Amount of code? Cost to make? Added features? Cost? Hours of gameplay? I'd argue that you'd be hard-pressed to get any real consensus from a random polling of gamers at all.

Really not that simple.



Which is my point. Expansion used to mean significant content - and today we have very different uses of it.

Used to WHEN? 1980? 1995? 2011? And to WHOM?

Significant content? You want to measure the amount of what you got in Dunjeonquest? In Tales of the Sword Coast? Really?

It isn't rocket science because IT. ISN'T. SCIENCE. It is, at absolute best, speculative based on your personal experiences.

And you are trying to impose that on others, telling people who disagree with you that they are living outside of reality (your reality, really) and that they are spouting (your words) bullshit.

No one ever claimed it had a gold standard. I'm pointing out that not everything can reasonably be called an expansion - because people have been arguing there's no difference between calling something DLC and then calling it an expansion.

Again, this is another straw man. If you don't understand why, then you don't understand the fallacies in your logic. No one is saying that anything and everything can be called an expansion. I gave some broad parameters, and if you wikipedia 'game expansion' or find bloggers ranting about expansion versus DLC (which is where I'm placing your views, with the blogging rantings, your welcome) what you'll see is that no one agrees. You can find people declaring, full-throated, that expansions must be equal in size to the original game. Few 'expansions' would count under that definition, and, honestly, many sequels.

Point out whom you are arguing with that is making, as their point, that expansions can be any addition to a game. Who is making that argument?

No one other than you, to fight against it?

Welcome to what a straw man argument is.

Fantasy land being DLC and expansions beeing freely interchangeable.

See directly above.

No one is arguing that.

At worst, you could try and argue my description of Venn diagrams is me trying to say all DLC are expansions - but you would be absolutely missing my point. The circle of all things that are DLC and the circle of all things that are expansions overlap, but they are neither two completely overlapping circles NOR one circle completely engulfed by another.

Straw.
Man.

If you stop acting like an insulted elder - we might have a productive conversation.

Ad hominem

I'm what you might call very good at not being emotionally involved in a debate - because it makes you miss points and you tend to become irrational once you boil over.

Non-sequitor.

This means you're not going to have the slightest effect feigning indignation. I consider it a pathetic tactic, really.

Ad hominem.

So, by arguing that expansion shouldn't be equated with DLC - because it's useful for communicating significant content is the same as hijacking the word and imposing my view on others?

Straw man.

No one is saying that DLC and expansions are exactly the same thing.

And no one is calling you out for stating that.

Oh, yeah, I'm beating you down because my arguments are annoyingly rational.

No, the baiting emoticons and the personal attacks (read: insults and ad hominems) are you 'beating me (and others) down.'

For not getting emotional, you sure express yourself in a very surly way.
 
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
160
Location
Rochester, MN
Well, if you're quite done now - I have no problem getting back on topic.

But if you keep spouting nonsense or challenge my points - I'll keep responding until such time as I deem it no longer about the points, but about getting personal so you can feel better.

Ok, so we're already there with a few of the usual suspects - but there might still be people here interested in the debate more than desperately interpreting what I say as selfish, arrogant, boring, aggressive or whatever convenient combination fits your agenda.

I'll be ready ;)
 
And, again, you are making WILD assumptions as to what 'people will expect' or what 'people are used to getting.'

I'm making a wild assumption that people will expect different things from an expansion? Some more, others less?

Yeah, that's crazy wild.

Not that age or experience should be used as an argument from authority, but just as an anecdotal example, I've been playing computer games since the TI-99 4A, with a good dose of my 'childhood' spent on a much beloved C-64. My 'expectation' of what an expansion is, based on experience, is probably vastly different than, say, a gamer who cut his PC gaming teeth on WoW and Mass Effect in like 2008.

Congratulations. Do you have a point? I've played games for 31 years with a major passion - so?

You play Temple of Apshai? I did. It had an 'expansion' - Dunjonquest. Do you know how SMALL that expansion was? It makes something like Honest Heart for F:NV seem GINORMOUS!

This expansion representing the norm would be your point? Otherwise I'm not sure I understand.

Or Icewind Dale's Heart of Winter (let alone Trials of the Luremaster) and how 'small' that would be compared to, say, Point Lookout for Fallout 3 or Citadel for Mass Effect 3? Yes, HoW would take LONGER to finish, but the content (and code) for either of those add-ons DWARFS what is in HoW.

TotL was a free download, so that's hardly relevant.

Heart of Winter had significant content in my opinion - but I'm not saying all expansions in the past had massive amounts of content. I don't know Point Lookout - but Citadel was definitely not what I would consider an expansion. But it was a pretty good piece of DLC.

I'm talking about the norm and how it's changing.

Do you understand?

So how are you measuring expansion? Amount of code? Cost to make? Added features? Cost? Hours of gameplay? I'd argue that you'd be hard-pressed to get any real consensus from a random polling of gamers at all.

I'm not interested in a real consensus. I know significant content when I see it, and I'm seeing it less and less from so-called expansions.

Still the same point.

Used to WHEN? 1980? 1995? 2011? And to WHOM?

I'd say before it became commonplace to deliver small amounts of content in piecemeal packages. I'm not sure why the exact moment in time is important to you - but I'd say somewhere between 2000 and 2005.

I'm talking about myself and no one else. Obviously, I assume a lot of people agree - like JDR seems to do, behind all his personal nonsense.

Significant content? You want to measure the amount of what you got in Dunjeonquest? In Tales of the Sword Coast? Really?

Why would I want to do that? I don't understand.

TotSC was a rather weak expansion - but even so, it's still more significant than a lot of Bioware's current "expansions" as they seem to be listed as.

It isn't rocket science because IT. ISN'T. SCIENCE. It is, at absolute best, speculative based on your personal experiences.

It's my opinion, that's true.

Not sure why my opinion has to be science.

Could you explain that?

And you are trying to impose that on others, telling people who disagree with you that they are living outside of reality (your reality, really) and that they are spouting (your words) bullshit.

No, I'm stating my opinion about equating DLC with expansions. I don't know why that would be imposing my views. I'm sharing my views.

Yes, I consider the claim that DLC and expansions are interchangeable bullshit.

I also consider Scientology to be bullshit - but I wouldn't try to convince people to drop it. I can have a negative opinion about something without wanting to change it for others.

Again, this is another straw man. If you don't understand why, then you don't understand the fallacies in your logic. No one is saying that anything and everything can be called an expansion. I gave some broad parameters, and if you wikipedia 'game expansion' or find bloggers ranting about expansion versus DLC (which is where I'm placing your views, with the blogging rantings, your welcome) what you'll see is that no one agrees. You can find people declaring, full-throated, that expansions must be equal in size to the original game. Few 'expansions' would count under that definition, and, honestly, many sequels.

Actually, that's exactly what's been said.

Point out whom you are arguing with that is making, as their point, that expansions can be any addition to a game. Who is making that argument?

HordeQ:

If anything, it's been over-rated for far too long. It simply means the game has received something that has added to it in extent, size, volume, or scope. In this case, adding a feature (or several) to the base system that was not there before is indeed an expansion. They're certainly not manipulating words…they're using the given definition, for what they're doing, properly.

ex·pan·sion [ik-span-shuh n]
noun
1. the act or process of expanding.

ex·pand [ik-spand]
verb (used with object)
1. to increase in extent, size, volume, scope, etc.


As in, if it expands content in ANY way - it's an expansion - which means DLC will always be an expansion.

JF:

An "expansion" is content that you download. "Downloadable content" is an expansion to the content of the game. Any valuations of size or quality that you attach to either term is completely subjective. Ergo, by using the word "expansion" this time, they didn't contradict themselves or change anything.

As in, it's perfectly OK to call anything DLC an expansion, because it's completely subjective. Meaning it's perfectly OK to call Horse Armor an expansion as well. He might not agree - but since it's COMPLETELY subjective - they're freely interchangeable.

No one other than you, to fight against it?

No one is arguing that.

Yes, and I pointed them out. At least have the decency to read the thread you're talking about as a whole.

No one is saying that DLC and expansions are exactly the same thing.

And no one is calling you out for stating that.

Again, yes, someone has said that. They might not have meant it, but they certainly said it.

No, the baiting emoticons and the personal attacks (read: insults and ad hominems) are you 'beating me (and others) down.'

Yeah, it must be rough - but I see you're being a tough cookie ;)

For not getting emotional, you sure express yourself in a very surly way.

I express myself in a way that you interpret as surly, sure.
 
Just trying to orient myself here ... is this about a video game?
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
14,952
I'm not going to close this thread YET!!!!! However, if it doesn't stay ON TOPIC in future I WILL!! Thank you gentlemen, now back to your regular scheduled postings. :)
 
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
12,826
Location
Australia
That's my cue!

Ok ok, I'll take my insulting, commonplace, know-it-all opinion about the concept of an expansion elsewhere.

Enjoy ;)
 
So....maybe I will get around to finishing the campaign now that save anywhere is in. Not to say that was the reason I haven't just that so many game get my attention.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
5,749
Back
Top Bottom