I have no choice if a game like BG (and almost EVERY modern game) doesn't have turn-based combat ...
We Don't Need No Stinking Pause
- Thread starter Squeek
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I have no choice if a game like BG (and almost EVERY modern game) doesn't have turn-based combat ...
blatantninja
Resident Redneck Facist
So I assume you mean then that you would prefer something like ToEE where it is a true old school turn based?
Personally, I don't care for that, but it wouldn't seem that complicated to make an engine that could function like that or Real-time turn based. That would be cool to have the option of both.
Personally, I don't care for that, but it wouldn't seem that complicated to make an engine that could function like that or Real-time turn based. That would be cool to have the option of both.
Squeek
connoisseur of tidbits
I'd prefer a real-time game where tasks would be accomplished in a variety of ways other than just real-time. That way the game would do the pausing and not the player.
Maybe someone could make a game where the interface for things done in real time improves in relation with the character's advancement. So an adroit assassin, for example, might be able to quickly quaff down a potion when others couldn't.
Maybe the player should be offered an assortment of simulations for real-time tasks, so that he can select one more to his liking.
Maybe someone could make a game where the interface for things done in real time improves in relation with the character's advancement. So an adroit assassin, for example, might be able to quickly quaff down a potion when others couldn't.
Maybe the player should be offered an assortment of simulations for real-time tasks, so that he can select one more to his liking.
dteowner
Shoegazer
You know, Squeek, I really don't share your vision of the "perfect RPG", but you do come up with some very interesting game mechanics concepts. You'd undoubtedly get a lot of trolls whining about the "intentionally gimped interface", but that would be a unique way to model character development without requiring skills or XP (or at least keeping those numbers under the hood).
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Squeek
connoisseur of tidbits
Thanks, dteowner. The truth is I'm not particularly skilled at thinking conceptually; but after having sat across from, or having been on the other end of the line with, about a thousand (maybe more) real conceptual thinkers, all doing their best to explain their ideas to an average Joe like me, it starts to rub off.
And you're right about the trolls. I can still remember when that used to bother me a lot.
And you're right about the trolls. I can still remember when that used to bother me a lot.
magerette
Hedgewitch
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I agree, dte. When it comes to thinking outside the box, Squeek is on top of it. (? Was that a mixed metaphor?) 
Anyway, I was having a hard time visualizing how no pausing would work for combat situations and not turn into pure real time like non-party hack n slashes, when woges mentioned the passives in TQ. They actually do activate on a percentage basis, are a functioning part of the strategy and influence how you build your character, so I can see how something like that could work for a more imaginative and role-play focused cRPG.
Anyway, I was having a hard time visualizing how no pausing would work for combat situations and not turn into pure real time like non-party hack n slashes, when woges mentioned the passives in TQ. They actually do activate on a percentage basis, are a functioning part of the strategy and influence how you build your character, so I can see how something like that could work for a more imaginative and role-play focused cRPG.
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blatantninja
Resident Redneck Facist
I like the idea of being able to do actions quicker as your skill set improves. That could be very interesting.
Yes, you are right. If a game would give me the choice to have combat turn-based of something else, I would go for the turn-based option, because i like to plan things.
Here's something people may not already know - the original design for Baldur's Gate did NOT feature the ability to pause its real-time D&D combat. Originally, BioWare hoped that the AI scripting engine would be sophisticated enough that characters in battles would essentially be competent enough to fight effectively on their own, using spells, etc. as appropriate.
It was actually Interplay that told BioWare that there was no way that scripting alone would work, and they had to include the ability to pause/issue commands. Considering the BG games are constant pause-fests, it would have been disastrous if that feature wasn't included (or they would have had to opt for a much simplified iteration of the D&D rules, ala BG Dark Alliance). Thanks anyway - I'd rather not have a simplified action-RPG
It was actually Interplay that told BioWare that there was no way that scripting alone would work, and they had to include the ability to pause/issue commands. Considering the BG games are constant pause-fests, it would have been disastrous if that feature wasn't included (or they would have had to opt for a much simplified iteration of the D&D rules, ala BG Dark Alliance). Thanks anyway - I'd rather not have a simplified action-RPG
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blatantninja
Resident Redneck Facist
Sounds kind of like Ultima VII (except that no one else can cast magic except the main character). As much as I loved that game, combat in it was a bit of a downer compared to the previous three.
Squeek
connoisseur of tidbits
Maybe wizards should have the power to pause the game. Maybe it should pause when clerics establish contact with their diety. Maybe bards should be able to influence the laws of physics in their imaginary worlds.
They say the game slows down for experienced quarterbacks, and maybe that's how these games should work -- they could begin to slow down, somehow, as your characters gain expertise.
If the player were directing the characters instead of controlling them, he could direct them to use extreme caution in situations where he felt he needed more time. That might achieve a kinder, gentler sort of pause, one that would be less prone to break immersion.
They say the game slows down for experienced quarterbacks, and maybe that's how these games should work -- they could begin to slow down, somehow, as your characters gain expertise.
If the player were directing the characters instead of controlling them, he could direct them to use extreme caution in situations where he felt he needed more time. That might achieve a kinder, gentler sort of pause, one that would be less prone to break immersion.
vanedor
Keeper of the Watch
Interesting.
And finally, that's how they(or actually, Obsidian, but it's the little brother) did it with NWN2. As far as I know, most people who play that game let the ai control their «npc» in their group.
I always thought the way it worked in the infiniti games was much better than it was in NWN2. In NWN2, trying to control your group is far more difficult, tedious. You have to juggle with the ai and all.
TOEE had a lot of potential... but unfortunately, they ruined that game with a poor, if not absent, story and basically no dialogue. As soon as you entered in the TOEE the game became a pure repetitive slashfest and even the best combat system could not transform this into a great game.
magerette
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Take a look at this Rise of the Argonauts interview when you have a minute, Squeek, and see if they're making any sense to you along the lines you've suggested--they're going for no health bars, a minimal HUD, menu entry restricted to one area(base) in the game, and a lot of passives/automatic actions in combat. Does this fall in with what you've been suggesting? I admit in this game it sounds more like a "dumbed down" approach to me,--which your suggestions certainly don't-- but I could be reading it wrong.
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Squeek
connoisseur of tidbits
Not really, no. I like the idea of reconsidering game mechanics, but I'm suggesting more complexity, not less.
I do like the idea of changing the standard health bar, though. Not for the sake of simplifying it, but to make combat more interesting and more of a challenge. And I like the idea of being able to parry (or to strike non-lethal blows to give a defeated opponent a chance to catch on and yield).
I've always thought Gods should play a bigger role in fantasy RPG. It's a mistake to make them too powerful, though. Mortals should have advantages over Gods.
magerette
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Well, that's definitely a contrarian view--any specific advantages you had in mind? Altering the tension between mortals and immortal beings--gods or demons, seems a radical departure from the normal motivators of struggling against the odds--and the satisfaction that comes with beating them.
Of course, those are conventions that have definitely been milked by almost every game universe, to the point of cliche. Making the Gods more vulnerable might actually be a more interesting contest.
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Squeek
connoisseur of tidbits
Steven Erikson does a great job of depicting Gods in his "The Malazan Book of the Fallen" series. They can be Elder Gods who may be forgotten, newly-ascended Gods who may be unaware of their change in status, enigmatic mortals with power Gods don't understand or individuals who don't fit into any known categories at all.
In the place he's imagined, even the strongest Gods are uncertain about their own source of power, their place in the world and where things are headed. Mortals can ascend, gradually or suddenly, and in ways that are offen difficult to know.
Gods show caution, because their world is uncertain, even to them. Some mortals are an enigma to Gods the same sort of ways Gods are an enigma to mortals. And that's very cool.
In the place he's imagined, even the strongest Gods are uncertain about their own source of power, their place in the world and where things are headed. Mortals can ascend, gradually or suddenly, and in ways that are offen difficult to know.
Gods show caution, because their world is uncertain, even to them. Some mortals are an enigma to Gods the same sort of ways Gods are an enigma to mortals. And that's very cool.
azraelck
Angel of Cookies!
Where'd the god discussion come in at?
Personally, I haven't been to thrilled with hardly any depiction of the divine in any of these RPGs. And no, I'm not bringing real world religious views into them.
I've always looked at it that each culture should have their own religious sects, not one all-encompassing religion with a god for every little thing. The god of Farts and Flatulence! The god of Morning Amnesia and Other Things That Happen In The Morning That We Won't Talk About! Bah!
Where's the race of winged humanoids whose religion revolves around the sun and moon; the one who does have a full patheon of gods and goddesses, the other who follows a big lizard, and the one that follows a dog. I prefer a more real-world approach; each culture having their own religion that they follow. Which I have never seen done in any RPG world to date,
Personally, I haven't been to thrilled with hardly any depiction of the divine in any of these RPGs. And no, I'm not bringing real world religious views into them.
I've always looked at it that each culture should have their own religious sects, not one all-encompassing religion with a god for every little thing. The god of Farts and Flatulence! The god of Morning Amnesia and Other Things That Happen In The Morning That We Won't Talk About! Bah!
Where's the race of winged humanoids whose religion revolves around the sun and moon; the one who does have a full patheon of gods and goddesses, the other who follows a big lizard, and the one that follows a dog. I prefer a more real-world approach; each culture having their own religion that they follow. Which I have never seen done in any RPG world to date,
Squeek
connoisseur of tidbits
The segway was in the comparison with "Rise of the Argonauts," which is being discussed in the News Comments section.
Good point about gods being underutilized, azraelck. There's so much potential for creativity there. Gods are convenient in terms of history, culture and politics. You would think they would be a mainstay of RPG storytelling.
Maybe devs think parents might disapprove?
Americans take separation of state and church to extremes sometimes!!
Deus Ex Machina was a staple of Ancient Greek Drama and myth, so its underuse in games is a good topic for discussion. Perhaps some feel that needing the help of a god lessens the importance of the main player character!!
Deus Ex Machina was a staple of Ancient Greek Drama and myth, so its underuse in games is a good topic for discussion. Perhaps some feel that needing the help of a god lessens the importance of the main player character!!