SecuROM Lawsuit in the Works

blatantninja said:

A little longer? How many people actually download 4-8GB DVD files?

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I know plenty of people who do that, but in Sweden people within cities who have an interest of leeching have 24mbit broadband.

Prime Junta said:

(Yes, I know, but something very like Moore's law does apply to bandwidth too. In 1992 my modem was 14,4 kbit, my Net connection now, which I got in 2006, is 1 Mbit. That means it's doubled about seven times, giving it a "Moore factor" of 24 months, which is close enough to the 18 given for microprocessors.)

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We have a bottleneck issue there. To get 24mbit you need to rebuild the telestations and even those living near those stations cannot get full 24mbit. For the next generation we are going to need a completely new infrastructure with fiberlines or something like that.

Atleast here broadband has gone backwards. 5 years ago we had unlimited 10mb. Now its limited to 3GB per day (just year ago it was 1GB). So sure the speed have raised but now we have download limits. If you d/l more than an hour or two your internet slows down to a speed of 9,6kb modem for 24 hours.

Next week Im planning to rebuild my PC and Im allready seeing nightmares about re-downloading all those steam games and all the other stuff. Windows updates alone will propably kill my connection for several days.

As for moore I dont think it will hold true forever. I.E the new production methods are reaching their limits soon. Radius of atom is ≈ 0,1 nm. The current building process of modern cpus is 45nm. Thats only 450 times the radius of atom! Soon the walls will be so thin that it wont be possible to make them any smaller (atleast if you build them from atoms).

In the UK 24mbps is common in cities, even in the countryside I can get 10mbps. They're already trialling 50mbps.

As mentioned, I don't think size is ever going to be a problem *unless* they introduce a mandatory charge per mb of download/upload. Even if that was tiny then it'd make some people think about how much they are downloading/sharing. But there's huge resistance to that, even if the overall bill would end up cheaper.

The alternative is to use something like TPM, which while would be easily bypassable in hardware, would at least require people to do more than just click on a link.

Prime Junta said:

By which time, by Moore's law, the average broadband connection will be about four times faster than the ones now -- which means that your pirated Blu-Ray torrent won't take any longer to download than your pirated DVD torrent today.

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Except in the US where 2/3 of the country is still in the internet dark ages!

JemyM said:

I know plenty of people who do that, but in Sweden people within cities who have an interest of leeching have 24mbit broadband.

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Interesting. Even with my bandwidth testing out in the 8-12mbit range over the years, I've never made a connection that downloaded more than 1mbit that I can think of.

blatantninja said:

Interesting. Even with my bandwidth testing out in the 8-12mbit range over the years, I've never made a connection that downloaded more than 1mbit that I can think of.

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Really? I download from Steam servers at 8mbps for example, and it's similar with many other places. Sure you're not being throttled?

Well I don't use Steam. When I use the NWN2 servers to update, it's fast, but nothing above 1mbit, and certainly not above 1mbit on any torrent I've ever done. Heck, I've even paid for the 'speedy' downloads on some of those file download sites and never gotten above 1mbit.

It's been like this on multiple different systems, Time Warner (current), Comcast, RCN, SBC DSL, etc.

And let's face it, when it comes to piracy, the main problem isn't in the US anyway.

blatantninja said:

Interesting. Even with my bandwidth testing out in the 8-12mbit range over the years, I've never made a connection that downloaded more than 1mbit that I can think of.

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I can actually download above one megabyte per second, and I have done so a couple of times. It's difficult to get if from one source though, but if I download multiple files from different sources I can get up to 1,5 megabyte per second and even more. In theory, I should be able to reach 24mbps (3mBps), but I do not think they managed to get higher than 16mbps.

Hedek said:

You'd still need to force an internet check once in a while to make sure graphic cards aren't physically altered, ie. how the PS1 was cracked. I'm thinking some sort of graphic card expiration date here: if you don't connect every 30 days with ATI or nVIDIA servers to update your drivers and for them to scan your graphic card, it stops running games. That's the only way to ensure anti-piracy methods always have a step ahead.

Basically, if you crack the game, the graphic card won't recognize it. If you crack the graphic card, the game won't recognize it. If you crack both the game and graphic card it should work at best 30 days. If you somehow manage to keep the graphic card working beyond that, playing any new/other game will be a problem.

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I think your graphics card solution is good but I'm still against the idea of having to connect to play games, that seems unfair.

I'd be happy if they can find a solution that allows users to play indefinitely without connecting to the internet at all, but once the user does connect to the internet for something else if it's after the 30 days they're notified that some things will stop working until they refresh their DRM. Maybe piggyback on something like the windows bit that notices when you're actually connected and picks up any updates, or something similar to that.

It would mean that someone could connect on one computer and download something cracked and then install it on another offline computer and play it without issue, but that would knock out a large chunk of the potential pirates.

Heck, if you're doing that why need a hardware solution at all? Have a unique product key, force periodic checking in online (if the internet is ever accessed) with that product key and if that key has been checked in from another ISP address it disables the product.

Benedict said:

Heck, if you're doing that why need a hardware solution at all? Have a unique product key, force periodic checking in online (if the internet is ever accessed) with that product key and if that key has been checked in from another ISP address it disables the product.

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That specific solution won't work, for any number of reasons -- dynamic IP addresses, people with laptops connecting from multiple points, and, of course, the fact that if someone cracks the keygen system, it'll cause mass deactivation of legitimate keys. The principle, however, is sound; it would be possible to devise a scheme like this that would drastically reduce abuse. Think of each legit copy of a game as an eBay user account: while it's possible to hijack accounts, the scale of the problem is orders of magnitude lower than mass torrenting of pirated games.

And, of course, this system is just as crackable as any other -- there are always ways of disabling the check, if you're clever enough. The whole idea with hardware IPR is to make this kind of thing more difficult. Combined with hardware IPR, it would be a tough nut to crack; due to various reasons explained here, hardware IPR on the PC won't fly, for the time being anyway.

I still think it's barking up the wrong tree, though, and the real solutions are found in business models that remove the incentives to pirate.

You'd still need to force an internet check once in a while to make sure graphic cards aren't physically altered, ie. how the PS1 was cracked. I'm thinking some sort of graphic card expiration date here: if you don't connect every 30 days with ATI or nVIDIA servers to update your drivers and for them to scan your graphic card, it stops running games. That's the only way to ensure anti-piracy methods always have a step ahead.

Basically, if you crack the game, the graphic card won't recognize it. If you crack the graphic card, the game won't recognize it. If you crack both the game and graphic card it should work at best 30 days. If you somehow manage to keep the graphic card working beyond that, playing any new/other game will be a problem.

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I don't think you even need the 30 day thing. Sure it could be cracked by physically altering the graphics card, but really, how many people would actually risk frying a graphics card, which may cost hundreds of dollars to play cracked games? Sure some, but the average pirate, who the companies are really trying to eliminate, probably isn't.

Sure, hacking a PS1 to play burned CD's was possible, but out of the millions of PS1's sold, how many actually had it done? How big was the 'market' of pirated PS1 games compared the 'market' of non-pirated games?

Prime Junta said:

That specific solution won't work

I still think it's barking up the wrong tree, though, and the real solutions are found in business models that remove the incentives to pirate.

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I thought it was too simple for them to overlook . . .

Tricky to completely remove incentives to pirate though. Ultimately the incentive of not paying any money is always going to be there unless they stop making any money, so it can't really be removed.

Without something that makes playing pirated games so much more awkward that it's easier for people to just buy the damned things the incentive will always be there.

blatantninja said:

I don't think you even need the 30 day thing. Sure it could be cracked by physically altering the graphics card, but really, how many people would actually risk frying a graphics card, which may cost hundreds of dollars to play cracked games? Sure some, but the average pirate, who the companies are really trying to eliminate, probably isn't.

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Agreed, my 30 day expiration idea could be kept as a worst case scenario in case simple DRM on graphic card isn't enough to deter pirates.

blatantninja said:

Sure, hacking a PS1 to play burned CD's was possible, but out of the millions of PS1's sold, how many actually had it done? How big was the 'market' of pirated PS1 games compared the 'market' of non-pirated games?

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Pretty big. What happened with the PS1 though is that at the time Sony had nothing to compare with. They went from a situation (before the PS1) where they were generating 0 revenues to a lot. And since the PS1 was so successful and had already exceeded all their expectations that they didn't really care about piracy... at the beginning.

Things drastically changed later on with the PS2 and the PS3. It was no longer about setting a foot on the market, it was about gaining more market shares and maximizing profits

I don't have figures about how many people cracked their PS1. But to give you an example, at the time (1996-2000) I was at school in France. In my classes of about 30 teens, roughly half of them had a PS1, ALL of which had eventually cracked their PS1. And whenever one of us would buy a new game we'd lend it to our friends to make copies.

So I'd dare say a huge portion of PS1 were cracked. But again things were really different back then. Selling a PS1 alone was already profitable. Today when they sell a PS3 or XBOX they're actually losing money until you buy 3 or 4 full priced games.

Benedict said:

Heck, if you're doing that why need a hardware solution at all? Have a unique product key, force periodic checking in online (if the internet is ever accessed) with that product key and if that key has been checked in from another ISP address it disables the product.

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Whenever all critical data required to play games are stored locally, cracking them is easy. There's nothing easier than removing a periodic online check. For an internet check to be any effective, the game must not be able to function without it.

One way to do that is storing characters and save games on the publisher's servers: if you don't connect you lose any advancement in the game.

Forcing an online check on a piece of hardware is easier, because you can put internal clocks on that hardware and the only way to stop them is to physically tweak the hardware, something most amateur pirates won't do (by amateur pirates I mean people who occasionally download a game or a cracked exe, not the people who actually reprogram the games to remove the securities).

Hedek said:

Pretty big. What happened with the PS1 though is that at the time Sony had nothing to compare with. They went from a situation (before the PS1) where they were generating 0 revenues to a lot. And since the PS1 was so successful and had already exceeded all their expectations that they didn't really care about piracy... at the beginning.

Things drastically changed later on with the PS2 and the PS3. It was no longer about setting a foot on the market, it was about gaining more market shares and maximizing profits

I don't have figures about how many people cracked their PS1. But to give you an example, at the time (1996-2000) I was at school in France. In my classes of about 30 teens, roughly half of them had a PS1, ALL of which had eventually cracked their PS1. And whenever one of us would buy a new game we'd lend it to our friends to make copies.

So I'd dare say a huge portion of PS1 were cracked. But again things were really different back then. Selling a PS1 alone was already profitable. Today when they sell a PS3 or XBOX they're actually losing money until you buy 3 or 4 full priced games.

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Interesting. Not to pound my chest too much as an American (maybe I just have lame friends, but given that most are engineers, I know they had the knowledge to mod their PS1's), but I get the impression that piracy in Europe and Asia is far worse than it is in the US. I can only think of one guy out of all the people I knew with a PS1 that modded it to play burned CD's. I only know a handful that modded their XBox's (myself included) and most of us did it so that we could us XBMC. Maybe we're the exception, I don't know, but my impression is that piracy is far worse outside the US than inside it.

blatantninja said:

Interesting. Not to pound my chest too much as an American (maybe I just have lame friends, but given that most are engineers, I know they had the knowledge to mod their PS1's), but I get the impression that piracy in Europe and Asia is far worse than it is in the US. I can only think of one guy out of all the people I knew with a PS1 that modded it to play burned CD's. I only know a handful that modded their XBox's (myself included) and most of us did it so that we could us XBMC. Maybe we're the exception, I don't know, but my impression is that piracy is far worse outside the US than inside it.

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Europe is getting totally out of hand when it comes to piracy. Eastern Europe more than western. And France is the worst in western Europe. Our Parliament just passed a policy (in November) allowing them to simply close down the internet connection of people who download pirated music/movies/games (you first receive a letter asking you to stop, and if you continue the Empire strikes).

As for the PS1, in tight groups such as school kids attending the same class, "good ideas" spread quickly. At the time, shops were literally cracking PS1 openly and the authorities didn't know/care. You'd bring your PS1, and for the equivalent of $30 of today, one hour later it was done. So one kid did it, it worked for him, and he told us about it, and a few months later we all had done it too.

But yeah, at the time teens were the only category of people pirating. Today it's everywhere, everyone, and all types of products. A grandma was recently caught because she had about 3000 songs from the 50's and 60's on her computer, and she didn't know that she was automatically sharing them whenever she was online. She quickly generated lots of peer connections and drew too much attention.

Rough summary translation (full finnish-english translators dont exist) from another board:

Game development, publishing, marketing, distribution and sales is not charity but business. Gaming is not everyman's right or means to survival. There is no need to try every published game unless one can afford to buy it.

Piracy is leeching and free riding. Somone always pays for the game; its either the honest buyers if the game sells well, or the publisher himself if it doesnt sell. DRM and the difficulties that come from it, should be blamed on the thiefs for whom they are developed for, not the publishers who are just trying to protect the (immaterial) rights of their own property.

If one takes an interest in gaming, it could be done little more respectfully. That means thinking ahead what one actually wants to play so much that is willing to pay for it and after that buy it. "Testing games" as it is used to defend piracy has no basis unless publisher has separately allowed it through demo or trial.

Publisher owns the game software and gives consumer a licence to it against the payment. If the conditions of the use agreement do not suit, an agreement does not need to be made or game played. Same is true when game is considered "crappy". The breaking of conditions is unambiguously a crime in which case one does not even need to use gimmicks on the defining "of the stealing".

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zakhal said:

DRM and the difficulties that come from it, should be blamed on the thiefs for whom they are developed for, not the publishers who are just trying to protect the (immaterial) rights of their own property.

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Except that when said DRM aren't effective at stopping thieves and only end up annoying legit customers, it's our right to complain, and ask them to find something else/better.

I went even further by suggesting other DRM methods.

On a personal level, I understand that DRM are necessary and that they can be inconvenient for legit customers. I am willing to cope with the inconvenience as long as they're effective.

But having to deal with secuROM crap because I was stupid enough to buy a game legally while thieves get a cracked secuROM-free version? This I can not accept.

Should secuROM really stop theft, I would accept it. It doesn't. I don't accept it.

blatantninja said:

my impression is that piracy is far worse outside the US than inside it.

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I wonder if some of that is down to foolish moves with release dates & distributors & translations. If they've got a 6 month wait for a game they want to buy it legally but can steal it now there's an incentive even for the honest & financially secure to become pirates.

And once someone's pirated something once I'd imagine it's far easier to do it again and again.

Its not only piracy but attitude towards it. On som bigger it seems like majority of players actually defend piracy whenever discussion is raised up. I have even had discussions about it with few known journalists (atleast here) on a unnamed gaming site and they actually defend piracy with the fact that games become better when only "good" games are bought and average ones are d/l for free.

I proposed them that they as journalists should not get any money for articles that are only "average".